My take on the Player Progression "Issue"

[pointNumberOne]

Re: My take on the Player Progression "Issue"

You and I have been through this, and I wouldn't scarp displaying overall and individual ratings altogether. I would have the actual ratings for overall, individual, and potential be hidden, and just show perceived ratings for all, accuracy of the perceived ratings based on how good your GM, Coaching Staff and Scouts are at evaluating talent.

Actual ratings are somewhat hidden this year, with the dynamic player performance factored in.

I don't mind knowing exactly what somebody's OVR and numbers are *right now*, I just don't want to know *from the start* exactly how good that player might be someday.

[bucky60]

Re: My take on the Player Progression "Issue"

Actual ratings are somewhat hidden this year, with the dynamic player performance factored in.

I don't mind knowing exactly what somebody's OVR and numbers are *right now*, I just don't want to know *from the start* exactly how good that player might be someday.

I don't mind knowing after they've been in the league for X number of years. Everyone knows how good Brady, Manning, Brees and Rodgers are. But the young players, I think we should have only a perceived view of there ratings. Which I think goes along with the bold.

They can even get fancy and have different perceived values for the current system your team is running.

[ghostlight85]

Re: My take on the Player Progression "Issue"

You and I have been through this, and I wouldn't scarp displaying overall and individual ratings altogether. I would have the actual ratings for overall, individual, and potential be hidden, and just show perceived ratings for all, accuracy of the perceived ratings based on how good your GM, Coaching Staff and Scouts are at evaluating talent.

I go back and forth on it. I think if you have a representation of where a player is valued by the league and you have his individual ratings, when you are trying to find someone to sign you can see a disparity between his value and his individual ratings. If the overall becomes a perceived overall, that's a perfectly acceptable solution too.

I'm just tired of making decisions on personnel and knowing instantly or even before making it if it was the right one or the wrong one. There's really no such thing as a bad free agent signing.

[CRMosier_LM]

Re: My take on the Player Progression "Issue"

I think we can all agree that player progression in madden 12 needs work. I understand both sides of the spectrum in terms of people saying it should be unlimited and that potential should have a cap and etc. I think the main problem is how we as madden gamers have received roster updates and adjustments from madden title to madden title and in recent online updates, week to week. We are used to having a player who has a breakout season in the NFL to get the ratings love that next season when we receive our madden copies. It is natural for us to expect that when we tear it up with a guy who is a C potential or whatever to get a pretty sizeable ratings increase when we advance to that next season. It has been ingrained in our madden psyche. That is how madden ratings are determined, off of STATS and team impact. Not off of, well we think he might be this good so he can only progress this many points. But, is it possible that the progression system could be broken? Take this scenario for example: In my Bengals franchise, Cedric Benson had a career season. He rushed for over 2,000 yds and tied Ladanian Tomlinson's rushing TD record in a season of 28. Benson also won the MVP that year and started in the pro bowl and my Bengals won the superbowl that year. Now, i go to the off season after the progressions take place and explain to me how Benson goes from an 81 ovr to an 80 ovr after a season like that??? Yes, he went DOWN a point. Now explain to me how that is supposed to make sense? Dont worry i'll wait.....

How old is Benson? 30? So he is hitting the point in his career when all running backs abilities go south correct? If he got the stats you say with his current ratings why should he go up in overall? Just because a player in your system has a great year doesn't increase his value to other teams that use a different system. Because he had a great season that should make his speed, agility, accel, and carry go up? What exactly should improve? Maybe his ball carrier vision?! You could argue that but that really means nothing since you are controlling him. So which ratings should increase exactly?

[bucky60]

Re: My take on the Player Progression "Issue"

I'm just tired of making decisions on personnel and knowing instantly or even before making it if it was the right one or the wrong one. There's really no such thing as a bad free agent signing.

Yep, I agree, but I would like a quick way to sort through players to get a rough idea on who I want to look at in more detail. Also, I would like some reasonable evaluation for those players that have not had a chance to play/produce. I just can't go on production. I also think that actual ratings should be hidden. The physical ratings that we see should be fairly accurate, but the other ratings should be just a little vague. Do we really know how good a rookies hands are? We have an idea maybe, but you don't know until they play. I would like evaluators to become a part of this, the evaluators that exist in real NFL Football.

[pointNumberOne]

Re: My take on the Player Progression "Issue"

I don't mind knowing after they've been in the league for X number of years. Everyone knows how good Brady, Manning, Brees and Rodgers are. But the young players, I think we should have only a perceived view of there ratings. Which I think goes along with the bold.

They can even get fancy and have different perceived values for the current system your team is running.

I haven't thought enough about hiding the OVR rating, I was referring only to hiding the potential. I meant I don't mind knowing exactly how good my player is at this point in time, but want to be left wondering if he'll get better (or worse).

[bucky60]

Re: My take on the Player Progression "Issue"

I haven't thought enough about hiding the OVR rating, I was referring only to hiding the potential. I meant I don't mind knowing exactly how good my player is at this point in time, but want to be left wondering if he'll get better (or worse).

I don't want to know exactly how good my player is right now, unless he's been on my team or in the NFL for a while. I like the concept that EA/TIB is using for the drafted and undrafted rookies in Madden Offline Franchise. I just think it wasn't implemented nearly as well as it should be.

[timmuh1515]

Re: My take on the Player Progression "Issue"

I think we can all agree that player progression in madden 12 needs work.

He rushed for over 2,000 yds and tied Ladanian Tomlinson's rushing TD record in a season of 28......

I cut some stuff out just to comment on.

First...i think almost everyone would like the progression adjusted. For me personally i would like more flexibly per player instead of an overall progression model. Maybe that is affected by the stats some, or by the size and build of a player, or his role on the team, or his personality (work-ethic), or an injury or numerous other options mixed together.

As for the second part of your email. I think referencing LT's huge season is perfect.

LT rushed for 1,815 with 28 TDs. Everything went right for him

next year

he rushed for 1,474 with 15 TDs.
next year 1,110 with 11 TDs

Players regress with age...especially RBs. A big ratings boost after a huge statistical season doesn't mean the following year he'll be better because in 90% of cases that same player will have a worse year.

[iamwubbie]

Re: My take on the Player Progression "Issue"

This sort of thing is why we were given the ability to edit our players at the end of the season. The Issue now is they lose their player roles... when edited......

If you want to edit players like this, then simply do it at the end of the season after the Super Bowl. They'll lose their roles, but the game will re-do all the player roles at the beginning of the offseason anyway.

[iamwubbie]

Re: My take on the Player Progression "Issue"

The Alex Smith situation is just like the Cedric Benson one: if Alex Smith did that in real life, we'd assume his old ratings were incorrect and update them so he could perform like that in Madden. But if he's doing it in your Franchise, he's already doing it in Madden, thus there's no adjustment needed. It would indeed be a nice feeling if you were able to see Alex Smith listed among the best rated quarterbacks when you go to Player Management, but there's no justification for it.

I don't disagree with you. THAT is the reason why Madden doesn't progress people after a good season, and it's logically correct. I have no qualms with it.

But players DO improve after year 3, albeit at a slower rate. I don't think anyone would argue that. It just annoys me that we don't see that progression over time. I'd like to see future Maddens improve technical ratings like accuracy, awareness, pass-block footwork over time.

I guess the reason people are so attached to stats-based progression is because the game isn't very good about highlighting stars in the game and rewarding great performances. Yes, there's the Pro Bowl, Weekly, and Yearly awards, Hall of Fame, but do those have any in-game impact? Does the awards system have any impact on a player's free agency and trade value? When the commentary talks about players, do they mention that Alex Smith or Cedric Benson has been playing very well this season? I'm very glad they re-introduced Player Roles and would like to see that become a more important feature in the future.

In real-life, if Alex Smith were to have a Pro Bowl this season and next, and was a top statistical performer... he'd have high trade value. If he went to free agency, he'd have a good amount of suitors and could demand pretty good money. The 49ers would not feel the need to draft a QB in the first round. But in Madden, even if he performed very well, he wouldn't have much trade value. He'd get few offers in free agency, if any. The 49ers would draft a QB (assuming there's no Kaepernick in the roster). It's because his in-game rating is at the average 77, 78 OVR.

I don't speak for everyone when I say this because I know many people just want to see their favorite players in the high 90s, but because the game only looks at ratings when they make roster decisions and who to gameplan against, the only recourse is to adjust ratings. My rationale is that Alex Smith is performing at the same level as, say, Michael Vick or Aaron Rodgers, so I feel there's a need to update his ratings to reflect that, and the AI will then value Smith.

Didn't NFL Head coach use a different system for players? For instance, some players like Aaron Rodgers could be a 90s overall in most systems, under most coaches, but Alex Smith could be a 60 overall under one coach/system, but a 90 overall in another?

I just think that there needs to be more to it than ratings. I think that ratings should be hidden, while Player Roles (based off of both the hidden ratings and prior season performance) should be what the AI and users can see.

[ghostlight85]

Re: My take on the Player Progression "Issue"

But players DO improve after year 3, albeit at a slower rate. I don't think anyone would argue that. It just annoys me that we don't see that progression over time. I'd like to see future Maddens improve technical ratings like accuracy, awareness, pass-block footwork over time.

Agreed, but I'd rather tie it into coaching and other factors not currently involved.

I guess the reason people are so attached to stats-based progression is because the game isn't very good about highlighting stars in the game and rewarding great performances. Yes, there's the Pro Bowl, Weekly, and Yearly awards, Hall of Fame, but do those have any in-game impact? Does the awards system have any impact on a player's free agency and trade value? When the commentary talks about players, do they mention that Alex Smith or Cedric Benson has been playing very well this season? I'm very glad they re-introduced Player Roles and would like to see that become a more important feature in the future.

I agree the game doesn't do enough of this, but it should be solved through commentary and presentation. I don't like Overall rating to be used as a recognition of success. It needs to be a precursor to success. I think your view on this is interesting though. I think a value rating instead of the overall is what's needed in terms of in-game impact.

...because the game only looks at ratings when they make roster decisions and who to gameplan against, the only recourse is to adjust ratings. My rationale is that Alex Smith is performing at the same level as, say, Michael Vick or Aaron Rodgers, so I feel there's a need to update his ratings to reflect that, and the AI will then value Smith.

Have the game look at production (value rating) and (projected) overall both when making decisions. This would solve what I agree is a big issue. Even though I am adamant that production should not dictate progression, it should have a huge impact on value around the league.

Didn't NFL Head coach use a different system for players? For instance, some players like Aaron Rodgers could be a 90s overall in most systems, under most coaches, but Alex Smith could be a 60 overall under one coach/system, but a 90 overall in another?

I think one cool way to include this kind of thing would be a hidden trait called change of scenery or fresh start. Essentially it would make it so certain guys get a big ratings boost when they leave a bad situation.

[iamwubbie]

Re: My take on the Player Progression "Issue"

Agreed, but I'd rather tie it into coaching and other factors not currently involved.

I agree the game doesn't do enough of this, but it should be solved through commentary and presentation. I don't like Overall rating to be used as a recognition of success. It needs to be a precursor to success. I think your view on this is interesting though. I think a value rating instead of the overall is what's needed in terms of in-game impact.

Have the game look at production (value rating) and (projected) overall both when making decisions. This would solve what I agree is a big issue. Even though I am adamant that production should not dictate progression, it should have a huge impact on value around the league.

I think one cool way to include this kind of thing would be a hidden trait called change of scenery or fresh start. Essentially it would make it so certain guys get a big ratings boost when they leave a bad situation.

Does EA have a formal way to submit ideas to them? I know that they get criticized a lot, but I do really feel like they listen. The development team often talks about how they "talk to people on the boards" to get feedback and ideas.

I'd like to submit ideas/opinions. Chances are, they could go on deaf ears or they don't reach the proper people, but you never know if you don't try?

I'm sure they get a lot of "smart" opinions, and a load of "poorly thought-out" opinions as well.

[KBLover]

Re: My take on the Player Progression "Issue"

I think progression should be impacted by:

-Coaching Staff
-Production to a degree
-Career arc (i.e. is this player in the growing phase/decline phase/steady phase)
-Injuries

I think ratings need to have individual potential as well, and this is one area where production could help.

I also view progression as scouts re-evaluating the player. This is where the individual potential ratings could changes as well as the players actual ratings - representing an improved/changing outlook on the player. It should take longer than one season, though. Players could have career years or just seasons where it didn't click for whatever reasons - scouts/coaches are aware of that.

Bring back the production rating and use it for next year's modifiers. If the production rating stays high in pre-season, give the player some boost. If he keeps it up during the year - more boost. If he has a bad game or two, don't drop him just yet - see what he does later, everyone has bad games.

Production would be relative to the league at his position (and, ideally, his depth slot - that way a #3 WR could break out, get a shot at #1 and have a high production modifier, but if he gets shutdown by facing the team's best corner/focus of opp. defenses, his production rating will drop and his ratings will follow, and the team might move him back down the depth chart to stablize him/"get his head back in the game" and find out where his levels are).

Something like that could allow it to be more dynamic without stats being the only determining factor.

I do disagree with any idea that it should be unlimited. Players do not have unlimited potential. They have unknown amounts of potential that's a foggy guess at best. The problem is that in Madden, there's no guessing (aside from rookies and UDFAs this year), we KNOW what the potential is.

We need options for a true "Fog of War" with accuracy based on scouting agency, years in league, and downs played (playing time).

We need injuries to have the chance to sidetrack a budding career, put the final nail in a vets coffin, or short circuit a vet's revival/late blooming. Individual potential could help here too. Make it relative to injury and drop the actual and potential by some amount with some randomness/influence based on TGH (Toughness, could be used to also represent work ethic/battling through the adversity of injury - especially if it's serious).

A career arc with variances would help. Not all skills grow/drop at the same point in a career. Like one person said, AWR and technical skills tend to improve with experience, while physical skills probably grow best on young, fresher bodies. Perhaps bring playing time into this as well. I remember one analyst saying Plax might "play younger than his age" due to his jail time and not getting 2 years of pounding in the league. That kind of influence. A vet on the bench isn't as pounded on, especially for positions like HB/FB.

I think progression needs a lot of fleshing out - involving production is one area, but I think that's part of a bigger puzzle.

[JKIRBY54]

Re: My take on the Player Progression "Issue"

How old is Benson? 30? So he is hitting the point in his career when all running backs abilities go south correct? If he got the stats you say with his current ratings why should he go up in overall? Just because a player in your system has a great year doesn't increase his value to other teams that use a different system. Because he had a great season that should make his speed, agility, accel, and carry go up? What exactly should improve? Maybe his ball carrier vision?! You could argue that but that really means nothing since you are controlling him. So which ratings should increase exactly?

I would say his awareness and ball carrier vision should go up. His carry rating should go up as well considering he had only two fumbles on the year.

Maybe a 2 point boost on acceleration because he had 6+ runs that year that were long runs.

I just find it odd that he went down from an 81 to an 80 after a season like that. Wouldn't that piss u off just a little bit? Because you know good and well that if he did that in real life, donny moore would give him at least an 8 pt ratings boost after a season like that. That made me wanna quit my franchise.

Glad we can at least edit the ratings, but there is that stupid glitch and i kinda see editing your ratings in franchise as cheating in a way. I'd rather the system be smart enough to progrees the players correctly.

[ghostlight85]

Re: My take on the Player Progression "Issue"

I would say his awareness and ball carrier vision should go up. His carry rating should go up as well considering he had only two fumbles on the year.

Maybe a 2 point boost on acceleration because he had 6+ runs that year that were long runs.

I just find it odd that he went down from an 81 to an 80 after a season like that. Wouldn't that piss u off just a little bit? Because you know good and well that if he did that in real life, donny moore would give him at least an 8 pt ratings boost after a season like that. That made me wanna quit my franchise.

Glad we can at least edit the ratings, but there is that stupid glitch and i kinda see editing your ratings in franchise as cheating in a way. I'd rather the system be smart enough to progrees the players correctly.

I'd rather the game play true enough to it's ratings that Cedric Benson didn't rush for 2000 yards. He's not that good, he'll never be that good. If he did do it in real life it would be because the Bengals force fed him the ball, just like you could do on madden. And that wouldn't really result in him becoming a better player. Donny Moore probably would rate him 8 points higher, and he'd be wrong to do it.