No more guesswork: Unveiling new threshold calibration method

[Kevin McKoy]

Re: No more guesswork: Unveiling new threshold calibration method

I already did that, but the way you'd want to set it up is to do the average speed of average wr's and average lineman, that way you aren't getting janky measurements from extreme cases. Plus, faster receivers aren't being sped up, that was never the problem. the problem was slower players, like your 80 somethings, often would run too slow, so you'd get these huge gaps that wouldn't be there in real life. Tyreek Hill doesn't smoke cornerbacks on a regular basis on a streak route the way he can in madden at default 50, he doesn't.

Now if he puts a move on a guy and gets separation then yeah. And I've tested wide receivers as well. But again, if anyone wants to run similar or different tests, www.kinovea.org is the place to get the software and it's free,so.

[RogueHominid]

Re: No more guesswork: Unveiling new threshold calibration method

Given that these two sides seem to be in direct opposition, maybe the better move is to just go with 85. :o

Gotcha. Is that what the OP is arguing?

Again, I'm trying to find the main point of the argument being made here, if there is one, and I'm just a little unclear on what's being asserted.

[Kevin McKoy]

Re: No more guesswork: Unveiling new threshold calibration method

This was discussed quite extensively during M22, and I am strongly in the camp that the higher threshold best represents the "tight windows" you see on Sunday's.

https://forums.operationsports.com/f...threshold.html

I used the same metrics he used. 95 is incorrect. He wasn't going off what you believed about the windows, he was going off the times. Based on the times, 75 is correct, he hand timed it, the gap between timing 5.54 and 5.85 is a snap.

You can use what you want, but I just proved it to you, feel free to do what you want.

[Kevin McKoy]

Re: No more guesswork: Unveiling new threshold calibration method

If you run a 4.5 in shorts, no pads, you might lose .2 to .3, so you might run a 4.7 or 4.8 in pads, it's a margin of error in other words. You might run a 4.62, but on the latter end is what .02 to .03 is about.

How is the average WR speed in the 4.70s accurate? Pretty sure the average WR speed is in the 4.50s. According to NFL.com's combine results, the average speed (manually calculated) was 4.496. I suppose you can assume some not at the combine were slower, but there were certainly some faster who didn't go to the combine as well.


If speed differential slows WRs to TE speed, that's probably a problem.


EDIT: and that's assuming 90s for spd, acc and agi are averages. If they're higher than average, that's a problem. Of course if they are slower than average, then this is probably good.


And what does this "but the estimates I've found online range from a ~4.45 probably being closer to 4.65ish in game." mean?

[Kramer5150]

Re: No more guesswork: Unveiling new threshold calibration method

I used the same metrics he used. 95 is incorrect. He wasn't going off what you believed about the windows, he was going off the times. Based on the times, 75 is correct, he hand timed it, the gap between timing 5.54 and 5.85 is a snap.

You can use what you want, but I just proved it to you, feel free to do what you want.

So, 75 is correct based on what you believe it to be?? LMAO ....ok

This is from Adembroski....I would tend to believe somebody that oh I don't know...was actually there?

I don't buy every year, but I ran the same years when I have and 95 has generally been right every year I have. Also, I was there when they put it in... 95 was known in house as the most realistic.

[Kramer5150]

Re: No more guesswork: Unveiling new threshold calibration method

I hate to be all "scientific" here, but a linebacker catching Tyreek Hill doesn't inherently have anything to do with the top speed. The slider could lower the top speed and the lb still won't necessarily get him, because all other speeds could be lowered as well.

I would be interested to know if it's a linear transformation of all speeds from one set to another, or is it just a changing of the lower extreme.


What I mean is, does it do this:

{1, 2, 3, 4, 5} → {3, 4, 4, 4, 5} (bad)

or does it do this:

{1, 2, 3, 4, 5} → {3, 3.5, 4, 4.5, 5} (good).
.

But note for the sake of argument, it could also do this:

{1, 2, 3, 4, 5} → {3, 3.4, 3.8, 4.2, 4.6}

or this

{1, 2, 3, 4, 5} → {3, 3.6, 4.2, 4.8, 5.4}


.
.
.
.

Also, since we're here, Tyreek Hill's top speed last year was the equivalent of a 3.52 40 yard dash, with pads.* Acceleration is the thing here. He could never get that fast in the first 40 yards. Watching the play it looked like he got there by the time he was somewhere between 50 and 60 yards nearly straight running. We need an acceleration differential. Or does the speed differential affect that too?


*40 yards/[23.24 mph × (1 hour/3600 seconds) × (1760 yards/mile)]

Okay seriously....is it your sole purpose to troll me in these threads?

The example I gave was NOT what I witnessed, but what was said during the beta last year...DAMN!!

Just to clarify...HERE is what I said.

I read during last years beta that folks were worried that dudes like Tyreek were going to be "caught from behind" by a lb using a higher threshold....this is simply not true.

Notice I said thats what I READ!! I myself didn't say that...

[King Gro23]

Re: No more guesswork: Unveiling new threshold calibration method

This is why I still prefer the data from FBG ratings for madden.



Realistically very few players will have 90 agility or speed.



And most of the OL isn't going to have 65 speed or higher.



That's just EA taking the initiative to inflate the speed ratings In recent years particularly on the OL



Most of them arent clocking 5.0 or better which means they should be in the 50-60 speed range as opposed to 65 and higher



Having said all that this is still madden and trying to figure out EA's football game especially over the last decade is just pointless because I don't think they even know at times what happens under the hood of their game.



EA themselves has never showed a testing of their own game thresholds at least not to my knowledge.

Is FBG still running I checked the links I had a few years ago and they were not active. I used to always edit rosters and use FBG from like 12’-18


Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

[Hooe]

Re: No more guesswork: Unveiling new threshold calibration method

That former dev guy Adam something mentioned that a higher speed differential was more accurate.

Is this something we all still believe to be true on PS5 / XSX?

I ask not to discredit anyone, but I’m trying to reconcile this assertion with the fact that player locomotion in Madden changed radically following the console generation jump, the new system is tuned using NFL Next Gen Stats telemetry data captured from real life NFL players in real life NFL games, and Adembroski hasn’t been with Tiburon to work on the most recent games to attest to that tuning.

[Kramer5150]

Re: No more guesswork: Unveiling new threshold calibration method

Is this something we all still believe to be true on PS5 / XSX?

I ask not to discredit anyone, but I’m trying to reconcile this assertion with the fact that player locomotion in Madden changed radically following the console generation jump, the new system is tuned using NFL Next Gen Stats telemetry data captured from real life NFL players in real life NFL games, and Adembroski hasn’t been with Tiburon to work on the most recent games to attest to that tuning.

While that may be the case, I'm not sure I buy in to the notion that this part of the game was rebuilt.

There are still a lot of similarities between last gen and this one, and I'd be willing to bet that this is one of the areas that haven't been touched.

Now obviously I don't work for EA/Tiburon so I can't say for sure, but based on what I've witnessed from last gen to this gen is the parity slider is still the same.

[simbayless]

Re: No more guesswork: Unveiling new threshold calibration method

They should make it wear ea knocks down at least 10 points of the LB speed whenever the ball is in the air

[Kevin McKoy]

Re: No more guesswork: Unveiling new threshold calibration method

So, 75 is correct based on what you believe it to be?? LMAO ....ok

This is from Adembroski....I would tend to believe somebody that oh I don't know...was actually there?

Not because I say so, the numbers do. We have the average 40 times for lineman and wide receivers. So you have the fastest and slowest positions as the metrics.

At 75, 65 speed lineman, the average in madden, runs it in the 5.50s, so around. 2 knocked off. Totally believable when you factor in their weight plus pads. 90 speed was, so your 4.5 guys like Ceedee lamb, are in the 4.60's, again within a believable margin of error, smaller pads, smaller guys etc.

What isn't believable is the average 5.3 lineman running a 5.14 40, when they couldn't do it without pads, and were presumably lighter at the combine than when they hit the field in Sept.

5.14 is what they ran at 95 threshold, I put it on video, with a timing tracker that followed them the entire 40 yards. There was a delay between the timer and him running, so put it in slow mo, deduct the added seconds prior to them actually running and that's what I got.

So I don't care what Adam or anyone else said, if their data doesn't match the real world, they're wrong. Full stop. And besides, he hasn't worked there in years, the game moved faster then. So rather than you "believing" nothing has changed, test it. Or don't come for me.

[Hooe]

Re: No more guesswork: Unveiling new threshold calibration method

While that may be the case, I'm not sure I buy in to the notion that this part of the game was rebuilt.

There are still a lot of similarities between last gen and this one, and I'd be willing to bet that this is one of the areas that haven't been touched.

I mean. It is plainly obvious to me that the PS5 / XSX games do not move the same as the PS4 / XB1 games. They just don’t.

Among other things, the delayed and more realistic timing of receivers getting off the line of scrimmage into their routes, the movement of the offensive line across everything they do, and the increased inertia of players (especially with linebackers) are all immediately apparent. The PS4 / XB1 games feel incredibly twitchy and arcadey in comparison.

[Madden08PCgmr]

Re: No more guesswork: Unveiling new threshold calibration method

I suppose it is moot, but I seem to recall we did have a speed chart that accurately represented top end speed around the time the Manifesto came out.

And then, as now, the discrepancy with game speed seemed to be with the players outside the 4.6 range.

[Kramer5150]

Re: No more guesswork: Unveiling new threshold calibration method

So I don't care what Adam or anyone else said, if their data doesn't match the real world, they're wrong. Full stop. And besides, he hasn't worked there in years, the game moved faster then. So rather than you "believing" nothing has changed, test it. Or don't come for me.

LMAO..."don't come at me"? yea like I really "came" at you, give me a break...

, you started this thread for discussion right? when you or your "methods" are questioned you get defensive and claim that your right and everybody else is wrong...okay then

[Kramer5150]

Re: No more guesswork: Unveiling new threshold calibration method

I mean. It is plainly obvious to me that the PS5 / XSX games do not move the same as the PS4 / XB1 games. They just don’t.

Among other things, the delayed and more realistic timing of receivers getting off the line of scrimmage into their routes, the movement of the offensive line across everything they do, and the increased inertia of players (especially with linebackers) are all immediately apparent. The PS4 / XB1 games feel incredibly twitchy and arcadey in comparison.

I understand that, but what I'm getting at is there is a LOT of carry over from the last generation to this gen.