There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

[Smoke6]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

You always seem to be under the delusion that the best players in the world are applying real world football tactics to win at the game. This is simply not the case. Many of the times the tactics employed by the best players are glitchy and have no basis in any football sim. Take for instance the Shake blitz. Pretty much everybody agrees its a glitch but many of the top players do use it on occassion. Watch this video and try to tell me that they are using football knowledge to play a game and not a bunch of exploits along with knowledge on what works within the game. The game should be more about football knowledge than Madden knowledge.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/UZvyV8Sjesk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Couldnt even watch it and let alone listen to this garbage bro after the 1st 2 series. Is that even legal to run out of the endzone with the ball after a kickoff and run right back into the back of the endzone as if you kneeled the ball or something?

But just look at the way these guys set up and play there defense, of course you're gonna run for big gains up the gut like that when you have all DBs in the game and 1-3 D linemen spread out like that.

Its sickening and yet, these are the TOP GUYS on everyones leader boards on madden and yet, here TNT is making excuses for gameplay like this! SMH

[TNT713]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

KB, these are great points to justify that there's much you cannot do in Madden. The tools aren't ready. But using that as a justification not to get full use out of the tools that are ready also make it an excuse.

It's a philosophical debate... Neither of us is right or wrong. We just have different perspectives.

While you see the things you cannot do as a barrier between realistic NFL simulation - I see those barriers as an excuse not to simulate the NFL as realistically as possible within the framework of the game.

Later

[Smoke6]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

KB, these are great points to justify that there's much you cannot do in Madden. The tools aren't ready. But using that as a justification not to get full use out of the tools that are ready also make it an excuse.

It's a philosophical debate... Neither of us is right or wrong. We just have different perspectives.

While you see the things you cannot do as a barrier between realistic NFL simulation - I see those barriers as an excuse not to simulate the NFL as realistically as possible within the framework of the game.

Later

I'm done!

I dont think I can ever read another post form you again TNT, we have our ups and downs and agreements and disagreements, but this post right here...the one right here^^^ Just boggled my mind bro.

Im sure you are sincere in what you say and believe, but this also tells me YOU HAVE NO CLUE WHAT IT SI YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT!!!

PEACE!

[KBLover]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

While you see the things you cannot do as a barrier between realistic NFL simulation - I see those barriers as an excuse not to simulate the NFL as realistically as possible within the framework of the game.

What I see is a framework of a game that is simply too limited and incorrect even with some basic football concepts (it can't even line up the LBs correctly - see Senator Palmer thread about the 4-3 Over/Under and the placement of the Will - there's nothing philosophical about lining up wrong).

But I'm starting to think EA also agrees with the "simplicity is best" mantra and that's why the tools haven't progressed very much at all - because it then becomes "too complex".

[Big FN Deal]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

KB, you made some very good points. But they excuse the user from fully using the tools EA has provided to simulate the NFL. Hence, every "what about this" example you produce to give any user a pass - is an excuse.


@BigFN, what's the NFL without the competition?

Every strategy ever devised was devised for the purpose of having a better chance to win. YES - every strategy is governed by the rules - but specifically to win. I contend that the competition aspect of the NFL experience is the most important central theme to football.

NFL players crave winning. If EA were to program every single rule perfectly - there would still be no simulation of the NFL experience without also having players that want to win and prepare (within the rules) to do so. When Madden players LACK THE WILL TO COMPETE, their NFL experience is non-existent.

@Smoke, you're assuming that cheaters can be top players. Not so. Cheaters aren't part of the top 1800 players. The best players don't need to cheat. Furthermore, they don't need to adjust much to beat people who try to cheat. By and large, cheaters prey upon the weakest tacticians AND those who are prone to the frustration that creates mistakes. The top 1800 players are neither cheats, weak tacticians, nor prone to frustration that cause errors.

Lastly @Smoke, the descriptions you mention of the Strong I Close formation and how it's typically used are nowhere near 'cheating.' It's just a tough formation to deal with using stock plays. Opponent's count on easy reads against stock plays with rudimentary pre-snap adjustments. You have to out think them by giving them the read they expect while hitting them with a tactic they don't.

Later

There can be no "within the rules" without the rules being represented and enforced. You can't simulate the NFL challenge without competition and you can't simulate NFL competition without representing the rules that govern it. The two are interdependent in relation to simulating the NFL challenge so you can't reasonably suggest that one is more important than the other.

Providing the will to win, is the User's responsibility but representing NFL rules and enforcement, is solely on EA. Every year millions of User provide their requirement for simulating the NFL challenge but it won't be achieved until EA provides theirs.

[TNT713]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

Please prove otherwise, I know we may not know all the top players, but the top 100 on madden as of now on Ps3 and 360, 90% or more of them cheated there way to the top.

Now lets get this str8, what I call cheating as in Exploits on both sides of the ball, you say is not. Maybe because you feel these mythical tools EA provides are enough to deal with the situation.

But I still dont understand or know what are these 'tools' are you keep mentioning but you mention with no detail what-so-ever. If you are so well aquainted with madden and these "tools", then quit being so vague or trying to PLUG IN your site and help us out to understand a little bit more better here?

You sound like you have all the answers but never produce any at all with your "beat around the bush" replies to everything....

LATER!

Smoke,

First, you're looking in the wrong places for the best players. PS3 and 360 leaderboards are littered with clowns with a few top-notch players sprinkled in. Bum-hunters with a gimmick rookies aren't ready to counter can easily rack up hundreds of wins against sub-par challengers and move up the leaderboards. Also, historically people have tried to game the ranking system to move up the leaderboards.

A top-notch Madden player isn't avoiding top-notch competition - so their records aren't nearly as tidy - but their skills cannot be denied.

Regarding the 'tools' - there are so many of them. Formations are one tool we can use to create mismatches, an expectation of run/pass, or spacing. Hot-Routes make it easy to hand-craft your blocking, routes, and progression to fit your unique understanding of the game. Defensive Playmaker allows you to assign any player on the field any of the assignments. Individual coverage audibles, tapping your hip, etc... All tools at your disposal to help us simulate the NFL.

My site is called MaddenUniversity because it's not the typical 2+2=4 type of site. We don't spoon feed people the usage of the tools (maybe you should actually visit one day and see it for yourself). It merely helps them become more aware of how to use them - and leaves them to create their own brand of football. There are no 'do it like this' site, we are a 'here's what you need to know' site.

Not just school - University. And if you have a problem with a person running a Madden website specifically for helping others better enjoy their Madden experience for no charge for 9 years out of his own pocket - God help you. I think it's a far better thing than constantly trying to sour someone's experience.

You always seem to be under the delusion that the best players in the world are applying real world football tactics to win at the game. This is simply not the case. Many of the times the tactics employed by the best players are glitchy and have no basis in any football sim. Take for instance the Shake blitz. Pretty much everybody agrees its a glitch but many of the top players do use it on occassion. Watch this video and try to tell me that they are using football knowledge to play a game and not a bunch of exploits along with knowledge on what works within the game. The game should be more about football knowledge than Madden knowledge.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/UZvyV8Sjesk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

First, I don't want you to think I'm avoiding your concerns, but I don't have time to watch the video today. I'm in the middle of packing/shipping to move from Detroit to LA on Monday. Then I'm gearing up to head out to CD on the 14th. It may be a while before I can watch and address your concerns.

Raincheck til I get more settled.

Later

[Smoke6]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

Yall should just give me and Big'F a trip down there to EA with these guys, I wouldnt mind it and my feedback would be constructive.

This man speaks the truth, whatever these tools TNT keeps eluding too that EA has given us, he doesnt seem to know them either, just talking out of his cheeks.

Like I said before, there should a ROUND TABLE of some sorts held more often than they're doing now. They need to start focusing on the hardcore, there are multiple skill levels thats been present in madden for years, there's no need to make the OVERALL PRODUCT "simple" in terms of gameplay across the board!

If you're gonna have Pro, All-Pro, and All Madden gameplay modes, then there has to be something special to differentiate all 3 modes from one another besides the CPU cheating!

[Smoke6]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

Smoke,

First, you're looking in the wrong places for the best players. PS3 and 360 leaderboards are littered with clowns with a few top-notch players sprinkled in. Bum-hunters with a gimmick rookies aren't ready to counter can easily rack up hundreds of wins against sub-par challengers and move up the leaderboards. Also, historically people have tried to game the ranking system to move up the leaderboards.

A top-notch Madden player isn't avoiding top-notch competition - so their records aren't nearly as tidy - but their skills cannot be denied.

Regarding the 'tools' - there are so many of them. Formations are one tool we can use to create mismatches, an expectation of run/pass, or spacing. Hot-Routes make it easy to hand-craft your blocking, routes, and progression to fit your unique understanding of the game. Defensive Playmaker allows you to assign any player on the field any of the assignments. Individual coverage audibles, tapping your hip, etc... All tools at your disposal to help us simulate the NFL.

My site is called MaddenUniversity because it's not the typical 2+2=4 type of site. We don't spoon feed people the usage of the tools (maybe you should actually visit one day and see it for yourself). It merely helps them become more aware of how to use them - and leaves them to create their own brand of football. There are no 'do it like this' site, we are a 'here's what you need to know' site.

Not just school - University. And if you have a problem with a person running a Madden website specifically for helping others better enjoy their Madden experience for no charge for 9 years out of his own pocket - God help you. I think it's a far better thing than constantly trying to sour someone's experience.



First, I don't want you to think I'm avoiding your concerns, but I don't have time to watch the video today. I'm in the middle of packing/shipping to move from Detroit to LA on Monday. Then I'm gearing up to head out to CD on the 14th. It may be a while before I can watch and address your concerns.

Raincheck til I get more settled.

Later

My points exactly!

But if you checked, you'd see that I am a member on your site and have been for a while. I never looked at "Formations" as a "tool" in the sense of how you lay down your foundations of an argument against our claims of how this game is uniquely flawed. Formations are a "fundamental" part of the game in REAL LIFE and in the game.

Creating mismatches in the game can cause to some game breaking type stuff as I pointed out with J. Finely. I shouldnt have to use one of my "tools" (some top 5 team out of all 32) to compete with this non sense.

Its supposed to be ANY GIVEN SUNDAY out there on the field even when im up against a top tier player. But its so lopsided on how advantageous these guys play that its not even funny. But there is another tool out there for me to use... Trying to avoid these guys in the first place!

[TNT713]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

My points exactly!

But if you checked, you'd see that I am a member on your site and have been for a while. I never looked at "Formations" as a "tool" in the sense of how you lay down your foundations of an argument against our claims of how this game is uniquely flawed. Formations are a "fundamental" part of the game in REAL LIFE and in the game.

Creating mismatches in the game can cause to some game breaking type stuff as I pointed out with J. Finely. I shouldnt have to use one of my "tools" (some top 5 team out of all 32) to compete with this non sense.

Its supposed to be ANY GIVEN SUNDAY out there on the field even when im up against a top tier player. But its so lopsided on how advantageous these guys play that its not even funny. But there is another tool out there for me to use... Trying to avoid these guys in the first place!

Formations are a fundamental TOOL used by real teams and player... Like any tool, formations have their best uses. For example, I-Form is better to block inside blitzes than Singleback and Trips are better to get the defense to show it's coverage than I-Form. But it's just one of many tools we can use to simulate the NFL. There's dozens of tools including but not limited to stick mechanics, pre-snap adjustments, etc...

Although we have access to the same tools, not everyone with a paint brush and a canvas is an artist. Not everyone with a hammer and nails is a carpenter. Some people don't actually build anything with the tools they have nor make anything creative and artistic.

ANY GIVEN SUNDAY relates to real life football because two teams work hard to prepare and square off on the field. Pit the worst NFL team against the best high school team and the NFL teams ALWAYS wins. The difference - NFL teams would be better experienced, better skilled, and better prepared. In Madden pro preparation meets high school preparation with the expected result.

Later

[Smoke6]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

Although we have access to the same tools, not everyone with a paint brush and a canvas is an artist. Not everyone with a hammer and nails is a carpenter. Some people don't actually build anything with the tools they have nor make anything creative and artistic.

ANY GIVEN SUNDAY relates to real life football because two teams work hard to prepare and square off on the field. Pit the worst NFL team against the best high school team and the NFL teams ALWAYS wins. The difference - NFL teams would be better experienced, better skilled, and better prepared. In Madden pro preparation meets high school preparation with the expected result.

Are you serious???

Man, this whole time and EVERYTIME you post, you make it seem like there was something special "TOOL WISE" we didnt know about. SMFH at this right here, im gonna take a chill pill and get ready for work bruh, when you not pluggin your site and can come with something useful as you been eluding to this mess we already knew about, then holla. Other than that man, you really dont have too much to offer!

Got me sitting here thinking and running thru your site looking for "the lost city of strategies and tools" only to find out my true feelings about your posts are what I expected them to be... NOTHING!

[TNT713]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

Are you serious???

Man, this whole time and EVERYTIME you post, you make it seem like there was something special "TOOL WISE" we didnt know about. SMFH at this right here, im gonna take a chill pill and get ready for work bruh, when you not pluggin your site and can come with something useful as you been eluding to this mess we already knew about, then holla. Other than that man, you really dont have too much to offer!

Got me sitting here thinking and running thru your site looking for "the lost city of strategies and tools" only to find out my true feelings about your posts are what I expected them to be... NOTHING!

Um... I wasn't aware I needed to introduce some super secret tools that people didn't already know existed. I'm interested in helping people get the most out of the tools that are already in the game

Take pass interface, for example. There's a misconception than you can't drop passes behind a 'superman LB' using the current interface. That misconception comes from the perception that EA hasn't created ample tools. While none of them are mysterious and secret, but they aren't presented with the means to fully APPLY these tools. Coupled with the number of players who never bother to read the manual - there are hundreds of people who might not find the content of my posts as useless and devoid of value as you seem to find them.

Lastly, I typically coach individuals who PM me with the specifics they ask for - not so much in an open arena where people seem to be more interested in taking a shot at me than learning something.

Got a specific question about better using the tools - find my PM box.

Later

[Big FN Deal]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

Yall should just give me and Big'F a trip down there to EA with these guys, I wouldnt mind it and my feedback would be constructive.

This man speaks the truth, whatever these tools TNT keeps eluding too that EA has given us, he doesnt seem to know them either, just talking out of his cheeks.

Like I said before, there should a ROUND TABLE of some sorts held more often than they're doing now. They need to start focusing on the hardcore, there are multiple skill levels thats been present in madden for years, there's no need to make the OVERALL PRODUCT "simple" in terms of gameplay across the board!

If you're gonna have Pro, All-Pro, and All Madden gameplay modes, then there has to be something special to differentiate all 3 modes from one another besides the CPU cheating!

LMAO!

I can't speak for you Smoke but I personally don't know how much good I would be in Florida. I would just be repeating the same stuff I state on here. I honestly believe the people that go to CD "keep it real" but ain't much they can do but speak their peace.

That said, I sure would like a shot at the food spread I think I read about for CD though. lol

[Aolian_Am]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

KBlover, Smoke, do you guys play on ps3? if you do i would like to play you guys, Bigfndeal i would ask you, but i'm pretty sure i read that you play on x box.

i'm the type of person that gives madden more credit than you guys, a lot of the gripes i see on here i tend to disagree with. there are a lot of tools at your disposal, i think that most people don't use them, or don't do it often enough, to really see what this game has to offer.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

KBlover, Smoke, do you guys play on ps3? if you do i would like to play you guys, Bigfndeal i would ask you, but i'm pretty sure i read that you play on x box.

i'm the type of person that gives madden more credit than you guys, a lot of the gripes i see on here i tend to disagree with. there are a lot of tools at your disposal, i think that most people don't use them, or don't do it often enough, to really see what this game has to offer.

I playED on xbox but I don't play Madden at all now. lol

I am just preparing myself for the possibility of M13 not finally being "that game" for me, that I can enjoy the whole year.

I can respect anybody that can find enjoyment in M12 and it's not a terrible game in general, is just a bad NFL simulation game, imo.

That said, just some key, what I believe to be doable, changes and I would be playing Madden right now instead of on this forum. To somewhat be on topic, will some CD person please see if my M13 checklist is taken care of and blink once for yes and twice for no.

put the same effort into minimizing warping/teleporting and fixing man defense as they did for suction and zone defense this year, address pass blocking like they did run blocking in M10, make offline/online Franchise one mode like Dynasty in NCAA, improve commentary, adjust pass trajectory, allow nearby receivers to trigger pass defense animations to prevent interceptions and add a halftime/around the league highlight show in M13, I might not buy any other game until Aug 2013. Also, three of those things I named, have all but been confirmed already for M13.

[Smoke6]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

KBlover, Smoke, do you guys play on ps3? if you do i would like to play you guys, Bigfndeal i would ask you, but i'm pretty sure i read that you play on x box.

i'm the type of person that gives madden more credit than you guys, a lot of the gripes i see on here i tend to disagree with. there are a lot of tools at your disposal, i think that most people don't use them, or don't do it often enough, to really see what this game has to offer.

Shoot me a psn invite, send me a PM with your name and ill send you one back with mine. Im also in the OS community so if you are involved in that then just hit me up!

Because I gripe doesnt mean I dont use or dont know how to use the tools that are provided for me. Trust and believe that, but im down during the day!