There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

[KBLover]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

i'm the type of person that gives madden more credit than you guys, a lot of the gripes i see on here i tend to disagree with. there are a lot of tools at your disposal, i think that most people don't use them, or don't do it often enough, to really see what this game has to offer.

Show me how to force double-team pass blocking when pass rushing when using the 3-4.

I'd like to know those tools so I can run the Ravens defense like the REAL Ravens defense.

[caballero]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

Kill their JMP ratings.

That seems to be how the roster editing folks seem to be doing it.

Only defenders that should likely have good JMP ratings are probably DBs. Short of that, removing the jumping-swat animation is not a bad idea, or reserve it for the few LBs who do have a good vertical and also have above average coverage ratings.

Then again, I'm totally against any slowing down of LB reactions. They are slow enough, imo.

Two highest recorded Vertical Jumps are by a safety, namely Gerald Sensabaugh, at 46" (man, that's almost 4 feet!), and an OLB, Cameron Wake, at 45.5".
It's not how high they (LB's) jump, it's how superhuman they react, they're too quickly at their max height...

But the linebackers' jump ability has to be modified as well. As KB suggested, these guys seem to be getting vertical without any momentum considered. And it happens so fast that it just doesn't look very believable to be honest.

he barely is able to get off the ground. In Madden, the linebackers are instantaneously jumping at max vert with two hands at the ready. That is a HUGE HUGE difference from a linebacker who gets in a small hop with one hand in the process of extension as the ball goes over his head.

++

The problem with madden is that the defense runs like robots. Your joystick becomes a virtual magnet. This is why punt returns are so ineffective.

You nailed it, putting into words what our eyes were seeing!

by trying their best to avoid perceived "perfection", EA has prevented Madden from being better.

my new sig!

[N51_rob]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

Another thing, I would like to see improved. Procedural Awareness. It isn't what it was suppose to be. In this video, you can't the other receiver, but there is a receiver that the CB is turning to run with, as he is in cover three. As he turns to run, a ball is thrown to the TE in the seam. The DB who has the back of his head, facing the QB turns and breaks towards the thrown ball, that he can't see. This NEEDS to be adjusted/tuned/fixed/tweaked going forward.

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[shadia147]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

Guys, I hate to take the minority view here, but I tend to agree with Smoke if I read his posts correctly.
I only play CPU vs CPU, so maybe my argument is moot in some eyes.
But I "Watch" all 16 games per week. I don't touch anything once the game starts.
But I don't see much of what you guys are claiming. Oh sure, here and there, I might see a morph, or a super DB. Maybe once a game.
But after finally spending three months trying to get my sliders and settings right ( It DID take time), I am seeing separation between DBs and WRs. I get long post passes, sideline passes, curl ins, fade outs, missed coverages, medium, long and short range. I'm pretty happy with what I'm seeing in my passing game, especially since the very things that are being mentioned in this post are precisely the things I was having trouble ironing out of the game.

My point is, that it wasnt until I learned about the controller trick on kickoff, and tinkered with MY OWN Sliders, that the issues mentioned were resolved to my satisfaction. I think that a lot of you are using sliders posted on this site, and seeing these things occur. Not to be rude, but have you considered that maybe some of the "Experts" on this site might not be the "experts" they claim to be? Maybe, just maybe, the problems lie in trusting people that claim to know everything just because they sayso...
Here's my advise... Do your own sliders. If you see super linebackers or DBs, figure out on your own exactly what the reason is behind it. Is it the Pass Reaction? The Speed Threshold? The QBA? or maybe even the controller setting at kickoff. Trust me, and I have no reason to deceive you, the answer DOES lie somewhere in the "Tools" in the settings somewhere. Because I was seeing the same things. It took me three months to figure out. And the answer didnt come from certain "experts" on this site, and it didnt happen by magic.
It happened because I went into the workings of this game and tinkered, tinkered and tinkered some more until I got the results I wanted. Thus I KNOW that the answers DO lie within the tools given you. I have proof in my games themselves.
Is it perfect? Of course not. But the best tool you have is yourself. Try using THAT instead of relying on OS posters. I know you'll find your answers.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

That video is yet another example of everything that was done in Madden in the past having the caveat of "keeping it fun" being more important than "keeping it real". Every defender becoming instantly aware of the ball being thrown is seems to be Tiburon's way of improving the defense.

It's hard to give constructive criticism when there is no feedback from the creator of what's being critiqued but I will still try. The last in depth developer interaction about Madden with Ian and crew revealed the POV that fun had to trump realism in Madden. So in order to counter a "fun" designed offense, developers have to utilize stuff like psychic defenders and warping to keep defense "fun" too.

I don't understand why the real NFL hasn't been used as a blueprint for how Madden can realistically and enjoyably regulate gameplay. It's all a domino effect, so if you make one thing realistic, include it's realistic counterpart, instead of creating one "fun"/unrealistic thing and including another to counter it. They seem to allocate resources to things trying to fix Madden every year, that end up further breaking the football in it.

I am no programmer but it seems that if they tuned the game so all positions and players are regulated by REALISTIC ratings, penalties and physics, creating all those unrealistic "fixes" would not be necessary.

For example, if the pass rush caused the QB to generally need to stay in the pocket, get rid of the ball quickly and make presnap reads, the defense wouldn't need to be given a sixth sense to keep scores low. If offensive players actually had to slow down to make cuts, defenders wouldn't need warp into position to make plays or mimic every twitch the offensive player makes for pursuit. If catches/interceptions required actually gaining possession of the ball, a ratings "dice roll" wouldn't be needed to predetermine what happens, etc.

It is a complete waste of resources to continue to invest in attempting to create "fun" unrealistic gameplay in a simulation. There is no such thing, one cancels out the other, so they have to choose, imo.

[KBLover]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

Is it perfect? Of course not. But the best tool you have is yourself. Try using THAT instead of relying on OS posters. I know you'll find your answers.

If you've found the tool/setting to force consistent double-team pass blocking in the 3-4, and double-team pass blocking where appropriate or where the defense forces it in general, I'm ALL ears. 100% totally. Same for assigning help when I see one defender really having a day against my squad. In the real game - teams dedicate help in that situation. I can assign a TE to stay in and block, but no guarantee he'd pick up the DE. Or I can't assign the LG to help the LT and then keep the HB in to block the A-gap.

Also, part of the problem with messing with reaction is that, at least imo, that the LBs start to react too stupidly. So if I turn it down to make them "delayed" in jumping for the ball, they get "delayed" running with an average TE or getting into their zones, or closing on targeted receivers over the middle.

It also impacts the DBs. Sans the morphing/clipping (that sometimes goes in my favor when the ball goes through the CPU defender's hand...which is like WTF) and DBs that are incapable of anticipation so they have to run the route ahead of the receiver instead of driving to the would-be delivery point of the ball, I really don't have a lot of qualms about how DBs play, even on high pass reaction. So if I turn reaction down to gimp the LBs - the DBs play worse, creating problems there.

And of course, the LBs are the ones that are abandoning their zones too much. I saw my MLB, one of the best LBs in the league, assigned to a hook zone, but guess where he was...on the SIDELINE like he was in a buzz zone. Uh...what? No surprise the CPU QB saw it and hit his HB on an angle route right where the MLB should have been for at least the tackle.

I shouldn't have to use tools to make a top-tier, elite AWR MLB in a middle hook zone...stay in the freaking middle of the field...

[shadia147]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

Let me answer you this way.. Again I point out that I'm playing CPU vs CPU. So I don't call plays.
But, Let's just say in watching CPU vs CPU, I see a little bit of everything.
I see double-teams occasionally. They DO happen, not every time, but I DO see them happen. I see single coverages, double teams.And I've seen blown coverages entirely. I see balls juggled by WRs and DBs. I see balls bounce off the DB and caught for a Hail Mary...
That tells me that somewhere in the system, the possibilities are there. Perhaps you're correct that in line play some AI needs improving. Like I said, its not perfect. But one thing I noticed since I found my settings, was the complaint was that DT's were getting more sacks than DEs. In my last full week of games, I watched that carefully. And I noticed that trend had reversed itself. My DEs were circling more from the outside.
Again, it's not 100% perfect. But it's proof that your settings can have an impact on such things.
But again, I beleive that a lot of the problems come from guys believing that just because something is posted on OS, then it must be Gospel. And 99% of these guys use the same settings as they see posted. I'm suggesting that they need to do their own experimenting. I takes a lot of work. If they see something like super DBs or LBs, or can't complete long passes, those things can be addressed with settings MOST OF THE TIME! Not always, but MOST OF THETIME.

[shadia147]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

I swear KB, Granted I'm not as versed in the finer aspects of football as you appear to be. But I don't see in the games I watch on my system the same problems as you mention. At least not in the same quantity. As I said, I do see things occasionally. It happens. I chalk it up to lack of AI technology in the system.
But as a casual football observer, and having spent time deliberately rooting out many of the glitches you mention. I have to say that maybe 90% of what I was seeing when I first opened the box on this game, I've eliminated by tinkering with settings. I must point out, that in CPU games only, there's a huge difference between starting games with controller in the middle (Spectator Mode) and starting with controller assigned to one team or another. So that one trick probably accounts for 90% of my findings.But that doesnt apply to actually "Playing" the game online or offline.
But honestly, while I Do see the things you mention, I also see times when those things do not occur for long periods of time.
And I see a huge difference between how the game played out -of-the-box, and with posted settings, and from how it plays now using my own settings. Before I stumbled on my settings, I would have been with the majority on this topic.
My assumption is that I might be able to eliminate more gaffes if I tinkered even more. But at some point I just have to accept the game for being what it is. You're never going to get perfection. But you CAN use "Tools" to at least move in that direction.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

I swear KB, Granted I'm not as versed in the finer aspects of football as you appear to be. But I don't see in the games I watch on my system the same problems as you mention. At least not in the same quantity. As I said, I do see things occasionally. It happens. I chalk it up to lack of AI technology in the system.
But as a casual football observer, and having spent time deliberately rooting out many of the glitches you mention. I have to say that maybe 90% of what I was seeing when I first opened the box on this game, I've eliminated by tinkering with settings. I must point out, that in CPU games only, there's a huge difference between starting games with controller in the middle (Spectator Mode) and starting with controller assigned to one team or another. So that one trick probably accounts for 90% of my findings.But that doesnt apply to actually "Playing" the game online or offline.
But honestly, while I Do see the things you mention, I also see times when those things do not occur for long periods of time.
And I see a huge difference between how the game played out -of-the-box, and with posted settings, and from how it plays now using my own settings. Before I stumbled on my settings, I would have been with the majority on this topic.
My assumption is that I might be able to eliminate more gaffes if I tinkered even more. But at some point I just have to accept the game for being what it is. You're never going to get perfection. But you CAN use "Tools" to at least move in that direction.

I don't know why people even mention "perfection" when no reasonable gamer expects that. However, the fact that so many people, like yourself, claim that more realistic gameplay is possible using the current "tools" in Madden, exacerbates the issue of EA not providing that experience in a factory setting.

These "tools" you refer to are not currently available for online Franchises and as you alluded to, are far too diverse among the community. The ideal thing would be for Madden developers to utilize these same tools with optimal effectiveness at Tiburon and provide gamers with a Simulation setting, tuned for as authentic a NFL gameplay as possible.

[KBLover]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

I swear KB, Granted I'm not as versed in the finer aspects of football as you appear to be. But I don't see in the games I watch on my system the same problems as you mention. At least not in the same quantity. As I said, I do see things occasionally. It happens. I chalk it up to lack of AI technology in the system.
But as a casual football observer, and having spent time deliberately rooting out many of the glitches you mention. I have to say that maybe 90% of what I was seeing when I first opened the box on this game, I've eliminated by tinkering with settings. I must point out, that in CPU games only, there's a huge difference between starting games with controller in the middle (Spectator Mode) and starting with controller assigned to one team or another. So that one trick probably accounts for 90% of my findings.But that doesnt apply to actually "Playing" the game online or offline.
But honestly, while I Do see the things you mention, I also see times when those things do not occur for long periods of time.
And I see a huge difference between how the game played out -of-the-box, and with posted settings, and from how it plays now using my own settings. Before I stumbled on my settings, I would have been with the majority on this topic.
My assumption is that I might be able to eliminate more gaffes if I tinkered even more. But at some point I just have to accept the game for being what it is. You're never going to get perfection. But you CAN use "Tools" to at least move in that direction.

I have been doing plenty of tinkering. I don't have the DT problem of too many sacks (if anything, I've gone too far the other way). My DEs and OLBs have the majority of my sacks. I don't complain of psychic DBs (just a lack of true coverage fundamentals programmed in the game) and the "super" LBs is more the lack of having to "load up" for those max height jumps - plus being able to react with foreknowledge of where the ball is going because the AI is input reading), and that's the only problem I have with LBs (other than abandoning zones). I LOVE how they play the run now with the higher reaction and tinkering with priorities. Heck, I went to 100 fatigue and rebalanced my own sliders because I refuse to edit players - and that led to seeing new things. So, I'm more than willing to tinker.

The game plays far different out of the box. I've tweaked CPU play calling, sim stats make a little more sense. But I can only do so much - like a modder in any game...some things need to be fixed with the actual code/engine.

Yes, you can do a lot with the tinkering. And - like I said, if you have settings that allows/forces double-team blocking - I'm all ears. You say you see it a lot on pass blocking? What are your settings? Are you on all-Madden or all-Pro level sliders (I'll use either so I don't care)?

My mind is open - I WANT to learn, and honestly, I WANT to be wrong. So show me. What is it that you've done to accomplish it. Even in a CPU/CPU game - something can be gleaned for application elsewhere. Sliders? Priorities? Certain personnel types/skill sets? Roles? DPP/Traits? Anything.

And yes, I am trying to learn the finer points of football - the true make-up and breakdown of schemes, assignments, techniques, position groupings, and proper adjustments/responses to various developments on the field. I saw a video TNT posted of Webb anticipating Andre Johnson's route. THAT is what I want in the game. He didn't run Andre's route - he read a key, and because of his style of DB play, aggressively attacked where he thought the ball was coming.

So, yes, I want to see more of the finer points of football. I want ratings to represent it and gameplay to allow it, and I want the side effects gone. High pass reaction leads to anticipation-like behavior (faster response to reading your input) but it has a few side effects. The 3-4 is largely flawed because the DLine doesn't have the "3-4 mentality" of attacking gaps constantly. It's not that the OL stops them, it's that they attack the OLmen and not the space between them. It's 4-3 concepts built on 3-4 set...no that's wrong.

If it seems like I'm nitpicky and demanding - it's because I want the game to improve and breakthrough to the next level, bringing even more realism and strategic choices to the game. It because I not only want to see, say, the Ravens play defense like the REAL Ravens - I also want the challenge of calling a game that let's them shine...or I get punished, realistically, if I'm not on my game...or my players are having a down day...which forces me to make other decisions.

That's what I want from Madden. The forest and the trees - all painted to a higher degree of detail.

[Smoke6]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

The thing is KB, that know one will show you!

They dont even know themselves as they're on CPU vs CPU but when playing against a human opponent all thats out the window. What I am getting at in this regard is the "manipulation" of players on the field undoing the 'Double Teams' in exploitful ways with formations that would make you triple take on replays wondering how 1 DT broke thru 5-6 man O-line 3 out 4 downs.

Yet, I dont see no double teams or anyone engaging this lone defender.

I play alot of online and online franchise, and it pains me to see my defender release from being jammed up at the LOS, have that 2-3 step on the defender who is hunched over leaning and momentum carrying him the opposite and only to see him miraculously recover and make a pick or break up the play.

I see far to often "recovery speed" go into effect on a clear "mis-read" by the defender and the Ai just takes over from there and the rest is history.

I dont like seeing defenders taken for a ride only to break off there coverage the moment I tap the button to an intended receiver that is clearly out of their line of sight and they are clearly unaware of the play that happened away from them. DO YOU HAVE AN EXPLANATION FOR THIS?

I dont see traction in this game to the point where you can call a Play Action play after successfully running the ball. When I hike the ball I see defenders bite, but they never lose ground when trying to recover and make a play.

Anyone remember that SF v Cowboys game earlier this season? The last play of the game sums it up nicely. In madden, one of those all out blitzing defenders would have made a play on that almost guaranteed!

The complaining and bickering is done, its just results we are wanting from almost 7 yrs over due. Im all for fixes and adjustments, you show me and im willing to give it a shot. Like others have said, it shouldnt have to take the community to tinker to get results that should have been like that out of the box!

[PacMan3000]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

Don't know if it's been mentioned or not, but has anyone tried editing all the linebackers' JUMP ratings down to 5 or even 0 in your franchise mode?

I'm curious to know if that's a way around the problem of the LB's jumping up all the time to swat down passes over the middle?

[Broncos86]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

Don't know if it's been mentioned or not, but has anyone tried editing all the linebackers' JUMP ratings down to 5 or even 0 in your franchise mode?

I'm curious to know if that's a way around the problem of the LB's jumping up all the time to swat down passes over the middle?

The short answer is yes. It basically makes linebackers oblivious to passes over the middle.

[RGiles36]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

The short answer is yes. It basically makes linebackers oblivious to passes over the middle.

Which (for me) begs the question is the trajectory really the main issue? Or is it a mere buzzword that people have leeched on to as a solution to LBs batting down passes left and right?

If Tiburon was to address the LB's lightning-quick reactions + insta-max-vert-leaps + add a vision map for all defenders, would we still be talking about the pass trajectory?

I'm not saying the trajectory is not an issue. I just wonder if we're putting all our eggs in the wrong basket when we say THAT's the issue w/ the passing game.

I gave 2K5 a test run recently (albeit briefly) and I can't say that I noticed a huge discrepancy in the arch of the passes compared to Madden.

[KBLover]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

If Tiburon was to address the LB's lightning-quick reactions + insta-max-vert-leaps + add a vision map for all defenders, would we still be talking about the pass trajectory?

I agree - that play where Spikes couldn't tip a pass because he was off balance and his momentum was going in the wrong direction is one that in Madden, would have been tipped. This follows along with what you mentioned above.

Trajectory, velocity of passes needs work, but that whole locomotion/momentum/insta-jump is also a problem too.