My take on the Player Progression "Issue"

[jlukes]

Re: My take on the Player Progression "Issue"

I think we can all agree that player progression in madden 12 needs work. I understand both sides of the spectrum in terms of people saying it should be unlimited and that potential should have a cap and etc. I think the main problem is how we as madden gamers have received roster updates and adjustments from madden title to madden title and in recent online updates, week to week. We are used to having a player who has a breakout season in the NFL to get the ratings love that next season when we receive our madden copies. It is natural for us to expect that when we tear it up with a guy who is a C potential or whatever to get a pretty sizeable ratings increase when we advance to that next season. It has been ingrained in our madden psyche. That is how madden ratings are determined, off of STATS and team impact. Not off of, well we think he might be this good so he can only progress this many points. But, is it possible that the progression system could be broken? Take this scenario for example: In my Bengals franchise, Cedric Benson had a career season. He rushed for over 2,000 yds and tied Ladanian Tomlinson's rushing TD record in a season of 28. Benson also won the MVP that year and started in the pro bowl and my Bengals won the superbowl that year. Now, i go to the off season after the progressions take place and explain to me how Benson goes from an 81 ovr to an 80 ovr after a season like that??? Yes, he went DOWN a point. Now explain to me how that is supposed to make sense? Dont worry i'll wait.....

In 2005, Shaun Alexander had 1,880 yards and 27 TDs. The following year, he had 896 yards and 7 TDs.

So yes, players DO regress after career years. Especially older RBs.

[asterisk]

Re: My take on the Player Progression "Issue"

In real-life, if Alex Smith were to have a Pro Bowl this season and next, and was a top statistical performer... he'd have high trade value. If he went to free agency, he'd have a good amount of suitors and could demand pretty good money. The 49ers would not feel the need to draft a QB in the first round. But in Madden, even if he performed very well, he wouldn't have much trade value. He'd get few offers in free agency, if any. The 49ers would draft a QB (assuming there's no Kaepernick in the roster). It's because his in-game rating is at the average 77, 78 OVR.

Very true, Madden has no system in place to simulate this, which really limits the realism of league-wide roster moves. You're right, if Alex Smith had a Pro Bowl year in your Franchise, he should definitely be more valued by any team and by all other teams in turn

This solution draws heavily from ghostlight's and KBLover's ideas:

Each player should have a Value rating that's based on production and age/potential in addition to their actual OVR rating. When you start a Franchise, you can't see the OVR rating for any player in the league, only their Value and approximations of other ratings, but nothing concrete. You don't get to see the players' actual ratings until they've played meaningful minutes for your team in several regular season games. Maybe have a certain number of downs played at their position, so you'll know your starters' ratings in just a few weeks but won't know for sure how good your fourth string WR is until 10 games into the season.

Not only would it improve realism for CPU roster changes and off-season moves, it'd open the door for player holdouts! When a player is putting together good seasons and his Value jumps from 78 to 93, he's not going to want to play on his old contract!

Haven't fully fleshed the idea out in my head yet, but there'd have to be some way to arrive at the player's approximate ratings in a way that you'd at least be able to tell what sort of player he is, which Value and stats alone can't tell you. Maybe have the approximation of physical attributes like SPD and STR and THP be relatively accurate, depending on how talented the scouts are on your team. Have all the approximation of skill attributes tied to actual production (0 fumbles = 99 CAR) and have the accuracy of those ratings tied to Value and your scouting ability. And for things like finesse/power moves and playing the ball in the air, you have the Tendencies page.

Edit: I really like this concept, I might make a new thread about it.... I haven't even considered the coaching staff and the system yet, which a few of you have mentioned... I'd love to meet with you guys and bounce ideas off each other, and then we can storm the EA headquarters and change the course of Madden history forever.

We need injuries to have the chance to sidetrack a budding career, put the final nail in a vets coffin, or short circuit a vet's revival/late blooming. Individual potential could help here too. Make it relative to injury and drop the actual and potential by some amount with some randomness/influence based on TGH (Toughness, could be used to also represent work ethic/battling through the adversity of injury - especially if it's serious).

I love this idea. It'd add a lot of realism and variability to Franchise mode and make injuries a very big concern.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: My take on the Player Progression "Issue"

I read through this entire thread and saw many ideas that I liked. However, the POV of player progression in Madden is skewed, imo. Like others have said, aside from young players still tuning their skill sets, only a select few ratings should have the potential of "progression". Ratings like awareness, foot work, route running, should progress based on coaching staff but not from performance/stats. Player stats should only dictate "value" and player contract demands.

To use the OP's scenario as an example, having a season like that with Cedric Benson should not progress his skill ratings but cause him to demand more money or be traded with the threat of sitting out. His "value" should be raised making more teams willing to make a deal for him.

My issue with ratings is I don't understand why every rating we have has to be displayed. I think there should be 500+ rating categories but hidden and working under the hood. Think about it, INJ rating is too vague and there should be a rating for 0-100 for various body parts and sections. Like Foot, Leg, Knee, Ankle, Chest, etc injuries with 0-100 ratings, hidden. Then, display a simple interface for Users like a full body diagram with a progressive color scheme to highlight injury resistance in each area along with a displayed injury history.

This should be the theme for ratings, a displayed OVR "value", displayed AWR based on a player's time in the coach's/coordinator's scheme, a displayed Tecmo-like player skill assessment ranging from Excellent-Bad for the current ratings, displayed player stats including combine data, full body diagram with injury history and numerous additional rating's categories with exact numerical data hidden but working under the hood.

This way Benson would progress in AWR, OVR "value" as well as maybe his carry/vision assessment improving, while preventing some stat based ratings explosion.

[Dwaresacksqb]

Re: My take on the Player Progression "Issue"

In 2005, Shaun Alexander had 1,880 yards and 27 TDs. The following year, he had 896 yards and 7 TDs.

So yes, players DO regress after career years. Especially older RBs.

Ok but Madden still recognized his career year did they not? All that we want is atleast a little reward for doing the same thing in OUR game of madden. It probably felt so good to get those numbers and win the MVP with benson. But madden had to crash his party by actually lowering his stats. Madden has WAY to many problems to NOT be properly awarding people for their performance in THEIR GAME!

If you want to keep it true to how you feel a player should perform? Then u could do that. Just don't put up crazy numbers with what u would call average players. You could have it your way and we could have it our way without pissing people off and making them feel like their season they just had was inadequate and meaningless.

[RogueHominid]

Re: My take on the Player Progression "Issue"

With regard to the Benson issue, there are lots of factors to take into account, as others have said.

That is certainly an amazing performance, but progression in terms of physical attributes is not warranted on the basis of statistics. Backs at his age don't get faster, they don't get quicker, they don't often get stronger, though they can. Rather, they degenerate either more or less quickly than their peers at that age.

I'd say that with a great statistical year your best case scenario is an even rating or a small drop, especially if he got a lot of touches. I'd think speed would decline a point or two, perhaps agility as well and acceleration just a bit. Strength probably could remain the same, as well as the other ballcarrier attributes such as moves and blocking and hands.

I really think players should only get boosts in raw physical attributes very early in their careers. Perhaps young guys get stronger from NFL nutrition and lifting programs, but I'd be surprised if many guys actually gained speed and agility and acceleration in the 7th year of their careers, unless of course they dropped a lot of weight.

Better I think is an increase in awareness and the position-specific ratings, coupled with a higher chance of maintaining peak performance for a longer-than-average period of time.

[KBLover]

Re: My take on the Player Progression "Issue"

But madden had to crash his party by actually lowering his stats. Madden has WAY to many problems to NOT be properly awarding people for their performance in THEIR GAME!

Because older players getting worse is a problem with the game?

If franchise is supposed to be simulating the growth and decline of NFL players? Why would an older HB get better?

Stay the same/decline slowly? Possibly. Ray Lewis is still doing his thing, but I wouldn't say he's getting BETTER. If anything, he's slowing down physically, but his experience and other "intangibles" allow him to still be very productive as well as the fact he's declining from a high point of ability, so it will likely take longer before he's unproductive.

That's where the problem in Madden's progression is, imo, "intangibles"/techniques don't overcome physical declines (or raise even if physical abilities drop because things don't rise and fall independently). Not that there's no "reward the user" gains for players.

[steamboat]

Re: My take on the Player Progression "Issue"

What if I said that LT's big year, Shaun Alexanders big year CONTRIBUTED to their decline the subsequent year. They both carried the ball more then usual, expended more energy per carry, and thus would contribute to physical "ratings" decline. That if they had carried the ball 100 less times in their "big year" they would have lasted longer as "top flight" running backs. Why do you think nearly everyone is going to two or more running backs now? Its not because those two are always equal in value. If you run for 2000 yards with Cedric Benson, you ran for 2000 yards with his ratings. To get an increase in ratings at age 30 because of the production of the previous year would just then cause you to run for 2200 yards the next year. I agree with others that there should be a value rating such as production, that is used as well as age to come up with contract demands and trade offers. However, even this has some potential problems because of how the rating system works in Madden. You run for 2000 yards with Cedric Benson, then the next year trade him for a guy who ran for 800 yards, but is better rated then Benson. You then run for 2500 yards with the new guy, rinse and repeat. I've always stated that the biggest problem with madden, and with any non text based game is that the ratings are concrete and seen with no objectivity. I'd much prefer to see a rating system similar to say Out of the Park baseball with scouting turned on then the current system. That way, you have this guy he's just 60 overall, but you gotta start him cause people are injured, and then wow..he just ate people alive and jumped to 87. Was he ever really 60? No, your scouts just did not see his true stats and after repetition and production analysis his rating got closer (albeit probably artificially high) to his actual ratings. The way Madden is now does not truly allow for a Miles Austin or Tony Romo. Few had them pegged as A potential players coming in, but they proved the scouts wrong. A true scouting system is the cure for what ails you, not a statistical based progression that would cause numerous game-killing pitfalls.

[bucky60]

Re: My take on the Player Progression "Issue"

Ok but Madden still recognized his career year did they not? All that we want is atleast a little reward for doing the same thing in OUR game of madden.

I would rather have things be realistic instead of arcade.

[bucky60]

Re: My take on the Player Progression "Issue"

The way Madden is now does not truly allow for a Miles Austin or Tony Romo. Few had them pegged as A potential players coming in, but they proved the scouts wrong.

Madden does allow for this in the current system. They are the later round draft picks with high potential. That's your Romo. I would like to see this become even more realistic by hiding the players true potential and go by the GM's, Scouts and Coaches best guess on what it is for the player. That best guess would be more or less accurate depending on how good your evaluators are and some random luck. So I'm with you on the scouting reports thing.

A true scouting system is the cure for what ails you, not a statistical based progression that would cause numerous game-killing pitfalls.

YES, enhance the current system to get it even closer to how things work in real life, within reason. Statistical based progression is great in an arcade system. And people are not wrong for wanted arcade. I personally want realism. Stats based progression is horribly bad for realism. I'm right there with ya.