Let's put it to a vote: Do we need two game settings? (Sim vs online)

[ForUntoOblivionSoar∞]

Re: Let's put it to a vote: Do we need two game settings? (Sim vs online)

As Underdog said, there's no reason for anyone to say no to this lol. Everyone gets what they want. EA has long been behind the times in terms of innovation, they have to catch up in the "customization of experience" area. Of course the key is what the big wigs want and will force the devs to focus on.

Follow what 2K has done (and The Show, from what I've read. Not a PS4 owner). Online should be a completely different experience from offline and there should be a sim/casual option. We've had the "even teams" option for who knows how long, I can't imagine it'll be difficult to implement a "casual vs sim" or "online vs offline" toggle. Hell, with "even teams" you already have your casual/online settings for the most part. Really what this boils down to is that we need sliders that 1) work 2) work as intended/labeled.

I don't know if we'll ever get it since it seems like it will require a rebuild of the sliders and the consensus is that there are "hidden" sliders and legacy issues - we all know that certain sliders don't impact what they're labeled as (see the big QBA controversy going on right now). We need to QBA to effect the amount of inaccurate throws from the QB and that's it, it needs to globally lower accuracy ratings. It can't secretly impact the CPU's playcalling, the QB's aggressiveness or the CPU WR's ability to get open.

So really, in short we do not need two separate settings. Sure, that will be nice and will be icing on the cake, two different preset/defaults. We need sliders that work properly though. Without properly working sliders I don't think the concept of two different game "types" is possible.

This was close to a non-issue out of the box. Sliders worked pretty well and I was having a blast. I played more seasons in franchise August through mid October than I have in the last dozen years combined. Then Patch 2 came...

WOAH WOAH WOAH. Everyone here seems to think only offline players want sim. That's FALSE. There are countless online leagues with house rules designed to force sim play. Countless online leagues who try to make it as sim as possible.

So a sim setting should NOT just be limited to either offline or online play. It should be a toggle that you choose. Maybe when you set up a CFM, have the option in the same place where you'd choose which roster to use, for example.

[ForUntoOblivionSoar∞]

Re: Let's put it to a vote: Do we need two game settings? (Sim vs online)

I'm personally in the "I don't care" camp as an end user, but from the game development and post-release support perspective I can think of several very good reasons to keep the entire population of Madden locked into a single high-level gameplay configuration:

• ability for game designers to track and measure gameplay balance using telemetry and quickly identify issues
• ability for game designers and developers to deliver title updates and tuning updates which address gameplay balance issues in a timely fashion
• desire to avoid an explicit schism of the Madden user base between online franchise and traditional competitive modes (Ultimate Team, Draft Champions, online ranked)

Again, as an end user I personally don't care and I have no reason to oppose more options for others to better enjoy the game, but from the developer's perspective this isn't at all a cut-and-dry decision.

The explicit schism already exists... You sound like the guy in the meeting room ruining the game despite the best efforts of wonderful guys like Clint and Rex.

[Hooe]

Re: Let's put it to a vote: Do we need two game settings? (Sim vs online)

The explicit schism already exists... You sound like the guy in the meeting room ruining the game despite the best efforts of wonderful guys like Clint and Rex.

I'm "ruining the game" by suggesting that developers might want to be able to: easily measure the entire player base's overall skill level in the game relative to real-world statistics targets; tune their game quickly, efficiently, and with the least amount of redundant effort possible in response to conclusions drawn from those measurements; and finally, bridge the divide between the two discrete factions in the Madden player base to foster a more cohesive online community and thus improve the total online experience in the game for all players?

Seriously?

[Hooe]

Re: Let's put it to a vote: Do we need two game settings? (Sim vs online)

I agree with all of that. But here's the question. It looks like the feedback the developers are getting feedback that random events or dice rolls aren't popular in regards to qb accuracy and especially dropped passes. What is everyone's take when you call the right defense. Are your defensive backs supposed to be swatting the ball and picking passes or just put the user in position to make a play. If an ai defender drops a pick or misses a swat, isn't that a dice roll.

The game will never get entirely away from dice rolls. They must be there to create an experience which A - responds to various sets of player ratings, and B - can create outcomes which are not 100% predictable. Without random dice rolls, Luke Kuechly and his 99 TKL rating always wins against Adrian Peterson and his 95 TRK, regardless of user input. That obviously shouldn't be the case.

The dice rolls the game developers don't want to add into the game are areas where there is no control mechanic to influence the outcome. Take bad snaps, for example. If there were a game mechanic around snapping the ball in shotgun which a user could master to never have a bad snap (regardless of player ratings; obviously this level of mastery would be higher when using lower-rated players, but the ability to master the system would exist nevertheless), then you'd likely see bad snaps added into the game. Just doing random bad snaps based on dice rolls with nothing the user can do to prevent them from happening? That's no bueno.

To answer your question, what I think Tiburon wants is what the current setup mostly already is - the CPU players will play assignment football and make the obvious plays with respect to ratings and traits (for example, CPU receivers with the "Possession Catch" trait will attempt possession catches near the sidelines while receivers without the trait won't). Meanwhile, the user will have the ability to override the CPU logic to execute any available command on the controller, possibly making said player perform better than his perceived ratings and traits would otherwise dictate as a result of user input (for example, a user-controlled receiver without the "Possession Catch" trait successfully executing a possession catch near the sideline as a result of user input).

[ForUntoOblivionSoar∞]

Re: Let's put it to a vote: Do we need two game settings? (Sim vs online)

I'm "ruining the game" by suggesting that developers might want to be able to: easily measure the entire player base's overall skill level in the game relative to real-world statistics targets; tune their game quickly, efficiently, and with the least amount of redundant effort possible in response to conclusions drawn from those measurements; and finally, bridge the divide between the two discrete factions in the Madden player base to foster a more cohesive online community and thus improve the total online experience in the game for all players?

Seriously?

Um, unifying is exactly how you would LOWER the online experience for all players. And what I mean by "ruining it" is you're thinking in terms of efficiency rather than quality; i. e. like a corporate wallet rather than an artist.

Look man, the fact is there is and always will be an uncrossable chasm between tourney style players and sim players. Trying to bridge that gulf might be COST EFFECTIVE, but it would in the end hurt the quality of the game for both sides.

Why? Because the primary concerns for both factions are diametrically opposed to each other. Finding a middle ground merely places both far away from what the other wants. Mathematically speaking, the total distance from an ideal game in your philosophy would be the same total distance from ideal for one group as if you had chosen only catering to one (or more concisely, the sum of the distances between 0 and 1 plus the distance betwee 1 and 2 is the same as the distance between 0 and 2.).

The only way to maximize satisfaction for both factions is to simply allocate more resources to the game so that both types of play can be created.


Because again, due to the fact that the two are diametrically opposed, a middle ground is far away from BOTH conceptions of ideal.

[Hooe]

Re: Let's put it to a vote: Do we need two game settings? (Sim vs online)

Look man, the fact is there is and always will be an uncrossable chasm between tourney style players and sim players.

This is where we fundamentally disagree. I don't think that there is an "uncrossable chasm" at all. A difference in thinking, sure, but it's plenty reconcilable. This isn't the dramatic drawing of war lines that some in the sim community apparently want it to be and it never was.

Which, to rope this back to the topic post, is why I personally don't really care either way if the game adds discrete "tournament" and "simulation" settings. If Tiburon adds that option, cool; if they don't, I'm also cool. I already enjoy Madden as it presently exists, so I'll play the game either way. If it were my decision to make, however, then drawing on my experience as a professional game developer I would hesitate to add the option. I'm not convinced that it's the most effective way to develop the game long-term, speaking to the quality of the product from a holistic perspective over its entire life cycle, for reasons I've already stated.

[ForUntoOblivionSoar∞]

Re: Let's put it to a vote: Do we need two game settings? (Sim vs online)

This is where we fundamentally disagree. I don't think that there is an "uncrossable chasm" at all. A difference in thinking, sure, but it's plenty reconcilable. This isn't the dramatic drawing of war lines that some in the sim community apparently want it to be and it never was.

Which, to rope this back to the topic post, is why I personally don't really care either way if the game adds discrete "tournament" and "simulation" settings. If Tiburon adds that option, cool; if they don't, I'm also cool. I already enjoy Madden as it presently exists, so I'll play the game either way. If it were my decision to make, however, then drawing on my experience as a professional game developer I would hesitate to add the option. I'm not convinced that it's the most effective way to develop the game long-term, speaking to the quality of the product from a holistic perspective over its entire life cycle, for reasons I've already stated.

The problem is that the "tourney" people will nevwr be okay with a user controlled wr dropping a pass, or a cpu controlled defender blowing a coverage, and things like that. All the things we see on Sunday. How is that something that could possibly be reconciled without a setting that gives the option to disable or enable realistic NFL things of that nature?

Any other compromise will just be a failure to attain one or the other view of game play.

[N51_rob]

Re: Let's put it to a vote: Do we need two game settings? (Sim vs online)

It's commonly been reference to but I don't recall seeing an actual OS poll on the matter.

Do we need to have two game settings in Madden: SIM and ONLINE
*They could obviously be called whatever EA wanted to label them as*

To put the difference into simple terms I will define SIM as a mode where things outside of the user's control will happen (bad throws/fumbles/drops/missed blocks/bad routes/FG's much harder) and ONLINE as a mode where none of those examples happen outside of the user's control.

There seems to be two very different schools of thought out there and I'm asking OS if it's time to start heavily pushing for a separation of two game mode settings so each type could have their own rendition of the game they want.

Do we need this. I guess we do given that EA has gone away from some of the options and features that used to exist. In one of the NHLs a few years back you used to be able to select which tuner version you wanted to use for your game. It was one of those lesser know but highly effective feature/options that used to exist.

Feel like tuner 1.20 make scoring goals too easy, roll your game back to 1.10 and go nuts. I really think that if EA can't deliver this sim/casual setting or whatever something like this would be a welcome transition piece for me personally.

[jfsolo]

Re: Let's put it to a vote: Do we need two game settings? (Sim vs online)

This is where we fundamentally disagree. I don't think that there is an "uncrossable chasm" at all. A difference in thinking, sure, but it's plenty reconcilable. This isn't the dramatic drawing of war lines that some in the sim community apparently want it to be and it never was.

Which, to rope this back to the topic post, is why I personally don't really care either way if the game adds discrete "tournament" and "simulation" settings. If Tiburon adds that option, cool; if they don't, I'm also cool. I already enjoy Madden as it presently exists, so I'll play the game either way. If it were my decision to make, however, then drawing on my experience as a professional game developer I would hesitate to add the option. I'm not convinced that it's the most effective way to develop the game long-term, speaking to the quality of the product from a holistic perspective over its entire life cycle, for reasons I've already stated.

Unless you're adding exponentially improved slider tuning/functionality, then you would be relegating many of the simulation players to a gameplay experience that is permanently lacking in so many elements of real life football. Luckily though it seems as if Clint and Rex aren't inclined to be so ruthlessly utilitarian. Hopefully for those of us in the "doodoo happens crowd", they can convince the suits.

[Postman17]

Re: Let's put it to a vote: Do we need two game settings? (Sim vs online)

I want Sim also but a lot of ppl on here want a sim mode off line. This is where I disagree. Just as many sim ppl play on line and dont play off line because it just truly boring. If They do that then my days of playing Madden will certainly be done. Now if they can make sim online mode,I am all in but just to have it off line will kill this for me. I dont get why ppl dont play online. I run into more sim games than I run into cheesy players. I just diagree with just sim off line experience I want that experience across the board because I love playing online.

[howboutdat]

Re: Let's put it to a vote: Do we need two game settings? (Sim vs online)

So here is what i dont get.Its ok to make an entire separate game and even release it around the same time, but it seems we may be asking " too much" of them to just add separate modes of ways to play Madden? ( based on a few comments)

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/ea-responds-to-criticism-of-titanfall-2-releasing-/1100-6445019/?ftag=GSS-05-10aaa0b

"Both games "fulfill very different motivations in what a player is looking for," EA CEO Andrew Wilson says."


Is that not what we are asking for them to create for madden, but instead of making a dif game , just give us an option for another mode of gameplay?


Seems they are ok doing this with shooters , should be willing to do it for the only NFL game we can buy currently.

[adembroski]

Re: Let's put it to a vote: Do we need two game settings? (Sim vs online)

The utter inability to recognize their own cognative dissonance is a prerequisite for any job at EA that requires a tie.

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[RoDogz17]

Re: Let's put it to a vote: Do we need two game settings? (Sim vs online)

This is why I'm so mad 2K can't make NFL games anymore.. It'd be good to have a choice !! Let Madden be the arcade/casual game for the average person and have 2K be for the more hardcore sim/realism players (like myself).. EA care more about the average crowd than the hardcore sim crowd.. I mean look at the "big new features" CFM got this year..

Speaking of CFM it pisses me off they've just pretty much thrown three game modes into the one (lazy) and said there you go.. Superstar/Franchise/Owner should respectively be three separate game modes.. I couldn't give a **** about MUT or Ultimate Team.. One reason why NBA 2K is so popular is all the different game modes they have.. Sick of My Career? Go play My GM.. Sick of My GM? Try My League.. Sick of My League? Go try My Park..

I mean NHL and FIFA have separate modes for their Superstar/Franchise modes yet madden gets stuck with this CFM bull**** that hasn't changed for the last 5 years..

[ForUntoOblivionSoar∞]

Re: Let's put it to a vote: Do we need two game settings? (Sim vs online)

This is where we fundamentally disagree. I don't think that there is an "uncrossable chasm" at all. A difference in thinking, sure, but it's plenty reconcilable. This isn't the dramatic drawing of war lines that some in the sim community apparently want it to be and it never was.

Which, to rope this back to the topic post, is why I personally don't really care either way if the game adds discrete "tournament" and "simulation" settings. If Tiburon adds that option, cool; if they don't, I'm also cool. I already enjoy Madden as it presently exists, so I'll play the game either way. If it were my decision to make, however, then drawing on my experience as a professional game developer I would hesitate to add the option. I'm not convinced that it's the most effective way to develop the game long-term, speaking to the quality of the product from a holistic perspective over its entire life cycle, for reasons I've already stated.

Do you think tourney people would ever be okay with CPU controlled defensive backs of the the USER's team blowing coverages every once in a while? What about WRS dropping passes, including when the user controlls them?

I would say no, and making this slider adjustable (i. e. sim settings versus casual/tourney settings) is pretty much the only way to have a game that has both features. Without such a slider adjustability, no matter how diplomatic you want to describe it, someone is going to ultimately be unhappy with the product. This is what I mean by chasm.


Sim people (real sim people, not casual people who think they are sim- i. e. people wanting players the user isn't controlling to always do their assignments like a robot do NOT want actual sim ball) are not ever going to be satisfied until "If it's in the game, it's in the game" accurately reflects the prodict. By contrast, tourney and casual people will never be satisfied with a game that actually reflects the old Madden motto.

There just isn't going to be a way to FULLY satisfy both groups without some sort of working slider adjustments.