Clint Oldenburg Talks Blocking, Mechanics, and "Broken" Zones (T4Verts)

[deu22ces]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Talks Blocking, Mechanics, and "Broken" Zones (T4Verts)

Khaliib, I'm not personally disagreeing with you. I have 'felt' that way too. But, Clint has expressly denied that there is any difference in how the game plays based on the mode. Supposedly All-Pro default in Play Now is the same game play as All-pro default in CFM. So what's what there?

[howboutdat]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Talks Blocking, Mechanics, and "Broken" Zones (T4Verts)

I think most here can agree that gameplay in Practice Mode plays different than Play Now, and gameplay in Play Now plays different from CFM.

There was no gameplay inside CFM at EA Play, and most GC's who went down to the capture probably did Gameplay outside of CFM.

We haven't seen a lot of CFM gameplay footage, not to say something is/isn't happening in CFM also, but I'm just thinking with little CFM footage, wouldn't any "Sim" player want to see what's going on inside CFM and not jump so quickly on the "patch this, fix that" bandwagon of what's being seen in vid's of a bunch of Play Now games?

There's been this whole debate on Comp vs Sim preferences going on.

Are you asking them to tinker/tune/patch based on what's going on in videos of mostly Play Now games?

I don't want anything touched dealing with CFM based on what may/may not be occuring outside that mode.

If you are a "Sim" player who spends most of gameplay inside CFM, when you hear "play it first or play it for yourself", you should be screaming with your loudest voice, yes!!!

You should want to get your hands on it first before they start monkeying around inside the mode.

There's no one who can decide my Madden experience better than me, and I do not want them tinkering with the mode I play in (CFM) based on someone else's interpretations who plays outside the mode.

The alternative is to let Play Now players speak/decide the changes in CFM.

"We" (CFM) now have the abitlity to have the game looked at from our perspective.

If those same issues occur inside CFM, then let's deal with them.
But let any changes be based on "CFM players" seeing these occurnces "inside" CFM.

So yeah, you should agree to hold off making changes that could affect CFM until you play for yourself because one tweak can have a huge ripple affect inside CFM that Play Now gamers don't/won't have to deal with.

i get what your saying to an extent, but from what i understand, alot of the videos people see issues in , are in SIM mode, which is default play mode in CFM correct? So they are playing the gameplay style that is in CFM. The ratings on players may be slightly dif from play now to CFM, but its not that big a difference. If players are not covering areas they should, i have a hard time seeing that just because its being played in CFM all the sudden they going to play right.

maybe your right, but personally i dont know that just because its being played outside of CFM means its just going to magically play right. Here is to hoping i guess


Even if CFM played right, his statements still make it sound like maybe there really isnt a problem with zones and in the footage we have seen, it clearly seems to issues , especially over the middle of the field. My point was, we dont have to play it to see those things clearly on a video.Dont deny it, just fix the issues .IF it plays right in CFM, then they should be able to play CFM, H2H Play Now , Mut on their end and see the difference and thus not change CFM somehow.

[khaliib]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Talks Blocking, Mechanics, and "Broken" Zones (T4Verts)

Khaliib, I'm not personally disagreeing with you. I have 'felt' that way too. But, Clint has expressly denied that there is any difference in how the game plays based on the mode. Supposedly All-Pro default in Play Now is the same game play as All-pro default in CFM. So what's what there?

Gameplay difference as in mechanics that only function inside CFM that have actual in-game affects that Practice/Play Now don't utilize.

In Play Now games, the AI player will play according to his ratings the same every time you load a new game up.

In CFM, that same AI player has CFM specific mechanics applied to him that will manipulate his ratings up/down from game to game (in some cases dynamically over the course of the game), there by making him/other AI players play differently.

Some include...
- XP Point Slider settings
- Player Game Goals
- Coach Lvl
- Progression/Regression formulas
- other hidden formulas

So from a game build point, all the same.

But, from a Gameplay viewpoint, there are mechanism intilized inside CFM that force dynamic elements upon gameplay, that do not have the same influence during Play Now/Practice games.

This is what I meant by "plays differently".

The premise I want to be the focus though is that any changes to CFM be based on the feedback from what "CFM players" have noticed from their experience inside the mode.

[khaliib]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Talks Blocking, Mechanics, and "Broken" Zones (T4Verts)

i get what your saying to an extent, but from what i understand, alot of the videos people see issues in , are in SIM mode, which is default play mode in CFM correct? So they are playing the gameplay style that is in CFM. The ratings on players may be slightly dif from play now to CFM, but its not that big a difference. If players are not covering areas they should, i have a hard time seeing that just because its being played in CFM all the sudden they going to play right.

maybe your right, but personally i dont know that just because its being played outside of CFM means its just going to magically play right. Here is to hoping i guess


Even if CFM played right, his statements still make it sound like maybe there really isnt a problem with zones and in the footage we have seen, it clearly seems to issues , especially over the middle of the field. My point was, we dont have to play it to see those things clearly on a video.Dont deny it, just fix the issues .IF it plays right in CFM, then they should be able to play CFM, H2H Play Now , Mut on their end and see the difference and thus not change CFM somehow.

I hear you.

Just remember he mentioned that these vid's are using a base roster that's more balanced.

Sim Style is ratings based and this balanced roster may in fact, be why we see such open zones.
The ZCV ratings across the board in this roster may be at levels that are producing what is perceived to be "broken" gameplay.

It would've helped a lot to know if the teams rosters are in-line with those on the internet.

He openly acknowledge that they need to look into AI QB Pocket Awareness, meaning something may be off in this area.

But dealing with Zone Coverage we've seen, I would venture that there's probably info we're not considering or know about for him to basically say, put it on pause until you play it, instead of lumping it in with the QB issue.

Either way, I believe we're going to enjoy the game.

I actually want to try MUT play as an TE on Off, and corner on Def.

[War24]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Talks Blocking, Mechanics, and "Broken" Zones (T4Verts)

Really, this is a bigger issue then zone defenses being/not being broken. Now it's a matter of trust. EA has these game changers fly out a try the game out and it was getting great reviews; then they go back and now the game is playing different. Now it looks like you played the guys you flew out and supported your game to the fans on social media and your lifelong fans.

Let's say now, that EA reports patching zones if needed, it can be taken out again later and we're stuck with the game. After you make a purchase they already make their money and now we're the ones getting screwed. Patches/tuners whichever one you want allow for too much room for error and mediocrity at times. The wifey works for a major software company and patches/updates are used to correct glitches or errors that made it past beta testers and hackers somehow before release. Glaring issues with defense which is 50% of sports is just ridiculous.

I'm not blaming Rex or anyone else in particular, but sometimes it seems marketing just wants to make these dumb-downed games for Johnny Casual. What happened to learning, practicing, and becoming skilled in something; like everything else we do in life. Guess, we're at point in time where working hard and earning s*** doesn't matter anymore (From beast mode to Durant mode). EA, I don't question your work ethic, but have some pride about what you put out man!

No trust, no bucks. Plain and simple.

[T4VERTS]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Talks Blocking, Mechanics, and "Broken" Zones (T4Verts)

Really, this is a bigger issue then zone defenses being/not being broken. Now it's a matter of trust. EA has these game changers fly out a try the game out and it was getting great reviews; then they go back and now the game is playing different. Now it looks like you played the guys you flew out and supported your game to the fans on social media and your lifelong fans.

Let's say now, that EA reports patching zones if needed, it can be taken out again later and we're stuck with the game. After you make a purchase they already make their money and now we're the ones getting screwed. Patches/tuners whichever one you want allow for too much room for error and mediocrity at times. The wifey works for a major software company and patches/updates are used to correct glitches or errors that made it past beta testers and hackers somehow before release. Glaring issues with defense which is 50% of sports is just ridiculous.

I'm not blaming Rex or anyone else in particular, but sometimes it seems marketing just wants to make these dumb-downed games for Johnny Casual. What happened to learning, practicing, and becoming skilled in something; like everything else we do in life. Guess, we're at point in time where working hard and earning s*** doesn't matter anymore (From beast mode to Durant mode). EA, I don't question your work ethic, but have some pride about what you put out man!

No trust, no bucks. Plain and simple.

So a couple things. The EA Play build was an early build. They found bugs that they changed that made the same play differently. They didn't set out to make them easier as people think, it was an indirect result of fixes to code. They do value their game changers but it's only one piece of a larger feedback loop. They have to look at multiple things because simply going off user feedback can have people fall prey to group think and placebo effects.

[timhere1970]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Talks Blocking, Mechanics, and "Broken" Zones (T4Verts)

Really, this is a bigger issue then zone defenses being/not being broken. Now it's a matter of trust. EA has these game changers fly out a try the game out and it was getting great reviews; then they go back and now the game is playing different. Now it looks like you played the guys you flew out and supported your game to the fans on social media and your lifelong fans.

Let's say now, that EA reports patching zones if needed, it can be taken out again later and we're stuck with the game. After you make a purchase they already make their money and now we're the ones getting screwed. Patches/tuners whichever one you want allow for too much room for error and mediocrity at times. The wifey works for a major software company and patches/updates are used to correct glitches or errors that made it past beta testers and hackers somehow before release. Glaring issues with defense which is 50% of sports is just ridiculous.

I'm not blaming Rex or anyone else in particular, but sometimes it seems marketing just wants to make these dumb-downed games for Johnny Casual. What happened to learning, practicing, and becoming skilled in something; like everything else we do in life. Guess, we're at point in time where working hard and earning s*** doesn't matter anymore (From beast mode to Durant mode). EA, I don't question your work ethic, but have some pride about what you put out man!

No trust, no bucks. Plain and simple.

It is the lack of competition that drives the mediocrity. Madden has an exclusive license so they are aiming for the middle of the bell curve and everything else is just cost benefit analysis. It is not just madden though, there is a lot less competition in sports gaming in general. No college football, no college basketball, you can't get a real baseball game on xbox. One major basketball game, one major football game, one major baseball game. Sports video games grew by leaps and bounds in the old days because everybody was trying to get in on the action. Those days are gone.

[Americas Team]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Talks Blocking, Mechanics, and "Broken" Zones (T4Verts)

Realistic data to back tuning?! That's awesome. Finally.

So is that not the approach of all tuning? He made it seem novel and done to preempt potential hardcore opinions

Instead of taking pass rush data from one guy, how about take the data for DL/QB pressures in general.

[War24]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Talks Blocking, Mechanics, and "Broken" Zones (T4Verts)

So a couple things. The EA Play build was an early build. They found bugs that they changed that made the same play differently. They didn't set out to make them easier as people think, it was an indirect result of fixes to code. They do value their game changers but it's only one piece of a larger feedback loop. They have to look at multiple things because simply going off user feedback can have people fall prey to group think and placebo effects.

What you stated makes sense. No one wants to play a buggy game, but if you patch or place something in code that significantly limits a portion of the game that is 50% of the experience that is a problem. It's like playing GOW III or something and enemies are attacking you or vice versa and you can't fight back, there's no fun in that.

We all won't know for sure what the final build will be like till more people get their hands on the game when released on EA Access. From what I'm hearing so far, I'm not so optimistic anymore with sports games in general and very hesitant about making a purchase.

[deu22ces]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Talks Blocking, Mechanics, and "Broken" Zones (T4Verts)

ok, so I'm really trying to be 'nice' and 'understanding' of Madden's ratings issues. And I really do appreciate Clint. He's the only Dev I 'follow' as he drops little golden nuggets about ratings if you pay attention. And I know he's not at fault for what happens beyond his scope, but some things I'm hearing are just unbelievable.

When he's talking about the pass rusher 'boost' to catch up to a much faster player (14:46). He says it's a "funny story"...that some time ago 'someone' put in a code to give defenders in a pass rush scenario a boost to "unrealistic levels" because of what they "think" was community complaints. It went undetected until they looked at it earlier this year. His exact words were "we weren't aware of that". What?? This is 2 years ago!! This was an employee from this Dev team. They're not "aware" of a change like that? That's self-inflicted sabotage.

That alone tells us all we need to know about why ratings are such a stinkin problem in this game. I do not want to hear one more 'excuse' about old legacy issues hampering this game.

How is it that in this day and age, there is not a programmers log that is searchable and sortable that shows what type of code was worked on, what the date was, what the purpose was, what change(s) were made, what effect it had on game play. Then, say Clint wants to work on pass blocking, all he has to do is pull up every instance where code that change pass blocking was worked on. Instead it sounds like this free-for-all where anyone can just sit down and tinker with code at will and never tell anyone about it! I feel like what I heard wasn't real.

This is where some people talk about leadership and organizational problems at the Dev level. I just simply cannot argue against that thought when I hear things like this. You cannot blame marketing and Execs for failures like that. What he says is happening there is just mind numbingly dumb to me...and certainly not "funny".

[vannwolfhawk]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Talks Blocking, Mechanics, and "Broken" Zones (T4Verts)

ok, so I'm really trying to be 'nice' and 'understanding' of Madden's ratings issues. And I really do appreciate Clint. He's the only Dev I 'follow' as he drops little golden nuggets about ratings if you pay attention. And I know he's not at fault for what happens beyond his scope, but some things I'm hearing are just unbelievable.

When he's talking about the pass rusher 'boost' to catch up to a much faster player (14:46). He says it's a "funny story"...that some time ago 'someone' put in a code to give defenders in a pass rush scenario a boost to "unrealistic levels" because of what they "think" was community complaints. It went undetected until they looked at it earlier this year. His exact words were "we weren't aware of that". What?? This is 2 years ago!! This was an employee from this Dev team. They're not "aware" of a change like that? That's self-inflicted sabotage.

That alone tells us all we need to know about why ratings are such a stinkin problem in this game. I do not want to hear one more 'excuse' about old legacy issues hampering this game.

How is it that in this day and age, there is not a programmers log that is searchable and sortable that shows what type of code was worked on, what the date was, what the purpose was, what change(s) were made, what effect it had on game play. Then, say Clint wants to work on pass blocking, all he has to do is pull up every instance where code that change pass blocking was worked on. Instead it sounds like this free-for-all where anyone can just sit down and tinker with code at will and never tell anyone about it! I feel like what I heard wasn't real.

This is where some people talk about leadership and organizational problems at the Dev level. I just simply cannot argue against that thought when I hear things like this. You cannot blame marketing and Execs for failures like that. What he says is happening there is just mind numbingly dumb to me...and certainly not "funny".

That was EXACTLY what I was thinking when I heard that. How many of these type of things over the years do you think exist that they have no clue about?!

[deu22ces]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Talks Blocking, Mechanics, and "Broken" Zones (T4Verts)

That was EXACTLY what I was thinking when I heard that. How many of these type of things over the years do you think exist that they have no clue about?!

I was wondering that too. And what are the domino effects each time? Lol, I had a lot more typed but felt I should edit down. But however many there are, it's their own fault. Ratings are the most critical thing to a....ratings based game. Letting unaccounted for, random changes occur is just unbelievable to me. It's like laying a foundation out of sand and wondering why the house keeps sliding off.

[OhMrHanky]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Talks Blocking, Mechanics, and "Broken" Zones (T4Verts)

I was wondering that too. And what are the domino effects each time? Lol, I had a lot more typed but felt I should edit down. But however many there are, it's their own fault. Ratings are the most critical thing to a....ratings based game. Letting unaccounted for, random changes occur is just unbelievable to me. It's like laying a foundation out of sand and wondering why the house keeps sliding off.

Lol. Well, speaking as a java dev working on a MUCH SMALLER level than madden, admittedly, I can tell u that while we have things documented pretty well, as a dev, I can still sneak something in there. Lol. Meaning, maybe this specific instance, the dev had a user story that said, 'as a user, I want the pash rush to be better.' So, as a dev, maybe u try this, maybe u try that. Maybe, u just can't get anything better UNLESS u up their speed. U know? Maybe, that was the only solution. Or, maybe it was a quick fix they knew would work and shouldn't affect much else and wouldn't get noticed as a 'poor game fix' by other devs assuming they have some kind of peer review system.

So, ultimately, he makes the change, and show the team that the pass rush is better, and they think, 'yeah, that'll work. It's not a huge boost. It's helping the pass rush. It's fine.' Maybe, someone else thinks in the back of their mind, 'what if someone users the Dline and gets the boost and covers well?' Or something. But, ultimately, it's put on the back burner because he's got a lot of other stuff to work on. Lol. U know?

I mean, seriously, I hate to say it, but I'm guilty of that. We all have deadlines. Sometimes u do what u can and hope it doesn't affect much else. In this specific case, it affects, what, .05 % of plays in the history of madden in a neg fashion? So, it doesn't get noticed enough, but ultimately, with 4-6 million gamers, it does finally get noticed. Lol. [emoji41]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[T4VERTS]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Talks Blocking, Mechanics, and "Broken" Zones (T4Verts)

How something like that happens? Multiple development teams over many years on millions of lines of code. Different ways to note things over that time along with changing vernacular.

[deu22ces]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Talks Blocking, Mechanics, and "Broken" Zones (T4Verts)

How something like that happens? Multiple development teams over many years on millions of lines of code. Different ways to note things over that time along with changing vernacular.

This instance happened only a couple years ago with this Dev team. This is not one of those 'legacy' code issues.