There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

[RGiles36]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

velocity of passes needs work

Velocity is interesting. Prior to M10, I believe the devs and fans felt the velocity on the passes was way too high. In the interest of striving for realism w/ M10, I recall a blog that mentioned they were tuning velocity. Additionally, I think it was tweaked so that it varies between passers: QBs with high THP will get the ball downfield faster and vice versa.

[KBLover]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

Velocity is interesting. Prior to M10, I believe the devs and fans felt the velocity on the passes was way too high. In the interest of striving for realism w/ M10, I recall a blog that mentioned they were tuning velocity. Additionally, I think it was tweaked so that it varies between passers: QBs with high THP will get the ball downfield faster and vice versa.

I hope they make it a little faster for the 90+ THP guys, especially on longer passes.

I throw a pass with Alex Smith or Joe Flacco or Josh Freeman - and it's really hard to notice a difference, both visually as well as with defender reactions.

Flacco and Freeman (97 THP in my franchise) should really fire that ball.

It looks worse on the slower game speeds as well, imo.

[TNT713]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

Which (for me) begs the question is the trajectory really the main issue? Or is it a mere buzzword that people have leeched on to as a solution to LBs batting down passes left and right?

I'll agree 100% with this questions inference... Trajectory has changed every year since Madden '09 - and every year people have seemed to think it was the cause of the issue.

But I don't think the linebackers JMP ratings are necessarily bad either... I believe that the USER simply hasn't mastered the passing interface well enough to deliver passes over a linebacker OR is making bad reads and throwing when they should not.

Later

[GiantBlue76]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

I'll agree 100% with this questions inference... Trajectory has changed every year since Madden '09 - and every year people have seemed to think it was the cause of the issue.

But I don't think the linebackers JMP ratings are necessarily bad either... I believe that the USER simply hasn't mastered the passing interface well enough to deliver passes over a linebacker OR is making bad reads and throwing when they should not.

Later

I think it's fair that you feel this way, but it's not entirely correct (IMO). I think the problems people have with passing is BOTH. I think it's a combination of the user and the way players react in Madden. At times it can be very realistic and I can see how a LB in the passing lane can get a hand on it. However, I do NOT think it's realistic when he does it on a pass that is travelling 35 yards down field. That is something we can live with. The REAL problem is how that LB can be facing the opposite direction running the opposite way, yet he instantly reacts to the ball as soon as the user pressses the button and he warps into position to make a one handed leaping interception. It's probably not much of an issue to you because you only play madden. Those of us with more experience from "other" games know that where the defender is running and where he is looking DOES have an impact on whether or not he can make a play on the ball.

[Broncos86]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

For the linebackers, it's about a lack of animations. The linebackers react the way they do because there simply isn't any animation that can play out when a linebacker should be off-balance. It doesn't exist.

The game has to decide whether or not the linebacker even reacts to the pass or not. So it runs a check based off stats and decides "yeah, this linebacker sees the pass and reacts to it." Now the game has to choose from the supplied animations available that best fits the criteria for the given situation. So when a throw is made where a linebacker should be caught off-guard and momentum moving in a direction, the game picks an animation that doesn't represent this. The result is an animation, played too quickly, that has the linebacker making superhuman plays.

Then you combine a passing game that only has three types of pass trajectory, poor player momentum, no field of vision for players, and pansy wide receivers, and you have a recipe for passing disaster.

The people who aren't complaining about this (TNT) are the people who have mastered the game of Madden's current passing and like it. Ranked players and tournament players. The main focus is winning at Madden, not getting Madden to replicate football. I know very well that guys who play tournaments don't really like re-learning a game. They want their glitches and tweaks to work. There's a difference between learning the limits of a video game, and wanting that video game to replicate actual football better. TNT, when you say "people make bad reads," that's because SOME of us want to make actual reads that relate to football. What you should really say is "people make bad Madden reads." Because a good read in the NFL isn't always a good read in Madden. And again, this isn't a thread about getting better at Madden's terrible passing game. It's about trying to get Madden passing to replicate NFL passing to a better degree.

[KBLover]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

But I don't think the linebackers JMP ratings are necessarily bad either... I believe that the USER simply hasn't mastered the passing interface well enough to deliver passes over a linebacker OR is making bad reads and throwing when they should not.

The way players jump in Madden is not realistic.

You can not go from a standing position to max height instantly. Even the athletes that the NFL players are can't do it.

That right there changes the timing. It adds a few tenths here or there that make all the difference at the highest level of the game. And in regards to user control - it puts more skill on timing and judging the jump if it had a button mechanic like passing (hold for max jump, slower, or tap for small hop, quick but little height, and everything in between) - along with JMP ratings that are more SPREAD instead of everyone seeming around 10 points of each other - creates more differences and match-ups to truly exploit like a real team would.

Then the fact players do not go off-balance creates problems (like the pass Eli threw over Spikes to where the trajectory was low, but Spikes was going in the opposite direction and all his momentum is going in the other direction - he couldn't get a real jump, barely a hop and the pass went right over him by like inches).

The only way to achieve that is if the linebacker doesn't react at all in Madden. But Spikes didn't fail to react, he just couldn't get his body under control in the brief time the pass was around him.

Do users make bad decisions sometimes? Obviously. We are not infallible. However, the game was also made by fallible humans, and that means it's not always just the user's fault. Sometimes, the game isn't doing stuff right, and we want it done closer to reality.

It's just Madden shortcuts, imo. Just like no real anticipation - but "short cut" of running routes ahead of the WR, or what passes for the 3-4 in this game.

It needs correcting, regardless of how good the user is at passing and reading coverages.

[Smoke6]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

The way players jump in Madden is not realistic.

You can not go from a standing position to max height instantly. Even the athletes that the NFL players are can't do it.

That right there changes the timing. It adds a few tenths here or there that make all the difference at the highest level of the game. And in regards to user control - it puts more skill on timing and judging the jump if it had a button mechanic like passing (hold for max jump, slower, or tap for small hop, quick but little height, and everything in between) - along with JMP ratings that are more SPREAD instead of everyone seeming around 10 points of each other - creates more differences and match-ups to truly exploit like a real team would.

Then the fact players do not go off-balance creates problems (like the pass Eli threw over Spikes to where the trajectory was low, but Spikes was going in the opposite direction and all his momentum is going in the other direction - he couldn't get a real jump, barely a hop and the pass went right over him by like inches).

The only way to achieve that is if the linebacker doesn't react at all in Madden. But Spikes didn't fail to react, he just couldn't get his body under control in the brief time the pass was around him.

Do users make bad decisions sometimes? Obviously. We are not infallible. However, the game was also made by fallible humans, and that means it's not always just the user's fault. Sometimes, the game isn't doing stuff right, and we want it done closer to reality.

It's just Madden shortcuts, imo. Just like no real anticipation - but "short cut" of running routes ahead of the WR, or what passes for the 3-4 in this game.

It needs correcting, regardless of how good the user is at passing and reading coverages.

Same argument can be applied to speed and acceleration in this game, you just cant stand still and once you move you are at max speed. Thats been an issue I have had with this game for years in how people can stop and go full sprint in a fraction of what it should take to get there.

Good post man!

[Big FN Deal]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

I was going to start a new thread for this but figured I probably have created too many threads about M12 already, so I am posting this here.

So after taking a few months hiatus from M12, I have played about 3-4 games the last week or so. Last night, in an online ranked game using the Redskins, Groosman is throwing the ball inaccurately all over the place and receivers are dropping balls when defensive contact is made. Now at first, as usual, I am pissed off at Madden but then I start to notice what a believe to be the same thing in relation to broken up passes, with my opponent's team, the Texans.

Then I began to ponder, man wouldn't it be great if they were actually testing tuning the game so passes are not just random drops, receptions or interceptions but actually need to have time for players to take possession. Then, in relation to Grossman I thought, it would really be great if erratic QB's where actually erratic in Madden, players that sucked actually sucked and effected what their teams could be good at.

I am stating all this to say that it finally really dawned on me how User friendly Madden has been determined to be, to it's detriment. No wonder the game feels stale and repetitive, a User can often mimic the performance and accolades of historically great players and teams with even the most mediocre team in Madden.

M13 really neeeds to capture the internal conflict of teams and their players. If I come in a game with the Redskins expecting to put the game on Grossman's shoulders, I should lose wayyyyyy more games than I win, regardless of my "stick skills". If someone using the Colts and Manning, consistently makes throws to a tightly covered Wayne, there should still be wayyyy more incomplete passes than spectacular grabs.

My point is EA needs to stop seeming to be afraid to let gamers fail, in relation to each team's players inherent risk/rewards. In a RPG, a Battle Mage has different pros and cons than a Mohawk night elf, which makes them both unique.

Please EA/Tiburon, in M13 let Groosman be his "Mohawk night elf", nothing more, nothing less.

[Broncos86]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

Madden needs to have the adjustments that NCAA has for offense and defense. I love being able to tell my receivers to take extra care in pulling catches. That being said, I certainly notice a difference in NCAA. I play as the CSU Rams, and I'm still in the process of building that program. Anyways, I went through one season where my QB (Pete Thomas) was an 88, and his best WRs were in the low 70s. Moreover, they were not good at releasing. The result was that they were often late in their routes, and I couldn't trust them to make tough catches.

Fast forward a year, and I had a couple young kids come up who were actually pretty decent with release and good CIT ratings. They made my passing game soar because of it. I could fit tight passes into small windows and expect them to actually make the catch.

[KBLover]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

I am stating all this to say that it finally really dawned on me how User friendly Madden has been determined to be, to it's detriment. No wonder the game feels stale and repetitive, a User can often mimic the performance and accolades of historically great players and teams with even the most mediocre team in Madden.

About the only way to try to get to here is with sliders, which aren't an option for everyone and shouldn't be the "way out" and even then, you're as much tweaking to YOU (as in your skill at the game) as you are the players.

Part of it goes with "reward the user" for having good timing, etc. Imagine if the user had good timing, but all that meant was being as good as Grossman possibly can be and anything less means your Grossman on a bad day (ugly, or worse, as good as Beck *shudder*)? Probably would be a revolt.

But I know I'd love that - to actually be limited by the player my circle is under, instead being able to supersede his limitations with button timing and stuff.

[RGiles36]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

So after taking a few months hiatus from M12, I have played about 3-4 games the last week or so. Last night, in an online ranked game using the Redskins, Groosman is throwing the ball inaccurately all over the place and receivers are dropping balls when defensive contact is made. Now at first, as usual, I am pissed off at Madden but then I start to notice what a believe to be the same thing in relation to broken up passes, with my opponent's team, the Texans.

Then I began to ponder, man wouldn't it be great if they were actually testing tuning the game so passes are not just random drops, receptions or interceptions but actually need to have time for players to take possession. Then, in relation to Grossman I thought, it would really be great if erratic QB's where actually erratic in Madden, players that sucked actually sucked and effected what their teams could be good at.

Am I missing the point? If Rex is throwing the ball all over the place and having a hard time completing passes to the average receiving corps of the 'Skins, isn't that what we want?

[Broncos86]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

So after taking a few months hiatus from M12, I have played about 3-4 games the last week or so. Last night, in an online ranked game using the Redskins, Groosman is throwing the ball inaccurately all over the place and receivers are dropping balls when defensive contact is made. Now at first, as usual, I am pissed off at Madden but then I start to notice what a believe to be the same thing in relation to broken up passes, with my opponent's team, the Texans.

Then I began to ponder, man wouldn't it be great if they were actually testing tuning the game so passes are not just random drops, receptions or interceptions but actually need to have time for players to take possession. Then, in relation to Grossman I thought, it would really be great if erratic QB's where actually erratic in Madden, players that sucked actually sucked and effected what their teams could be good at.

I am stating all this to say that it finally really dawned on me how User friendly Madden has been determined to be, to it's detriment. No wonder the game feels stale and repetitive, a User can often mimic the performance and accolades of historically great players and teams with even the most mediocre team in Madden.

M13 really neeeds to capture the internal conflict of teams and their players. If I come in a game with the Redskins expecting to put the game on Grossman's shoulders, I should lose wayyyyyy more games than I win, regardless of my "stick skills". If someone using the Colts and Manning, consistently makes throws to a tightly covered Wayne, there should still be wayyyy more incomplete passes than spectacular grabs.

My point is EA needs to stop seeming to be afraid to let gamers fail, in relation to each team's players inherent risk/rewards. In a RPG, a Battle Mage has different pros and cons than a Mohawk night elf, which makes them both unique.

Please EA/Tiburon, in M13 let Groosman be his "Mohawk night elf", nothing more, nothing less.

I don't really get what you're saying here. In one sense, you're saying you put the game on Grossman, and he threw the ball all over the place and you wanted to get upset about it. But then you're asking for Grossman to throw erratically and fail. I don't get it.

In Madden/NCAA, if you have a receiver who isn't very good at catching the ball, he's going to struggle holding onto the ball when contact is made immediately after the catch. So, a receiver needing time to bring in a catch is already in the game. In fact, this is something I use to my advantage when I play defense, timing a hit on a receiver to jar the ball loose right after he catches it. This is what separates the better receivers: can you make catches in tight spaces and hold onto the ball? In Madden, better receivers hold onto the ball on 3rd and 4 on a slant route while getting hit immediately after the catch. A lesser receiver drops the ball. That's the difference between a 3-and-out and a sustained drive.

[TNT713]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

Same argument can be applied to speed and acceleration in this game, you just cant stand still and once you move you are at max speed. Thats been an issue I have had with this game for years in how people can stop and go full sprint in a fraction of what it should take to get there.

Good post man!

I don't know... I accelerate pretty quickly I'm at full speed in about 3 steps coming from a dead stop - 2 out of a cut. But I also weigh about a buck 'o five... LOL

By the way, I'm feeling nicer this week after moving to L.A. and prepping for CD... Take advantage before I get mean again. I'll be compiling what I'll be looking for into a list and I'll publish it here on Monday.

Later

[N51_rob]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

This one is another fun one....

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Anychance we can get the devs to remove this from 13?

[Big FN Deal]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

@Broncos and Rgiles, in my post, I stated

So after taking a few months hiatus from M12, I have played about 3-4 games the last week or so. Last night, in an online ranked game using the Redskins, Groosman is throwing the ball inaccurately all over the place and receivers are dropping balls when defensive contact is made.

Meaning, in that ONE game this is what happened, not consistently before I took a Madden hiatus nor did I notice it in the other 2-3 games after my Madden hiatus. I understand this is a internet forum and somethings sometimes get lost in translation but it seems you both quoted the entire statement but just focused on what would seem to be two conflicting points when isolated out of context.

To clarify, it would be the bees knees if in M13 players consistently performed like their real life counterparts.