3-4....NOBODY gets sacks, NEEDS FIXED!!!!

[fourthreemafia]

Re: EA needs to fix the 3-4 Defense!!!

In other news...water is wet.

I agree though.

It does seem like its on the right track. I dont see player getting double and even triple teamed. Unfortunately, there isnt much logic behind the blocking. They arent double team players based on how strong and good they are. As someone mentioned before, you dont really get the feeling that an elite NT is dominant.

The need to make scheme specific ratings.

[imskykid]

Re: EA needs to fix the 3-4 Defense!!!

In other news...water is wet.

I agree though.

It does seem like its on the right track. I dont see player getting double and even triple teamed. Unfortunately, there isnt much logic behind the blocking. They arent double team players based on how strong and good they are. As someone mentioned before, you dont really get the feeling that an elite NT is dominant.

The need to make scheme specific ratings.

Exactly! That's just what I talked about in the other thread I made... I'll post it here and delete the other one.

Separate Depth Charts for 4-3 and 3-4 teams. (This is just an example)

CB---------- 5T--- NT--- 5T---------------- CB
-------DE/OLB- MLB - MLB- DE/OLB--------

----------------S ---------- S-----------------------

5T (5-technique for lack of a better term), NT, and DE/OLB would all have their own specific rating qualifications. You want Glenn Dorsey to be your NT? Well his rating is going to take a hit because while he might play well as a DT in a 4-3, there are different attributes that make a 3-4 NT more effective.

The 5T for laziness sake (because EA wont want to spend the time anyway) their rating qualification could be the same as or close to DT ratings... but a different position would be nice because they have different responsibilites/attributes required to play the position.

Finally, what makes the 3-4 nightmares for QBs, the DE/OLB. Having a totally seperate rating for this position would eliminate the ability to plug any OLB in and be sucessful. Derrick Brooks is a HOFer but would not survive as an OLB in a 3-4. They need to have ratings similar to (but not exact) of DE. This way when you switch a low-70s Vernon Gholston to DE he doesnt go up to 90. But there should be a slight drop off when you switch a DE to DE/OLB because of coverage responsibilites.

Another thing this would improve is the Draft in Franchise Mode. The CPU Cowboys would not draft a DE who is 6'3" 255lbs and expect him to play the 5-Technique in their 3-4. Instead, players who have the DE/OLB position would default to whatever position best suits them for the scheme they are drafted into. Same would work with Free Agency when say Shawne Merriman isn't resigned. Instead of going to the Saints to play OLB, he would be switched to play DE because that is what their scheme dictates (much like how OLB Greg Ellis for the Cowboys is now DE Greg Ellis for the Raiders).

Simmed stats in Franchise are scewed because the same sim logic is applied to both 3-4 and 4-3 teams where DE's and DT's get the most sacks, when we all know that is FALSE! Creating all new positions and depth charts would allow for stats to be realistic and a good step in the right direction for gameplay.

[fourthreemafia]

Re: EA needs to fix the 3-4 Defense!!!

Awesome write up!

But I think there needs to be scheme specific ratings for each player. I will go into alot of detail when I do my Madden 11 wishlist but for now, Ill try to keep it brief.

Height, weight and specific attributes should factor into who fits where.

Lance Briggs couldnt play OLB in the 3-4. If he goes from a 4-3 cover 2 D to a 3-4 zone blitz D, his rating should plummet. It would add more strategy when drafting and in FA, and thus, be alot more fun.

For instance.

Outside Linebackers

3-4 : They need to be able to do everything. Rush the QB, play the run and drop into coverage.

4-3: In most 43 D, OLBs arent asked to rush the QB. They are primarily run support and coverage.

There needs to be ratings that seperate OLBs in both schemes. Block shedding, pass rushing ability and strength are three skills that are very important to 3-4 OLBs that arent AS important to 4-3 OLBs. Coverage ability and pursuit are two skills that are more important to 4-3 OLBs than 3-4 OLBs.

So, a guy like Lance Briggs shouldnt have great pass rush ability or block shedding, but should have a good rating in coverage and pursuit. In the 4-3, he would be rated a 92 or something, but in the 3-4, he would be in the mid 70's at best.

You have to apply the same type of logic to each position, but you have to make them somewhat interchangable. A 4-3 DE shouldnt be able to play 5 tech DE in the 3-4, but a 4-3 DE with good pass rushing ability and good in run support should have a decent rating as a 3-4 OLB.

[Patscanes]

Re: EA needs to fix the 3-4 Defense!!!

Awesome write up!

But I think there needs to be scheme specific ratings for each player. I will go into alot of detail when I do my Madden 11 wishlist but for now, Ill try to keep it brief.

Height, weight and specific attributes should factor into who fits where.

Lance Briggs couldnt play OLB in the 3-4. If he goes from a 4-3 cover 2 D to a 3-4 zone blitz D, his rating should plummet. It would add more strategy when drafting and in FA, and thus, be alot more fun.

For instance.

Outside Linebackers

3-4 : They need to be able to do everything. Rush the QB, play the run and drop into coverage.

4-3: In most 43 D, OLBs arent asked to rush the QB. They are primarily run support and coverage.

There needs to be ratings that seperate OLBs in both schemes. Block shedding, pass rushing ability and strength are three skills that are very important to 3-4 OLBs that arent AS important to 4-3 OLBs. Coverage ability and pursuit are two skills that are more important to 4-3 OLBs than 3-4 OLBs.

So, a guy like Lance Briggs shouldnt have great pass rush ability or block shedding, but should have a good rating in coverage and pursuit. In the 4-3, he would be rated a 92 or something, but in the 3-4, he would be in the mid 70's at best.

You have to apply the same type of logic to each position, but you have to make them somewhat interchangable. A 4-3 DE shouldnt be able to play 5 tech DE in the 3-4, but a 4-3 DE with good pass rushing ability and good in run support should have a decent rating as a 3-4 OLB.

Exactly it would bring a whole new "real" to madden

[Bulldogs78]

Re: EA needs to fix the 3-4 Defense!!!

no kidding. 3-4 is easy to exploit, especially for the CPU!

For the first time in Madden history, i'm using a 4-3 defense. I hate this.

[imskykid]

Re: EA needs to fix the 3-4 Defense!!!

Awesome write up!

But I think there needs to be scheme specific ratings for each player. I will go into alot of detail when I do my Madden 11 wishlist but for now, Ill try to keep it brief.

Height, weight and specific attributes should factor into who fits where.

Lance Briggs couldnt play OLB in the 3-4. If he goes from a 4-3 cover 2 D to a 3-4 zone blitz D, his rating should plummet. It would add more strategy when drafting and in FA, and thus, be alot more fun.

For instance.

Outside Linebackers

3-4 : They need to be able to do everything. Rush the QB, play the run and drop into coverage.

4-3: In most 43 D, OLBs arent asked to rush the QB. They are primarily run support and coverage.

There needs to be ratings that seperate OLBs in both schemes. Block shedding, pass rushing ability and strength are three skills that are very important to 3-4 OLBs that arent AS important to 4-3 OLBs. Coverage ability and pursuit are two skills that are more important to 4-3 OLBs than 3-4 OLBs.

So, a guy like Lance Briggs shouldnt have great pass rush ability or block shedding, but should have a good rating in coverage and pursuit. In the 4-3, he would be rated a 92 or something, but in the 3-4, he would be in the mid 70's at best.

You have to apply the same type of logic to each position, but you have to make them somewhat interchangable. A 4-3 DE shouldnt be able to play 5 tech DE in the 3-4, but a 4-3 DE with good pass rushing ability and good in run support should have a decent rating as a 3-4 OLB.

This is why I think a "HYBRID" position or DE/OLB and separate depth charts would work. All the current players and CPU generated rookies that fall in to the "HYBRID" position would receive that distinction.

Players like Mario Williams, Julius Peppers, Patrick Kerney would stay as DE.

D Ware, Dwight Freeny, Shawne Merriman, Aaron Maybin would become DE/OLB or "HYBRIDS" and would switch to their most appropriate position depending on which team picks them up in free agency.

Vince Wilfork, Casey Hampton, BJ Raji would be NT whose rating would be different than DT. Like in the post above, if you move Glenn Dorsey from DT to NT, his ratings will drop because being an elite NT is different than DT.

5T could have similar attributes to DT... Chris Canty, Richard Seymore, Luis Castillo, and Tyson Jackson could be picked up and play in the correct position whether 3-4 or 4-3.

If a 3-4 team picked up a 4-3 OLB via free agency, their rating would take a hit because the HYBRID position has different qualifications associated to it.

Almost half the teams in the NFL run some variation of the 3-4 and it's about time that is reflected throughout the game.

[imskykid]

Re: EA needs to fix the 3-4 Defense!!!

Here's a snippet from the thread we have going on over at EA Forums

http://forum.ea.com/eaforum/posts/list/282922.page

Issues these Specific Positions could solve:

1.) CPU Draft/Free Agency Logic- Teams wont draft or sign out of scheme. The players would default to their appropriate position!

2.) Simmed Stats- Sim logic for these positions would generate their own custom/unique stats! No more 3-4 DE/DTs leading the team in sacks!

3.) Gameplay- O-Line AI would have different blocking logic for these specific positions so no more blocking a 3-4 like a 4-3!

[MMMonty]

Re: EA needs to fix the 3-4 Defense!!!

This is an excellent topic that applies real football logic. Great conversation going thus far. The only thing that makes me sad is that it won't be fixed this year with a patch. If there was enough logic by the CPU to understand the difference, that would be the most remarkable upgrade in any football game.

[monkeybutlerz]

Re: EA needs to fix the 3-4 Defense!!!

Awesome write up!

But I think there needs to be scheme specific ratings for each player. I will go into alot of detail when I do my Madden 11 wishlist but for now, Ill try to keep it brief.

Height, weight and specific attributes should factor into who fits where.

Lance Briggs couldnt play OLB in the 3-4. If he goes from a 4-3 cover 2 D to a 3-4 zone blitz D, his rating should plummet. It would add more strategy when drafting and in FA, and thus, be alot more fun.

For instance.

Outside Linebackers

3-4 : They need to be able to do everything. Rush the QB, play the run and drop into coverage.

4-3: In most 43 D, OLBs arent asked to rush the QB. They are primarily run support and coverage.

There needs to be ratings that seperate OLBs in both schemes. Block shedding, pass rushing ability and strength are three skills that are very important to 3-4 OLBs that arent AS important to 4-3 OLBs. Coverage ability and pursuit are two skills that are more important to 4-3 OLBs than 3-4 OLBs.

So, a guy like Lance Briggs shouldnt have great pass rush ability or block shedding, but should have a good rating in coverage and pursuit. In the 4-3, he would be rated a 92 or something, but in the 3-4, he would be in the mid 70's at best.

You have to apply the same type of logic to each position, but you have to make them somewhat interchangable. A 4-3 DE shouldnt be able to play 5 tech DE in the 3-4, but a 4-3 DE with good pass rushing ability and good in run support should have a decent rating as a 3-4 OLB.

This is why I think a "HYBRID" position or DE/OLB and separate depth charts would work. All the current players and CPU generated rookies that fall in to the "HYBRID" position would receive that distinction.

Players like Mario Williams, Julius Peppers, Patrick Kerney would stay as DE.

D Ware, Dwight Freeny, Shawne Merriman, Aaron Maybin would become DE/OLB or "HYBRIDS" and would switch to their most appropriate position depending on which team picks them up in free agency.

Vince Wilfork, Casey Hampton, BJ Raji would be NT whose rating would be different than DT. Like in the post above, if you move Glenn Dorsey from DT to NT, his ratings will drop because being an elite NT is different than DT.

5T could have similar attributes to DT... Chris Canty, Richard Seymore, Luis Castillo, and Tyson Jackson could be picked up and play in the correct position whether 3-4 or 4-3.

If a 3-4 team picked up a 4-3 OLB via free agency, their rating would take a hit because the HYBRID position has different qualifications associated to it.

Almost half the teams in the NFL run some variation of the 3-4 and it's about time that is reflected throughout the game.

Here's a snippet from the thread we have going on over at EA Forums

http://forum.ea.com/eaforum/posts/list/282922.page

Issues these Specific Positions could solve:

1.) CPU Draft/Free Agency Logic- Teams wont draft or sign out of scheme. The players would default to their appropriate position!

2.) Simmed Stats- Sim logic for these positions would generate their own custom/unique stats! No more 3-4 DE/DTs leading the team in sacks!

3.) Gameplay- O-Line AI would have different blocking logic for these specific positions so no more blocking a 3-4 like a 4-3!

I strongly agree with this post and a couple others (same poster's previous post and fourthreemafia - but for quote length, I won't include them).

And to piggy back the effect this could have on offseason moves is huge. If secondary positions could really be properly programmed in, from a draft and free agency perspective, there could almost be a risk/reward system if you want to take a player from say a 4-3 scheme and try and incorporate him into your 3-4 scheme.

For example, if your scouts are examining some college DE, it would be cool if the scouting reports said something along the lines that this player shows potential to play stand-up 3-4 OLB. Or they examine another DE and the report would say that he doesn't have the hips to properly play the 3-4 OLB scheme. It would make scouting tweener type players important and it would be cool to try and convert players after college and trying to envision the position they would be most successful in.

And secondary positions doesn't have to limit itself to 4-3 DEs vs. 3-4 OLBs. It could be LB/S tweeners, CB/S tweeners and so on. That way you could draft say an Antrel Rolle (sp?) or a Malcom Jenkins and decide whether they should play CB or S, whereas it would be more difficult to plug in a pure CB into the S role.

IMO it could add more depth to scouting gems out of position, as well as impacting which teams would draft which players depending on their schemes. I know MLB the Show lets you really customize players positions as well as their secondary positions and I think Madden could improve in this area.

[steelers1]

Re: EA needs to fix the 3-4 Defense!!!

This whole thread echoes what I've been wanting forever. I agree with the OP completely and several other of the posters. I've only played like 4 or 5 games, and 4 of them with the Steelers 3-4. I noticed that Aaron Smith was the main guy getting pressure for me and that my D-line was getting the tackles. The game treats the 3-4 exactly like a 4-3 and it's ridiculous.

The last game I played (Steelers at Broncos) this issue was very evident. I hadn't seen this thread yet, and jotted down the stats, then came on here to try and find a thread about this.

My leading tackler was Casey Hampton with 9 solo tackles, 2 ast, 3 tfl, and a sack. Aaron Smith had 4 tackles and a sack. Kiesel had 3 tackles.

Meanwhile my 4 starting LBs had only 6 solo tackles, 15 assists, and 3 tfl collectively and the OLBs never really seemed to help get pressure on my numerous blitzes. Harrison almost seemed useless when trying to blitz with him.

I love the 3-4 and hate how this wasn't a priority.

I have strongly advocated separate depth charts for the 4-3 and 3-4, and also the different positions for DT, NT, and the DEs/LBs of the schemes for quite some time. I also like the idea of tweener positions and stuff (also for the DBs and stuff that was discussed). And having the blocking schemes work correctly for the different defenses and players is also paramount. Those things would improve this game infinitely for me.

These problems make teams like the Steelers lose their identity. By the games I've played, you'd think Aaron Smith and Casey Hampton were Osi and Tuck instead of the dominating 3-4 linemen they truly are.

[Exonerated]

Re: EA needs to fix the 3-4 Defense!!!

They sure do.

[Bmore_Ravens]

Re: EA needs to fix the 3-4 Defense!!!

This thread made me create an account for OS. because I agree 100% with what you guys are saying

[Luca Brasi]

Re: EA needs to fix the 3-4 Defense!!!

I don't like bumping threads but i will for this one in hopes that someone out there that uses the 3-4 can provide honest tips on how they get sacks.

[jonesha2000]

Re: EA needs to fix the 3-4 Defense!!!

I played a guy yesterday that completely destroyed me with a 3-4 scheme. So since this is a copy cat league I tried it with the Panthers and had pretty good success with it. I would loop Peppers thru a gap in the line sometimes and sometimes I would speed rush from the outside if the linebacker was taking the gap. I come out with about 3 or 4 sacks per game but you know sacks aren't everything...getting pressure and causing bad throws lead to turnovers. I'm going to practice a few more 3-4 schemes today. The difference is I'm playing online against human opponents so I'm sure it makes a difference when playing against the cpu. I think the key to using a 3-4 scheme is finding the gap in the line when using a dlineman or sometimes using your dlineman to occupy the olineman to free up your blitzing LB from the outside.

[imskykid]

Re: EA needs to fix the 3-4 Defense!!!

Keep in mind that while these changes would most definately help the user, the major impact this will have is on CPU controlled teams in the offseason/draft. We can pretty much do all these things right now by switching player's positions and drafting for scheme, but there's nothing in place that tells the CPU to do that.

Also, if you read this and feel strongly about it as a lot of you do, PLEASE reply to this post. The only way we will get EA's attention is if this generates some buzz. If they see a thread that doesn't have many posts then they wont be as inclined to see it. If they know the majority of us are passionate about it, they will have to listen.

They've been doing a good job at being active in the community and this years game is a huge improvement from last years... but that just shows us how much they are capable of accomplishing in a year and that they are serious about making this the best football game it can be.

Tell your friends!