No more guesswork: Unveiling new threshold calibration method

[Kevin McKoy]

Re: No more guesswork: Unveiling new threshold calibration method

Kevin, just to be extra clear: your argument is for 75, correct?

I'm just following the evidence I have and trying to be as transparent as I can. It's why I keep attaching videos.

It's quite evident that guys above 93 are too fast, based on testing. To me, once you've got slower players in their ballpark speed range, it's easier to bring higher speed guys down, then to make slower players faster than they should be to keep up with the unrealistically fastest players.

But given the initial evidence and the software I used, perhaps someone reigns it in with a test they did that improves upon or blows away what I I've shown.

But so far the two extremes I've seen are lineman who have run 5.3 40's running 5.14 at 95 threshold on one extreme, and guys who've never run 40 yards in 4.20 seconds doing so on any threshold.

[canes21]

Re: No more guesswork: Unveiling new threshold calibration method

I'm just following the evidence I have and trying to be as transparent as I can. It's why I keep attaching videos.

It's quite evident that guys above 93 are too fast, based on testing. To me, once you've got slower players in their ballpark speed range, it's easier to bring higher speed guys down, then to make slower players faster than they should be to keep up with the unrealistically fastest players.

But given the initial evidence and the software I used, perhaps someone reigns it in with a test they did that improves upon or blows away what I I've shown.

But so far the two extremes I've seen are lineman who have run 5.3 40's running 5.14 at 95 threshold on one extreme, and guys who've never run 40 yards in 4.20 seconds doing so on any threshold.

Isn't that what 95 does? The fast guys are too fast by default, so we have to use a threshold that brings the slower guys to an unrealistic level that creates a realistic amount of separation.

If 75 makes your slower players realistic speeds, but the faster players are unrealistically fast on all thresholds, then the parity would not be realistic.

[ForUntoOblivionSoar∞]

Re: No more guesswork: Unveiling new threshold calibration method

No, not quite what I was saying. Part of the problem is we have been under the assumption that only the lower spd players were incorrect, the assumption was incorrect, as you're about to see.

Mecole Hardman spd 99 https://youtu.be/Z3USBnqPcxk

Mecole Hardman spd 95 https://youtu.be/Z3USBnqPcxkDb7SUhaoOgc

Mecole Hardman spd 93 https://youtu.be/QVPWqco-97M

Now you may decide to still do what you're going to do, but you just saw it with your own eyes. People are essentially using 95 to compensate for this imo. Neither Mecole Hardman or Tyreek Hill have ever run a 40 in 4.20, ever.

Tyreek Hill recently ran a 60m dash in 6.70, which is just a hair under 20 mph, with no pads on, in a runners stance.

People have long said "there is no way an 88 spd corner should get smoked by a 99 spd receiver like that" and they were right. What they didn't know was why they were right. And as of my testing, it's been like that for a while, I got the same 99 spd results going all the way back to 19.

Again if anyone wants to do other testing, the software is at www.kinovea.org and it's completely free. If you need help using it, lemme know, but yeah, people need to know.

Yeah but Hill was supposedly clocked at 23.4 mph by NGS once. Granted, that was peak speed. Also 60 m/(6.7s) * 1 mile/(1609.344m) = 20.03 mph, so a hair over, not under.

Edit: lol that's what I call splitting hairs.

[ForUntoOblivionSoar∞]

Re: No more guesswork: Unveiling new threshold calibration method

Isn't that what 95 does? The fast guys are too fast by default, so we have to use a threshold that brings the slower guys to an unrealistic level that creates a realistic amount of separation.

If 75 makes your slower players realistic speeds, but the faster players are unrealistically fast on all thresholds, then the parity would not be realistic.

Would be nice to have universal attribute editing.

[Kevin McKoy]

Re: No more guesswork: Unveiling new threshold calibration method

Isn't that what 95 does? The fast guys are too fast by default, so we have to use a threshold that brings the slower guys to an unrealistic level that creates a realistic amount of separation.

If 75 makes your slower players realistic speeds, but the faster players are unrealistically fast on all thresholds, then the parity would not be realistic.

In more testing, this time at default 50, i've come to the same conclusion.

The following is 40 times for Ja'mmar Chase and Hilton. default

Chase https://youtu.be/97zD6eX4xWY

Hilton https://youtu.be/A60ujtaACng Hilton speed is an 88

Chase, depending on how you want to grade it, ran a 4.37 or a 4.40. 4.37 if you count his kneecap going across the goaline, Which I think laser timing would, or 4.40 if you want to see the majority of his body go over the line.

Hilton ran a 4.54. And if you some out, and see them as they're both crossing, there ain't a lot of separation.

In real life chase ran a 4.38 40 and Hilton ran a 4.55. So they're definitely not too slow.

I submit to you all that the top end guys are too fast, and rather than cause other imbalances in the game by messing with threshold, simply lower their speed to what we know they have run before.

I've even tested the likes of T.J. Watt, 83 speed, he ran a 4.69 in real life and a 4.81 in madden. Not a huge gap at all.

I think one of the things that makes it too easy to pass is the fact that most people play with a qb accuracy that is too high. I shouldn't be able to consistently place accurate passes with Baker Mayfield, tight windows or whatever. I've seen him miss plenty of passes where the guy was wide open.

Same thing with your Zack Wilsons. For example, on all pro, I think if you're playing with anything above 7qb accuracy, it's too high. I can make qb's look like Peyton Manning with anything higher. That and below? Now Justin Fields looks like Justin Fields, Mayfield, Zach Wilson, David Mills, they look like themselves. They don't look like themselves at 20, 25, 40, 45 and all the other variants I see. Even on all madden, 15, 20, 25, is too high.

So if any of this helps 1 person it would have not been for naught, if it doesn't, at the least it's some fat to chew on. On to 24! Tomorrow hopefully.

[adembroski]

Re: No more guesswork: Unveiling new threshold calibration method

Nice to see people remember me :P

I believe firmly - no, I know - 95 is the most accurate... ON LAST GEN. I will not swear anything to the current version of the game. New locomotion, new physics, I am no authority on this version of the game.

[canes21]

Re: No more guesswork: Unveiling new threshold calibration method

In more testing, this time at default 50, i've come to the same conclusion.

The following is 40 times for Ja'mmar Chase and Hilton. default

Chase https://youtu.be/97zD6eX4xWY

Hilton https://youtu.be/A60ujtaACng Hilton speed is an 88

Chase, depending on how you want to grade it, ran a 4.37 or a 4.40. 4.37 if you count his kneecap going across the goaline, Which I think laser timing would, or 4.40 if you want to see the majority of his body go over the line.

Hilton ran a 4.54. And if you some out, and see them as they're both crossing, there ain't a lot of separation.

In real life chase ran a 4.38 40 and Hilton ran a 4.55. So they're definitely not too slow.

I submit to you all that the top end guys are too fast, and rather than cause other imbalances in the game by messing with threshold, simply lower their speed to what we know they have run before.

I've even tested the likes of T.J. Watt, 83 speed, he ran a 4.69 in real life and a 4.81 in madden. Not a huge gap at all.

I think one of the things that makes it too easy to pass is the fact that most people play with a qb accuracy that is too high. I shouldn't be able to consistently place accurate passes with Baker Mayfield, tight windows or whatever. I've seen him miss plenty of passes where the guy was wide open.

Same thing with your Zack Wilsons. For example, on all pro, I think if you're playing with anything above 7qb accuracy, it's too high. I can make qb's look like Peyton Manning with anything higher. That and below? Now Justin Fields looks like Justin Fields, Mayfield, Zach Wilson, David Mills, they look like themselves. They don't look like themselves at 20, 25, 40, 45 and all the other variants I see. Even on all madden, 15, 20, 25, is too high.

So if any of this helps 1 person it would have not been for naught, if it doesn't, at the least it's some fat to chew on. On to 24! Tomorrow hopefully.

How much faster are the fast guys that makes them too fast? I feel like you posted it already, but I probably overlooked it. I'm just curious because you said TJ Watt having a .12 difference in Madden at default 50 is no big deal, so how much faster were the fast guys running that does make it a big deal with them?

Also, this is more of a personal opinion, but you say it's easier to make the fast guys slower than it is to mess with the threshold to make the separation more accurate at the risk of imbalancing other areas of the game, but that is where I will definitely disagree. I can either go in and edit a ton of players' speed ratings, or I can simply move the threshold up and have a more realistic amount of separation which, in my own opinion, actually balances the game out better as it makes all timing windows smaller like a real NFL game.

[Kevin McKoy]

Re: No more guesswork: Unveiling new threshold calibration method

How much faster are the fast guys that makes them too fast? I feel like you posted it already, but I probably overlooked it. I'm just curious because you said TJ Watt having a .12 difference in Madden at default 50 is no big deal, so how much faster were the fast guys running that does make it a big deal with them?

Also, this is more of a personal opinion, but you say it's easier to make the fast guys slower than it is to mess with the threshold to make the separation more accurate at the risk of imbalancing other areas of the game, but that is where I will definitely disagree. I can either go in and edit a ton of players' speed ratings, or I can simply move the threshold up and have a more realistic amount of separation which, in my own opinion, actually balances the game out better as it makes all timing windows smaller like a real NFL game.

As per my style, I don't just bring receipts, I bring invoices. I don't tell ya what ya paid, I tell what you owe.

This is Tyreek Hill running 60 meters (65 yards) on a track field, no pads of course, track shoes, etc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4BKPYiEgGk&t=1s

And although I couldn't get him to run 65 yards in madden, it's close enough to bring home the point.

https://youtu.be/svholSy_I8o

At 50 yards, and if you don't have a video player or software that allows you to break things down frame by frame, you might want to get one. Or you can use www.kinovea.org the site I use to slap the stopwatch on the players as they run, it's free.

But at 50 yards, he is there in 4.70, in real life he got there in 6 seconds. That's a difference of 1.30 seconds, that ain't a small gap. That's your 88 spd cornerback getting unrealistically torched. Considering there are only a handful of players as fast as him, to me it doesn't take much time to bump him down to say 95 spd, which is where he should be, at 94 Chase was in the 4.3's and ran a 40 in 4.38 in real life. Hill, a 4.29

But I understand for some that is a waste of time and that is fine, everyone isn't as anal about this stuff as I am. but for those that are, jacking up the threshold to 95 will make the game too fast, again that's for the super anal people like me, people that aren't and 95 works for them, this portion isn't of the message isn't for them. But if you are, you're making the other guys who are at the right speed too fast to compensate for a handful of players around the league that are that fast.

That's all I got fellas, if the coverage improvements are what everyone is reporting them to be from the beta and they stick, this method should be strengthened.