Phil Frazier is Leaving EA Sports Tiburon

[Dog]

Re: Phil Frazier is Leaving EA Sports Tiburon

You do realize the E3 version was alpha build right? Hell the version we played at early May community event was farther in the dev cyclelol.

I'd advise to not even bother with him.

[stoncold32]

Re: Phil Frazier is Leaving EA Sports Tiburon

16 pages about a single guy leaving a company?

WOW

[shyvoodoo]

Re: Phil Frazier is Leaving EA Sports Tiburon

Systems are what holds the technology back... Not enough memory...RAM, whatever.

With all due respect, may I ask, What's your point??
College Hoops 2k was made for this gen systems right??
If that game could do it.... and a PLAYBOX could do it..
Why couldn't they do it??

Tech is an excuse and again, NBA 2k proved that..
Next...

ben
voodoo

[dkp23]

Re: Phil Frazier is Leaving EA Sports Tiburon

"It bares pointing out that Madden 12 is really "Year 2" in Ian's 3 year plan, as Madden 11 ran into unforeseen difficulties in production that kept it from being the YoY leap from M10 that it was supposed to be. Still, some of the technological improvements on M11 are going to be central to the overall push we make for the next few years."

This pretty much explains why m11 was such a let down compared to m10. Not trying to take his words and spin it the wrong way, but I must say that m11 was a real disappointment. While I haven't been a fan of any of the Madden's in this generation starting from madden 06 due to the removal and lack of features in addition to broke physics, AI, and arcade type gameplay, the improvement from 09 to 10 was pretty significant. Although m10 had its issues, the improvement from 09 and 10 made me believe in EA again.

Before m11 came out, there was a lot of information from EA through the community interaction which gave everybody so much hope. I think some of the community guys were able to get their hands m11 during development and all i saw was glowing reviews and how the community will love m11 as it was a drastic improvement over m10. Now i am seeing the same thing this year with them saying" everyone is going to be happy"...

Finally, the game came out and I could not believe what I was playing after reading about how issues from past maddens are finally fixed and this was the year m11 will be back on the map. Real quick, here is what I thought were issues with m11:

1) terrible defensive AI
2) arcade gameplay. The physics were not humanely possible with the spin being an example. How is it some dude spins like 5 yards diagonally?
3) canned animation
4) suction
5) lack of gang tackling even with this new tackling system.
6) warping
7) abused flats
8) terrible oline/dline
9) lack of online franchise improvement and much more stuff

Aren't all these familiar issues throughout the years? Yup same old issues.

It has been six years and even with all this talk about improvements, i still take it with a grain of salt We will see how it turns out.

While phil and ian had good intentions on putting out a great game, it just seemed like the same old thing again. Cover up lack of improvements with new gimmicky features and additions. Did we need rewind?gameflow?stratpad, iq, etc? Not really. Lets redo the interface and the playcalling screen and how you pick make it look brand new. Lets do all these things, but focus on the real issue with the game, gameplay!Presentation!realism!

I see all the time from EA guys "we are listening!" I cant remember anytime somebody asked for a strat pad feature, gameflow and all this stuff because here we are again, complaining about the same old issues. All i read every year is gameplay improvements, franchise improvements and presentation. Sounds like to me they are listening but not to the community. Ian and phil will be alright, but I think it will be best with new blood came in to improve the game. Tired of the same broken engine every single year

[roadman]

Re: Phil Frazier is Leaving EA Sports Tiburon

If there's one point I can put across, it's that what you say above is 100% due to technology, and not vision. And Madden, when we joined, at the end of 09 for Phil and start of 10 for me, was in the unfortunate position of needing both major technology overhauls AND major feature additions...so you have to pick and choose where the limited time goes.

Just disagreeing with shyvoo with technology is an excuse.

I don't feel you can dismiss it, either.

This was stated earlier in the thread.

[roadman]

Re: Phil Frazier is Leaving EA Sports Tiburon

"It bares pointing out that Madden 12 is really "Year 2" in Ian's 3 year plan, as Madden 11 ran into unforeseen difficulties in production that kept it from being the YoY leap from M10 that it was supposed to be. Still, some of the technological improvements on M11 are going to be central to the overall push we make for the next few years."

This pretty much explains why m11 was such a let down compared to m10. Not trying to take his words and spin it the wrong way, but I must say that m11 was a real disappointment. While I haven't been a fan of any of the Madden's in this generation starting from madden 06 due to the removal and lack of features in addition to broke physics, AI, and arcade type gameplay, the improvement from 09 to 10 was pretty significant. Although m10 had its issues, the improvement from 09 and 10 made me believe in EA again.

Before m11 came out, there was a lot of information from EA through the community interaction which gave everybody so much hope. I think some of the community guys were able to get their hands m11 during development and all i saw was glowing reviews and how the community will love m11 as it was a drastic improvement over m10. Now i am seeing the same thing this year with them saying" everyone is going to be happy"...

Finally, the game came out and I could not believe what I was playing after reading about how issues from past maddens are finally fixed and this was the year m11 will be back on the map. Real quick, here is what I thought were issues with m11:

1) terrible defensive AI
2) arcade gameplay. The physics were not humanely possible with the spin being an example. How is it some dude spins like 5 yards diagonally?
3) canned animation
4) suction
5) lack of gang tackling even with this new tackling system.
6) warping
7) abused flats
8) terrible oline/dline
9) lack of online franchise improvement and much more stuff

Aren't all these familiar issues throughout the years? Yup same old issues.

It has been six years and even with all this talk about improvements, i still take it with a grain of salt We will see how it turns out.

While phil and ian had good intentions on putting out a great game, it just seemed like the same old thing again. Cover up lack of improvements with new gimmicky features and additions. Did we need rewind?gameflow?stratpad, iq, etc? Not really. Lets redo the interface and the playcalling screen and how you pick make it look brand new. Lets do all these things, but focus on the real issue with the game, gameplay!Presentation!realism!

I see all the time from EA guys "we are listening!" I cant remember anytime somebody asked for a strat pad feature, gameflow and all this stuff because here we are again, complaining about the same old issues. All i read every year is gameplay improvements, franchise improvements and presentation. Sounds like to me they are listening but not to the community. Ian and phil will be alright, but I think it will be best with new blood came in to improve the game. Tired of the same broken engine every single year

There was a patch that came out in December(if you kept the game that long) that tightened up 1, 2, and 7 on your list.

The others, I agree were still on the list.

Gang tackling with the new tackling system will be no more than three tacklers. Reported at E3, suction appears to be eliminated from tackling and blocking based on the feedback of the reports. Online for 12 we hear about in 6 weeks.

So, hopefully with 12, many of those will be scratched off your list. I'm still thinking 3, 6 and 8 will be still on there.

Time will tell, though.

[BlueNGold]

Re: Phil Frazier is Leaving EA Sports Tiburon

16 pages about a single guy leaving a company?

WOW

1) It's Madden. You could have a thread about the janitor at Tiburon leaving and it'd blow up.

2) Real men use at least 40 posts per page.

[BrianFifaFan]

Re: Phil Frazier is Leaving EA Sports Tiburon

The lack of focus on areas they improved upon in '10 from '09 - gameplay, presentation and polish.

I will NEVER consider community interaction a bad thing. The community may not know how to express their thoughts but through discussion and conversation will we see some great ideas flourish.

As long as the discourse is constructive we, the gamer, always wins. And believe it or not, the developers win in turn as well.

I don't disagree. But I guess that leads me into the classic "chicken or the egg" scenario. Did Ian and Phil come to this site because of all the great ideas and well imformed gamers? If yes, this forum and site will be just fine. And whoever replaces them will continue to seek input. If no, and it was deemed to be too problematic being this close to the people or that this crowd isn't really the target audience to build the game towards, they won't. Still this forum will go on. And I find it hard to believe that it will become a "silly little forum experience."

I've always enjoyed the back and forth of the gamers who care about the games far more than the "pearls from on high." It was, by nature, problematic. I guess my fundimetal question is this: Is this forum great because there were a few "somebodys," or a bunch of nobodys? I think the catering to the developers lead to bunch of unwelcome over-moderation to help keep that channel open, as well as a bunch of guys who over-stepped their bounds and took the opportunity to really just take it to a level of familiarity that was innappropriate in downright insulting the developers.

All in all, I'd rather just go back to a bunch of "nobodies" that love gaming and have some really great ideas that end up on wishlists that we give to the developers in a way that creates an orderly atmosphere. If they drop in and say "thanks, we got it and we're gonna work on it," cool. All the other day to day stuff is just too high maintenance. The guys who were only here for that aspect of the developer interaction will move on. I actually want the old, pre-Ian era back. IMO, that's why they came here in the first place, the people that made OS forums such a great place to visit. Not the "new and improved OS forums starring live developers!" So bring on the speculation and dreamers, the honest gamers who aren't trying so hard not offend the "special ones." I'm here to talk to gamers and talk about games, not bow in worship at the feet of developers....

[DJ]

Re: Phil Frazier is Leaving EA Sports Tiburon

Good post, Brian. Nice to see you back on the forums. Reminds me that I need to send you a PM; I've got some FIFA questions for you again

[roadman]

Re: Phil Frazier is Leaving EA Sports Tiburon

I don't disagree. But I guess that leads me into the classic "chicken or the egg" scenario. Did Ian and Phil come to this site because of all the great ideas and well imformed gamers? If yes, this forum and site will be just fine. And whoever replaces them will continue to seek input. If no, and it was deemed to be too problematic being this close to the people or that this crowd isn't really the target audience to build the game towards, they won't. Still this forum will go on. And I find it hard to believe that it will become a "silly little forum experience."

I've always enjoyed the back and forth of the gamers who care about the games far more than the "pearls from on high." It was, by nature, problematic. I guess my fundimetal question is this: Is this forum great because there were a few "somebodys," or a bunch of nobodys? I think the catering to the developers lead to bunch of unwelcome over-moderation to help keep that channel open, as well as a bunch of guys who over-stepped their bounds and took the opportunity to really just take it to a level of familiarity that was innappropriate in downright insulting the developers.

All in all, I'd rather just go back to a bunch of "nobodies" that love gaming and have some really great ideas that end up on wishlists that we give to the developers in a way that creates an orderly atmosphere. If they drop in and say "thanks, we got it and we're gonna work on it," cool. All the other day to day stuff is just too high maintenance. The guys who were only here for that aspect of the developer interaction will move on. I actually want the old, pre-Ian era back. IMO, that's why they came here in the first place, the people that made OS forums such a great place to visit. Not the "new and improved OS forums starring live developers!" So bring on the speculation and dreamers, the honest gamers who aren't trying so hard not offend the "special ones." I'm here to talk to gamers and talk about games, not bow in worship at the feet of developers....

Yeah, Brian, I guess I'm on the fence with this. Before Ian and Phil showed up on our doorstep, people were begging for the developers to show up. They show up and a small minority runs them out of town. It wasn't just Ian, either, I'll never forget the animation developer came to OS(think he was from NBA Street named Simon?) and people just ripped him to shreds.

To me, it's a double-edged sword.

I'd be happy if they had a gopher or Intern come in quickly and say, "Message Delivered"
from the wish list.

[canes21]

Re: Phil Frazier is Leaving EA Sports Tiburon

I don't disagree. But I guess that leads me into the classic "chicken or the egg" scenario. Did Ian and Phil come to this site because of all the great ideas and well imformed gamers? If yes, this forum and site will be just fine. And whoever replaces them will continue to seek input. If no, and it was deemed to be too problematic being this close to the people or that this crowd isn't really the target audience to build the game towards, they won't. Still this forum will go on. And I find it hard to believe that it will become a "silly little forum experience."

I've always enjoyed the back and forth of the gamers who care about the games far more than the "pearls from on high." It was, by nature, problematic. I guess my fundimetal question is this: Is this forum great because there were a few "somebodys," or a bunch of nobodys? I think the catering to the developers lead to bunch of unwelcome over-moderation to help keep that channel open, as well as a bunch of guys who over-stepped their bounds and took the opportunity to really just take it to a level of familiarity that was innappropriate in downright insulting the developers.

All in all, I'd rather just go back to a bunch of "nobodies" that love gaming and have some really great ideas that end up on wishlists that we give to the developers in a way that creates an orderly atmosphere. If they drop in and say "thanks, we got it and we're gonna work on it," cool. All the other day to day stuff is just too high maintenance. The guys who were only here for that aspect of the developer interaction will move on. I actually want the old, pre-Ian era back. IMO, that's why they came here in the first place, the people that made OS forums such a great place to visit. Not the "new and improved OS forums starring live developers!" So bring on the speculation and dreamers, the honest gamers who aren't trying so hard not offend the "special ones." I'm here to talk to gamers and talk about games, not bow in worship at the feet of developers....

I'm probably considered one of those "unwelcomed newcomers" to most of you guys, but man, I like this post a lot for some reason.

[Ian_Cummings]

Re: Phil Frazier is Leaving EA Sports Tiburon

Yeah, Brian, I guess I'm on the fence with this. Before Ian and Phil showed up on our doorstep, people were begging for the developers to show up. They show up and a small minority runs them out of town. It wasn't just Ian, either, I'll never forget the animation developer came to OS(think he was from NBA Street named Simon?) and people just ripped him to shreds.

Yep, here's Simon's tipping point: http://www.operationsports.com/forum...post2039474903


My favorite other example was Todd Batty - a really talented designer who works at EAC (now the CD on the new SSX). He came on to get feedback on Facebreaker, a game he really didn't work on except for like the final 3 weeks to try and polish the turd, but he was here for all of about 5 minutes before he couldn't take it lol. For example:

"Stop trying to justify your game. It's not making you look good, just like Dennis Dyack made himself look horrible by claiming that people that didn't like Too Human didn't get it. Maybe you look back on it in a couple of years and realize that the game wasn't everything you thought it was."

That was about all it took to make Todd run for ze hills...his last post:

"I didn't actually mean to proselytize. But being compared to Denis Dyack? That's just uncalled for."

http://www.operationsports.com/tbatty

[HealyMonster]

Re: Phil Frazier is Leaving EA Sports Tiburon

I don't disagree. But I guess that leads me into the classic "chicken or the egg" scenario. Did Ian and Phil come to this site because of all the great ideas and well imformed gamers? If yes, this forum and site will be just fine. And whoever replaces them will continue to seek input. If no, and it was deemed to be too problematic being this close to the people or that this crowd isn't really the target audience to build the game towards, they won't. Still this forum will go on. And I find it hard to believe that it will become a "silly little forum experience."

I've always enjoyed the back and forth of the gamers who care about the games far more than the "pearls from on high." It was, by nature, problematic. I guess my fundimetal question is this: Is this forum great because there were a few "somebodys," or a bunch of nobodys? I think the catering to the developers lead to bunch of unwelcome over-moderation to help keep that channel open, as well as a bunch of guys who over-stepped their bounds and took the opportunity to really just take it to a level of familiarity that was innappropriate in downright insulting the developers.

All in all, I'd rather just go back to a bunch of "nobodies" that love gaming and have some really great ideas that end up on wishlists that we give to the developers in a way that creates an orderly atmosphere. If they drop in and say "thanks, we got it and we're gonna work on it," cool. All the other day to day stuff is just too high maintenance. The guys who were only here for that aspect of the developer interaction will move on. I actually want the old, pre-Ian era back. IMO, that's why they came here in the first place, the people that made OS forums such a great place to visit. Not the "new and improved OS forums starring live developers!" So bring on the speculation and dreamers, the honest gamers who aren't trying so hard not offend the "special ones." I'm here to talk to gamers and talk about games, not bow in worship at the feet of developers....

If there were a "hug" button, I'd push it.

[CreatineKasey]

Re: Phil Frazier is Leaving EA Sports Tiburon

Best wishes to Mr. Frazier and Mr. Cummings on their future endeavors. The developer interaction for Madden 2010 pre-release was very enjoyable. I learned a lot about the game and gained an understanding of what kinds of decisions developers need to make. Coming from a guy who disliked Madden completely to a first day hardcore player stems strongly from these two guys and their interaction here at OS.

As for the state of the game, we are seeing a lot of things that we at OS have requested for years. Obviously we don't agree with every addition or change, but it's clear to me they did use information from this site to make decisions. I appreciate that. Madden 2012 should bring another fall season of football fun!

See you guys on the field this fall.

[Eddie1967]

Re: Phil Frazier is Leaving EA Sports Tiburon

Yep, here's Simon's tipping point: http://www.operationsports.com/forum...post2039474903


My favorite other example was Todd Batty - a really talented designer who works at EAC (now the CD on the new SSX). He came on to get feedback on Facebreaker, a game he really didn't work on except for like the final 3 weeks to try and polish the turd, but he was here for all of about 5 minutes before he couldn't take it lol. For example:

"Stop trying to justify your game. It's not making you look good, just like Dennis Dyack made himself look horrible by claiming that people that didn't like Too Human didn't get it. Maybe you look back on it in a couple of years and realize that the game wasn't everything you thought it was."

That was about all it took to make Todd run for ze hills...his last post:

"I didn't actually mean to proselytize. But being compared to Denis Dyack? That's just uncalled for."

http://www.operationsports.com/tbatty

I know some of the people here at OS are over the top with their criticisms but I think part of the anger is because people were sick of having a sub par product year after year.