Why Line Play Will Never Be Realistic in Football Games

[catcatch22]

Re: Why Line Play Will Never Be Realistic in Football Games

The "fast" game speed was pretty good in APF 2K8 for improving the pass rush, but the problem it created was that WRs ran their routes ridiculously fast.

A gold WR in APF 2K8 already can run a 20-yard post route in 1 - 2 seconds on "normal" speed, which is part of the reason why the 4-man pass rush in the game in so ineffective.

The (slow) pass rush speed in APF 2K8 just isn't synched very well to the (fast) WRs' route running speed.

Which is why there are bump masters to derail those quick routes, unfortunately just like the inconsistency of the pass rush the "bump" is so random.

I can see what 2k was trying to do to balance the game but yeah they should have given the defense a bit more tools. The defense is constantly trying to keep up with the offense and the offense does not have to do "as much" to keep up with the defense at times.

[wonderl33t]

The author apparently hasn't played NCAA on heisman difficulty. You get about 2 seconds of protection on average.

[BezO]

Re: Why Line Play Will Never Be Realistic in Football Games

I can see EA thinking this way. Much, if not all of the programming is based on this idea. Pass rushing would be no different.

But like others have said, that's what difficulty settings are for.

And I think EA forgets that gamers play defense too, or at least would like to. Being glued to offensive linemen, playing patty cake, is equally frustrating. I just think gamers have become accustomed to it. Everyone just picks the pre-packaged defenses, hopes & waits for their turn on offense.

[silence1206]

Re: Why Line Play Will Never Be Realistic in Football Games

I think this article remotely touches some of points made in the OP, and why I'm currently a bit of a disgruntled gamer: http://www.tweaktown.com/articles/39...k_gaming_tech/

Point being, I want my gaming experience to be challenging--And when it comes to football gaming, realistic in every possible aspect. I want to know that I'm playing a game that will stomp my face in if I play like a mindless jack ***. That said, I also understand the gamers who just want to jump in and play some relaxing arcade style football. The only sad thing is that sim-heads have no up-to-date NFL games to get their football fix with. At the very least, it would be comforting to have more options.

One thing that all football games have utterly failed to do is coach up the user in an intuitive way. Madden has the offensive coordinator voice-over and some voice-overs from madden saying "do this" or "do that". But, really, these are very generic instructions that don't get into divulging the subtle details of the game which is really the game's heart and soul. It's not just about the stats sheet at the end looking realistic. It should be about the user knowing enough about defensive alignments and coverages to be able to be successful against the opponent (from either side of the ball). For more casual gamers, if they could be coached up to understand these subtleties, they may find that a deeper more realistic game would not be a frustrating deterrent, but an enjoyable exercise in learning the details that go into making an amazing sport enjoyable to watch/play. (for instance, better knowing the situation they are in in the game, and knowing how to call the right play for the situation--the smarter decision sometimes being the one geared to gaining field position before punting, instead of expecting to get a first down)

In games like 2k5/2k8 or BB, I've seen defenses that absolutely take over a game and constantly forcing me to make descisions I don't want to make. (That doesn't mean I have to roll over and lose the game. It just means I needed to make decisions based on knowing my opponent and finding a way to win in tough, high pressure situations.) Oh, that LB just shot through my line and disrupted my run off tackle. Or, there's a CB coming on a blitz that I don't have enough men to block, so I'm going to have to get the ball out real fast, and possibly have to just take an incompletion instead of gunning the ball into tight coverage. Or, maybe it's just dynamic line play that wound up pressuring me to step up in the pocket, roll out, scramble, or release the ball when I really didn't want to. That's real football, and I've thoroughly enjoyed games that force me to learn to deal with these factors.

It is my perspective that, as a gamer interacting with any sports game, I feel it is much more rewarding to come away with the W in a game that was played realistically. Maybe I had to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat, as I picked off a pass from Dan Marino in the endzone and then was able to run it back for a TD. Maybe my D-Line made a clutch sack that put the opponent out of FG range. If I knew these types of amazing plays were the result of some cheesy unrealistic player interctions (like an LB that jumps 20 feet in the air to make a 1-handed interception, or blockers that morph through/around their assignment), then I would feel no sense of reward for the result of the play, good or bad. At least with other games, when I get beat, and can simply accept that I didn't make the right decisions to win. When it comes to madden, it's usually more like "did the AI not fail me enough to allow the opponent to win"

The game I play most these days is APF 2k8. And, I've read other's comments in this thread citing the crazy things that happen with gold-star players. For one thing, I must say, playing with the right sliders will greatly reduce these types of things. (Personally, the best results I've seen is all sliders at 0 except interceptions, fumbles and fatigue) With the right sliders, you will find that selecting legend linemen is not a wasted pick. Secondly, you need to know how to adjust your coverage. The best way to be successful in 2k football games is to get better on defense. Roll your coverage over to the side where there are more receiver threats. Shift to a cover-1 on plays you expect to see a run from the CPU. Slider your D-Line. Send an LB on a delayed blitz. And, being that it's a video game, know that there are some routes that the AI will consistently fail to cover very well, and that you need to be able to manually use your defender to cover this loop-hole. Do these things right, and you will be able to significantly quell any of the oddities that come up against gold-star opponents.

In the end, articles like the one written by the OP frustrate me. Not because I don't understand his point. His point is valid. There will always be gamers who want an arcade style football game. The thing that frustrates me is knowing that, because of the exclusive NFL license, we gamers are left without any choice to see if more realistic NFL football titles would find their way to success as heralded as EA's with madden. At the very least, every gamer deserves to have the freedom to choose between multiple titles to get their football fix. Right now, we do not.

[Zombiecakes]

Re: Why Line Play Will Never Be Realistic in Football Games

The author apparently hasn't played NCAA on heisman difficulty. You get about 2 seconds of protection on average.

That's not realism though - that's just the game engine upping the pass rush speed and ignoring the lineman's stats to make it feel harder.

Higher difficulty does not equal more realistic, when it comes to videogames - especially if the CPU is simply "cheating" to make it harder for you to play.

[sportyguyfl31]

I feel APF does it well, but even that game doesnt do it well enough.

Im with Weeman on this one.

If I have Deacon Jones and Dexter Manley as my twin bookends against a all generic OL, Im not asking for sacks every drop back.

What I do expect is some serious stress on a consistant basis. Whoever Im playing should feel those OTs getting overwhelmed by the talent gap, forcing him to max protect.

To me, A generic player in APF is the equivelant of your joe schmoe average NFL player.

Sure, he can make the basic plays, but when matched up against elite level talent on a consistant basis, he gets exposed.

[catcatch22]

Re: Why Line Play Will Never Be Realistic in Football Games

I feel APF does it well, but even that game doesnt do it well enough.

Im with Weeman on this one.

If I have Deacon Jones and Dexter Manley as my twin bookends against a all generic OL, Im not asking for sacks every drop back.

What I do expect is some serious stress on a consistant basis. Whoever Im playing should feel those OTs getting overwhelmed by the talent gap, forcing him to max protect.

To me, A generic player in APF is the equivelant of your joe schmoe average NFL player.

Sure, he can make the basic plays, but when matched up against elite level talent on a consistant basis, he gets exposed.

You bring up a good point but what you and wee neglect is that none of these football games have ever allowed the user to call protection schemes. I mean slide left or right is hardly a protection scheme. Now it they allowed me to specifically call protection schemes and tell my back who to specifically chip and watch then instant pressure is almost unfair.

It is basically if you have no oline you can't play. Now if you allow specific user called doubles, triples, slides and chips in conjunction then it would be fair to add more realistic pass rush speeds.

[booker21]

Re: Why Line Play Will Never Be Realistic in Football Games

i guess others have mentioned.

I Don´t have a problem with Default settings being 5 to 7 sec to throw the ball.
But if i lower PB i should get realistic Pressure from the DL. Period.

Why i get sliders if these are not doing what they should?

[Niq54]

There only needs to be a few changes to create realistic line play in madden.

1. STRENGTH
STR ratings should be associated with a BULLRUSH animation/function. Most D-linemen and OLBs create penetration by pushing the O-line back, not by slipping off a ton of blocks. Using swim and spin moves. Now swim and spin moves exist typically only the elite D-linemen use these everyone else just pushes. STRENGTH/Weight should be the most important rating for a D-lineman. Haloti Ngata weighs 360lbs and dominates without spin and swim moves, but is simply stronger and bigger than most linemen. This would dramatically improve line play and also make 3-4 defenses more effective.

2. AUTOMATIC DOUBLE TEAMS:
The Game needs to establish automatic DBL Teams. A 325+ D-Lineman needs to be immediately DBL Teamed. No coach would let a 290LB Center block a 350lb Nose tackle one on one. With many teams now imploying a 3-4 defense this needs to be immediately fixed.

3. PASS BLOCK FOOTWORK
This rating should be more important than PB STR watch the NFL Combine and NFL Draft. O-line with better feet are much better that lineman with raw strength. A fast OLB should be able to get aroung a OT with a 65 PB Footwork rating.

[BezO]

Re: Why Line Play Will Never Be Realistic in Football Games

There only needs to be a few changes to create realistic line play in madden.

1. STRENGTH
STR ratings should be associated with a BULLRUSH animation/function. Most D-linemen and OLBs create penetration by pushing the O-line back, not by slipping off a ton of blocks. Using swim and spin moves. Now swim and spin moves exist typically only the elite D-linemen use these everyone else just pushes. STRENGTH/Weight should be the most important rating for a D-lineman. Haloti Ngata weighs 360lbs and dominates without spin and swim moves, but is simply stronger and bigger than most linemen. This would dramatically improve line play and also make 3-4 defenses more effective.

2. AUTOMATIC DOUBLE TEAMS:
The Game needs to establish automatic DBL Teams. A 325+ D-Lineman needs to be immediately DBL Teamed. No coach would let a 290LB Center block a 350lb Nose tackle one on one. With many teams now imploying a 3-4 defense this needs to be immediately fixed.

3. PASS BLOCK FOOTWORK
This rating should be more important than PB STR watch the NFL Combine and NFL Draft. O-line with better feet are much better that lineman with raw strength. A fast OLB should be able to get aroung a OT with a 65 PB Footwork rating.

Plus:

-Engaged player mobility which will enable edge rushing
-Edge rushing AI & animations
-Get rid of the need to engage before using a move
-More defensive moves
-Get rid of eyes-n-back-of-head AI to enable realistic overload rushes/blitzes
-Reprogram/reroute stunts with a realistic goal of a stunt in mind - confusion/occupy & beating recovering o-linemen
-Proper depth & angles of pass protection
-Realistic pass route / QB drop timing
-Realistic DB/WR interaction/animation
-Tiered defensive play calling

[catcatch22]

Re: Why Line Play Will Never Be Realistic in Football Games

-Tiered defensive play calling

How madden does not have this yet is mind boggling. This is huge allow us to call our own dline rush stunts independent of play call. 2k has been the only game to do this.

[lofeazy]

Re: Why Line Play Will Never Be Realistic in Football Games

How madden does not have this yet is mind boggling. This is huge allow us to call our own dline rush stunts independent of play call. 2k has been the only game to do this.

NFL FEVER had it also.

[Senator Palmer]

Re: Why Line Play Will Never Be Realistic in Football Games

I'm in favor of speeding things up in so far as getting receivers into their routes faster and d-linemen off the ball. At the very least, d-linemen should use their acceleration, which at present, it I don't see enough of.

Take a look at the game Tuck (91) runs on this play. I don't think my d-linemen would be able to pull off anything like this right now because of the slow developing nature of d-line movement.

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/eo3KhrgOung" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[da ThRONe]

Re: Why Line Play Will Never Be Realistic in Football Games

The problem with line play is mostly the interaction between the O-line and D-line not the speed. EA has added game speed adjustments. You want more time play @a slower speed. Speed has nothing to do with a lack of proper physics.

[shttymcgee]

Re: Why Line Play Will Never Be Realistic in Football Games

The problem with line play is mostly the interaction between the O-line and D-line not the speed. EA has added game speed adjustments. You want more time play @a slower speed. Speed has nothing to do with a lack of proper physics.

I don't know about things happening at the right speeds. Receivers definitely do not get downfield at the proper speed when compared to the drops of the QB's and the potential rush of the DL.