There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

[N51_rob]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

Another "issue" with the passing game that really chaps my ***. (I also will have video of this for reference.) I call a play with my outside WR running a deep (10 yards+) dig route (with an outside break). He is suppose to break off his route about 1 yard deep in the endzone. At the snap I see the DB in cover 3 with his leverage inside. I'm thinking this works out perfect, so as I check the middle crossing route (no good) I come back to the deep dig. I am anticipating my receiver breaking off the vertical route and coming back to the ball seeing how he is a step into the endzone so I throw the ball to him, expecting him to come back to the open area underneath the coverage. He never breaks off his route and keeps going upfield, so my throw goes up the field and into the arms of the CB playing cover 3.

This situation is the one that really bugs the hell out of me. I am expecting the receiver to do one thing, and he never does. It wasn't an option route, there was no HFA as we were the home team. It was Kevin Walters of the Texans. It's one thing if I make a bad throw/read and force a ball into coverage. I can accept that, it is another when I am doing what I am suppose to and reading the defense and anticipating (there's that word again) something to happen and it doesn't. QB's are not looking at receivers running routes in "real" football, they are reading the defense and making decisions based on what the coverage is doing vs their called play. There are numerous times where Madden wants you to look at your receiver not the defense to make a throw.

Like I said, when I finish editing the video I will share it with the thread, so it's not just words, but actual evidence. Might be tomorrow.

Here is the video. Watch the WRs on the left and right. Neither one runs the correct route. Can we please get this fixed?

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[baller7345]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

Here is the video. Watch the WRs on the left and right. Neither one runs the correct route. Can we please get this fixed?

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Those are 15 yard comeback routes (some of my favorite routes in the game). The playart is very bad at representing them as they run about 5 yards deeper than the play art indicates before they make the comeback portion of the route. Once you get the timing down you can throw a lob about 5 steps before they turn around or a bullet about 2 steps before they turn around and still get the ball thrown on the comeback route. The playart is essentially showing you a smart routed comeback which makes no sense and leads to a lot of head aches if you don't know that they actually run deeper than that but they do run their correct routes.

[N51_rob]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

Those are 15 yard comeback routes (some of my favorite routes in the game). The playart is very bad at representing them as they run about 5 yards deeper than the play art indicates before they make the comeback portion of the route. Once you get the timing down you can throw a lob about 5 steps before they turn around or a bullet about 2 steps before they turn around and still get the ball thrown on the comeback route. The playart is essentially showing you a smart routed comeback which makes no sense and leads to a lot of head aches if you don't know that they actually run deeper than that but they do run their correct routes.

If that is the case, that is totally unacceptable. Like I said in my first post. I am anticipating him coming back one yard deep in the endzone, not 5 yards deeper. But what you say makes no sense, because Walter runs all the way to the back of the endzone, which makes it about a 20 yard route, and even at that point he didnt make a move back for the ball.

[baller7345]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

If that is the case, that is totally unacceptable. Like I said in my first post. I am anticipating him coming back one yard deep in the endzone, not 5 yards deeper. But what you say makes no sense, because Walter runs all the way to the back of the endzone, which makes it about a 20 yard route, and even at that point he didnt make a move back for the ball.

Go run one in practice mode without the defense (just watch) and you'll see what I mean. They will run a comeback but EA just sucks at play-art. They should have it drawn right but EA has never done that well.

[N51_rob]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

If that is really the case then we agree on that, the play art sucks.

[RogueHominid]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

This discussion isn't counter-productive, per se... It has been productive to elicit several ideas about what's wrong with the passing system and the ancillary items that aren't part of the passing system, but are typically witnessed alongside it (catching systems, coverage systems, animation systems, etc).

It has also been productive in determining what parts of the passing interface are off-limits because the Madden faithful, like myself, are unwilling to do without. Unfortunately, a vast majority of die-hard Madden fans do not post at OS so to the casual observer it seems as if Madden has few if any real fans who play the game happily - while still having the ability to recognize and acknowledge that the game could be improved.

To the outside observer, we seem to be either hard-headed Madden fan boys that are so conservative that anything less than the status quo is unwelcome OR whiny Madden haters who won't stop until they have disrupted the feel of the brand to have it become something altogether different. All the while EA is trying to please both groups in ways that make neither happy with the product.

We've also seen plenty of people making demands that seemingly seek to hold the brand hostage - despite their not having bought or played the game in years. When non-customers make demands of the series that change the feel of the brand, it upsets loyal customers who buy Madden every year without fail because of it.

If you haven't bought Madden in years - EA isn't missing your money; If people like me stop buying Madden - EA WILL CERTAINLY MISS OURS.

Does that mean my opinion is worth more? Not really. But a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. It requires more dollars to get new customers than to keep the ones you have.

Wooing guys that don't play Madden, is a risk. Even if you put everything they want in the game, they still might not buy it. That said, putting everything guys who don't buy Madden want in the game is likely to alienate the die-hard fan because of the emphasis on changing the feel of the game...

Why chase the "here today - gone tomorrow" fans when the "here always" fans are just as adamant about wanting a better game albeit with a different focus than the fickle football gamer.

I just think some things are common sense. If I were going to ask a question about the passing game's deficiencies - I wouldn't ask a guy that hasn't bought or played the game in 5 years. Alas... the passing system can be vastly improved - we simply don't agree on HOW because guys that haven't played Madden seriously enough to master the mechanics complain about the things they don't know exist.

That's why this conversation is productive and counter-productive at the same time.

Later

Later

Sorta. The thread is all stuff that's been said a thousand times for this Madden and Madden's past games, so in that sense it's really not advancing the debate. It's just a new thread for saying the same old stuff.

My perspective on this is that if you don't like how it works, harping on the same old things isn't going to get you anywhere. Changing some ratings and sliders will. Why not spend more time working that out and enjoying the results?

[Smoke6]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

My perspective on this is that if you don't like how it works, harping on the same old things isn't going to get you anywhere. Changing some ratings and sliders will. Why not spend more time working that out and enjoying the results?

This perspective is whats wrong with every industry, "just put a band-aid on it, you should be fine! But we do hear you!"

[KBLover]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

This perspective is whats wrong with every industry, "just put a band-aid on it, you should be fine! But we do hear you!"

Except the difference is that as gamers, the band-aids are all we have.

None of us works at EA or can REALLY mod this game (man I wish this was on PC), so what else do we have? Even if this was on PC with mods, those are still (largely) band-aids, though they are typically much more powerful bandages.

Yes, mention what's screwed, and no, don't be happy about it. At the same time, mentioning what's screwed, kicking the dog and being mad isn't...unscrewing the game. Applying the band-aids might at least make it less screwed and save your dog from being on IR with bruised ribs.

[KBLover]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

So when I hear people talking about what fundamentals that may not be accurately reflected in Madden (physics, momentum, etc...) I contrast those against whether they diminish the value of Personnel, Position, or Tempo. THEY NEVER DO. Unless an issue devalues the only factors that matter - Personnel, Position, and Tempo - it's just and excuse.

It's not an excuse.

Everything that is incorrect in Madden is NOT just some player making up reasons why he lost.

The flaws in Madden certainly can influence Position/Personnel/Tempo. In fact, being good enough on the sticks can negate personnel because ratings become largely meaningless, especially on default All-Pro.

Position doesn't mean enough in Madden - In fact, that's the whole sliding/morphing/warping issue and why it's so damaging. When defenders can clip/morph through WR to pick off passes, slide around, not require time to change direction, or the jumping thing like we discussed once - these all impact positioning. The split second differences matter in the real game. In Madden, they all just get smushed together (and it doesn't help that the field is too small so errors of position, either by the player making the wrong decision or the offense exploiting the play the defense called, do not hurt as much as they should.

Personnel doesn't matter as much as it should because the ratings are so packed together, many of the players grade out and play like clones of each other. There's too little of differentiation between tendencies and tactical choices players can make (for example, does the corner play effective coverage by playing the ball or the receiver? does he often jump routes or lay out the receiver as the ball is there?). These kinds of things differentiate players in the real game even those who have similar skill levels.

Let alone representing various ways of success. When the Madden crew has to increase Revis' rating so he can "play like he does in reality", that's telling. Revis is not blazing fast in real life, that's not why he's good. Things like that hamper personnel decisions across all levels of skill tiers - mainly because there's not a whole lot of decisions to really make.

And in the passing game, the passes has such crap velocity, even when thrown by 90+ THP QBs. This allows defenders to be farther off the needed spot to make plays, while in the real game, the defender would be just "this much" late and it's a TD instead of a INT.

Tempo - sure, you can speed up and slow down the offense. You can get, or disrupt, rhythm. The problem is how you get there and the risk/reward involved which doesn't always represent true (as in NFL) football.

Not to mention that the way a 3-4 defense disrupts tempo is different than a 4-3 defense, yet Madden does NOT represent the 3-4 correctly. So if I have the Ravens, Ngata is not as disruptive as he should be. He should be constantly occupying two blockers so Suggs and McClain can get through instead of coming up with ways to bastardize the 3-4 so it works in Madden.

These are not excuses. These are actual legit flaws in the game's execution of the real sport of football. They impact strategic and tactical decisions, both on and off the field (though I know you're anti-franchise mode), and need to be addressed. Do I play well in spite of issues like this? I do decently - I'm no pro tournament level player. Are there things I can improve? Sure. But tell me how my improvement on the sticks will make the game represent the 3-4 correctly? Or assign help to stop powerful d-lineman like a real team would, or CBs that actually play true coverage instead of using Madden shortcuts?

You're anti-terms like "psychic defender" and that's fine - except that's how the game bastardizes true tough coverage because it can not represent true anticipation (which impacts positioning and helps disrupt offensive tempo or can be exploited by the offense to jump start/continue rhythm and timing).

It's funny you mentioned the football pro series because it's far and away ahead of Madden in this regard. Players have more assignments, they are more aware of their assignments. Instincts and discipline MATTER (in fact, they are ratings in the FBPro series, INtelligence, and DIscipline) I don't see my MLB running from numbers to numbers when he's supposed to be playing middle zone (and this is a 95+ LB in skill ratings, so he's no scrub, he's rated like Mike Singletary + Derrick Brooks), and again this goes back to positioning.

You can stay "control him" - what about the other 10 guys that are doing the same thing?

[Big FN Deal]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

Let's get this straight, you want as close to an NFL experience as possible as long as it doesn't require any responsibility on the user's part to learn how to use the tools EA has provided - Say it ain't so.

The challenge that is the NFL challenge can't be found in a box. The CPU cannot deliver the illusion of a human opponent's decision making process taking your every move into account - never will. It takes a computer like Watson just to play chess that way, don't expect your PS3/360 processor to perform the same (and don't hold your breath either).

The NFL challenge comes from facing playing human opponents. Not just any human opponents, the best human opponents. Better players = NFL Challenge. There are no scrubs in the NFL. You want an NFL challenge? Limit your opponents to the top 1800 Madden players.

Later

This again. TNT, what you are referring to is not anything unique as NFL challenge, it's just competition. You keep trying to equate the fact that Madden currently provides User v User competition, with a NFL challenge. One area, even though there are others, that instantly debunks this whole notion is the penalty system.

The National Football League is defined by it's rules and the enforcement of those rules. Madden does not even represent many key rules and does not enforce others, so you can't credibly claim a NFL challenge exists in Madden when so many parameters that define the NFL challenge, like penalties, are cosmetic or nonexistent in Madden. Or will you suggest that Users should also officiate like in a pick up basketball game and that the tools to accomplish User officiating can be found in Madden with some practice?

C'mon TNT.

[Smoke6]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

TNT,

The top 1800 madden players (if thats what you're referring too) most of them cheat bro. I only learn how to try and defend that mess more than i do enjoying the experience that should go along with it.

Nothing is fun nor funny about people manipulating the game to their upmost advantage over players who clearly dont get down that way. They play so desperate and pathetic that you have to sit back and wonder why these guys are the REWARDED and not the guys who actually play FOOTBALL.

Players running out of bounds and back in to make Spec/Rocket catches and your defender stands their like "WTF, he was out of bounds", only to let the guy run off as if he caught the pass in stride. Thats not real!

How about the offense lining up faster than the defense after a no huddle? Crowd noise doesnt even play a factor like it USED TOO! Anyone remember back in the day how crowd noise played a role in the playcalling when on the field as WRs couldnt hear the play being called and they showed and displayed it? GONE!!!

I mean, c'mon TNT, you are playing both sides but you are getting into areas that are shady in terms of it being done in a video game.

You keep talking about these "TOOLS", please tell me what more can I do against someone who comes out in a strong close I, or snugs bunch flip or some crap like that and he just lobs streaks and crossing slants all game? When I go to audible to something that should work, he just calls the famous HB DELAY and eats 3-5yds or more!

[TNT713]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

KB, you made some very good points. But they excuse the user from fully using the tools EA has provided to simulate the NFL. Hence, every "what about this" example you produce to give any user a pass - is an excuse.


@BigFN, what's the NFL without the competition?

Every strategy ever devised was devised for the purpose of having a better chance to win. YES - every strategy is governed by the rules - but specifically to win. I contend that the competition aspect of the NFL experience is the most important central theme to football.

NFL players crave winning. If EA were to program every single rule perfectly - there would still be no simulation of the NFL experience without also having players that want to win and prepare (within the rules) to do so. When Madden players LACK THE WILL TO COMPETE, their NFL experience is non-existent.

@Smoke, you're assuming that cheaters can be top players. Not so. Cheaters aren't part of the top 1800 players. The best players don't need to cheat. Furthermore, they don't need to adjust much to beat people who try to cheat. By and large, cheaters prey upon the weakest tacticians AND those who are prone to the frustration that creates mistakes. The top 1800 players are neither cheats, weak tacticians, nor prone to frustration that cause errors.

Lastly @Smoke, the descriptions you mention of the Strong I Close formation and how it's typically used are nowhere near 'cheating.' It's just a tough formation to deal with using stock plays. Opponent's count on easy reads against stock plays with rudimentary pre-snap adjustments. You have to out think them by giving them the read they expect while hitting them with a tactic they don't.

Later

[baller7345]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

KB, you made some very good points. But they excuse the user from fully using the tools EA has provided to simulate the NFL. Hence, every "what about this" example you produce to give any user a pass - is an excuse.


@BigFN, what's the NFL without the competition?

Every strategy ever devised was devised for the purpose of having a better chance to win. YES - every strategy is governed by the rules - but specifically to win. I contend that the competition aspect of the NFL experience is the most important central theme to football.

NFL players crave winning. If EA were to program every single rule perfectly - there would still be no simulation of the NFL experience without also having players that want to win and prepare (within the rules) to do so. When Madden players LACK THE WILL TO COMPETE, their NFL experience is non-existent.

@Smoke, you're assuming that cheaters can be top players. Not so. Cheaters aren't part of the top 1800 players. The best players don't need to cheat. Furthermore, they don't need to adjust much to beat people who try to cheat. By and large, cheaters prey upon the weakest tacticians AND those who are prone to the frustration that creates mistakes. The top 1800 players are neither cheats, weak tacticians, nor prone to frustration that cause errors.

Lastly @Smoke, the descriptions you mention of the Strong I Close formation and how it's typically used are nowhere near 'cheating.' It's just a tough formation to deal with using stock plays. Opponent's count on easy reads against stock plays with rudimentary pre-snap adjustments. You have to out think them by giving them the read they expect while hitting them with a tactic they don't.

Later

You always seem to be under the delusion that the best players in the world are applying real world football tactics to win at the game. This is simply not the case. Many of the times the tactics employed by the best players are glitchy and have no basis in any football sim. Take for instance the Shake blitz. Pretty much everybody agrees its a glitch but many of the top players do use it on occassion. Watch this video and try to tell me that they are using football knowledge to play a game and not a bunch of exploits along with knowledge on what works within the game. The game should be more about football knowledge than Madden knowledge.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/UZvyV8Sjesk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Smoke6]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

@Smoke, you're assuming that cheaters can be top players. Not so. Cheaters aren't part of the top 1800 players. The best players don't need to cheat. Furthermore, they don't need to adjust much to beat people who try to cheat. By and large, cheaters prey upon the weakest tacticians AND those who are prone to the frustration that creates mistakes. The top 1800 players are neither cheats, weak tacticians, nor prone to frustration that cause errors.

Lastly @Smoke, the descriptions you mention of the Strong I Close formation and how it's typically used are nowhere near 'cheating.' It's just a tough formation to deal with using stock plays. Opponent's count on easy reads against stock plays with rudimentary pre-snap adjustments. You have to out think them by giving them the read they expect while hitting them with a tactic they don't.


Please prove otherwise, I know we may not know all the top players, but the top 100 on madden as of now on Ps3 and 360, 90% or more of them cheated there way to the top.

Now lets get this str8, what I call cheating as in Exploits on both sides of the ball, you say is not. Maybe because you feel these mythical tools EA provides are enough to deal with the situation.

But I still dont understand or know what are these 'tools' are you keep mentioning but you mention with no detail what-so-ever. If you are so well aquainted with madden and these "tools", then quit being so vague or trying to PLUG IN your site and help us out to understand a little bit more better here?

You sound like you have all the answers but never produce any at all with your "beat around the bush" replies to everything....

LATER!

[KBLover]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

KB, you made some very good points. But they excuse the user from fully using the tools EA has provided to simulate the NFL. Hence, every "what about this" example you produce to give any user a pass - is an excuse.

Really? So what tool exists to create true 3-4 defense execution?

Seriously. Is there a way to make the D-Line occupy two blockers in pass rushing AT THE SAME TIME? Is there a way to use true 3-4 concepts? Coming up with "creative blitz packages" simply gets around the fact that my big 95 STR NT is unable to push a gap and require both the G and C to get half of him to block him. Or Ngata unable to collapse both the T and G so that Suggs has free run. If I blitz both McClain and Suggs - one of them might get free. In reality BOTH should get free because Ngata requires a double team, Cody requires a double team, so both LBs should shoot through, forking the personal protector of the QB.

So what user tools will create that actual, real life execution of a 3-4 overload blitz from a base package? Not the "madden version" of it, the real NFL Baltimore Ravens execution.

What tool creates true coverage, not just Madden shortcuts to "simulate" (a word I use loosely) actual anticipation and driving on the ball delivery point instead of running the route ahead of the receiver?

Is there a way to make the non-user controlled players stay in their zones? I can not control all the players myself to keep them in the zone because the minute I switch to put someone else back in their zone, the other guy I left from is back to abandoning his assignment.

What tool is there to put the real velocity on passes? I throw hard passes with the L-Stick and they are still too slow. Strong-armed QBs should be throwing absolute missiles. Instead, there's very little difference between me throwing a max velocity pass deep with Alex Smith or 97 THP rated Josh Freeman. The only difference is the distance on the pass.

What tool is there to create the true risk/reward/timing differences between jumping to defend passes? Oh, there is isn't one - there's no skill. Just hit triangle and watch the defender jump to max height instantly.

I want the real game on my console. I want real differences in timing and decisions. Not a "madden-ized" version.

I'm very passionate about football and as my knowledge of the game continues to expand, the more I see Madden failing to really represent the game and more I have to use these Madden bastardizations of the real game, and as a die-hard fan of the 3-4 (and the fact Ravens, Pitt, and 49ers use it to top effectiveness), that REALLY gets on my nerves. That and LB play in general is...ugh.

You call it excuses - I call it Madden needing to improve and truly represent the NFL on the field.