There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

[baller7345]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0Ydz7QlDGQ&feature=player_detailpage#t=13s

That throw, over a LB, is nearly impossible in Madden.

I loved backtrack because I used it as the "oh BS!" tool. When I saw utter crap happen (like players phasing through each other), I backtracked it to cancel it out. It just drove me nuts to see it. Madden 09 REALLY needed it.

Ok this is something that isn't a result of a super LB but a poorly designed play in Madden. The colts are running your classic drive concept which is a ton of books in Madden. The difference is that the Colts run the dig route 15 yards downfield where as most of the Drive concepts in Madden are cut off at about 8 meaning that the player running the drag and the player running the Dig are only separated by about 3 yards which just ruins the opportunity that arises when the defensive player takes the drag. If you smart route the out route so that it runs slightly deeper (12 yards) then the throw becomes much more manageable.

[Broncos86]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

A few things... First, I'm faster and more agile than most 38 year olds and have a technique that allows me to make an instant 180 degree turn from a full speed run. I simply run fast and plant my lead foot while drop my center into a lunge as I torque my body to come out running in the opposite direction. First time I did it, I was being chased by someone with equivalent speed. When he reached out his hand to grab me, I dropped and turned. When I looked back, he was still rolling. That said, I have the body mass of a wad of paper (less than 150lbs) so take it for what it's worth. LOL

Being 6'1" and 185 lbs, I can't quite make that kind of cut. That being said, I've played hockey against guys who are just super small, and they are in fact just crazy-light on their feet. They pay for it, too. >

I think part of the issue is that we assume the circle is the best place to catch the ball because when Madden debuted on Genesis - that's how the circle indicator was introduced. Since the player models and movements have changed, the circle isn't the best place to catch the ball - it merely represents the point at which the ball is even with a receiver's numbers. Without this basic information, it is impossible for the USER to locate the ball properly.

Later

I don't really want to get into a stick skills kind of debate, because I'm not the kind of gamer to take control of the receiver. The point, for me, is that the CPU needs to be able to handle this. And, I'll venture to say, this is going to be true for the majority of Madden gamers. Next thing we know, we're going to be discussing rocket catches.

[TNT713]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

Being 6'1" and 185 lbs, I can't quite make that kind of cut. That being said, I've played hockey against guys who are just super small, and they are in fact just crazy-light on their feet. They pay for it, too. >

LMAO - reminds me of a time I played 11-on-11 dorm vs. dorm pickup game I played in college an NC A&T in Greensboro. We played right outside the women's dorm and cafeteria on a Saturday and had a crowd of at least 300 watching us. Everyone assumed that because I was so tiny (back then 5'6" and about 125lbs) that I couldn't play. Back then I could throw a spiral 60+ yards and hit a snail in the eye, ran a 4.5, and could cut on a dime in one step and leave change...

As you can imagine, I talk face-to-face with the same attitude you see in my posts... Which puts a HUGE bullseye on your back when people can finally take a legal shot at you.

In the game I picked off a pass and shook a few dudes out of their jocks before being snatched off the ground, overhead pressed about 7 feet in the air by a member of the varsity football team, and slammed to the ground to the sound of everyone going "OHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!"

I wasn't expected to get up, but I did. Not too fast though... Pop up too fast and everyone knows it REALLY HURT. Twas the first of several malicious hits I took that day from people weighing 230+. I payed for it, but it was the last time I had to earn respect as a football player.

I don't really want to get into a stick skills kind of debate, because I'm not the kind of gamer to take control of the receiver. The point, for me, is that the CPU needs to be able to handle this. And, I'll venture to say, this is going to be true for the majority of Madden gamers. Next thing we know, we're going to be discussing rocket catches.

I strongly recommend user catching to everyone with fingers.

I used to be among the people that let the CPU catch... Til DnA victimized me in an online game and put me on blast for a lack of defensive user skills in Madden '04. He said that he simply found the man I was controlling and threw the ball right at me - lost 38-7 and I'll NEVER FORGET IT.

I'm the type of gamer who never wants to lose the same way twice... I've been user controlling players ever since on both sides of the ball. I refuse to lose because of the CPU - I only trust MYSELF to make the plays I know should be made. Ever since, I've improved my win percentage every year... Back then I won about 27% - now I win almost 60%.

Like I said, I never want to lose the same way twice.

Later

[Broncos86]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

I strongly recommend user catching to everyone with fingers.

I used to be among the people that let the CPU catch... Til DnA victimized me in an online game and put me on blast for a lack of defensive user skills in Madden '04. He said that he simply found the man I was controlling and threw the ball right at me - lost 38-7 and I'll NEVER FORGET IT.

I'm the type of gamer who never wants to lose the same way twice... I've been user controlling players ever since on both sides of the ball. I refuse to lose because of the CPU - I only trust MYSELF to make the plays I know should be made. Ever since, I've improved my win percentage every year... Back then I won about 27% - now I win almost 60%.

Like I said, I never want to lose the same way twice.

Later

I'm offline franchise only. I just don't play online. I'm okay with losing a game because a wide receiver didn't make the right route or attempt. To me, that's just reason to find a better player. But to each their own, I know some guys are all about stick all the time. Some guys just play coach mode.

[TNT713]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

I'm offline franchise only. I just don't play online. I'm okay with losing a game because a wide receiver didn't make the right route or attempt. To me, that's just reason to find a better player. But to each their own, I know some guys are all about stick all the time. Some guys just play coach mode.

That's the beauty of the game... Millions of people playing millions of different ways for millions of different reasons. That said, it's also what makes satisfying us all so difficult for the developers.

Later

[TNT713]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

Care to enlighten me/us on howto? I suck with the Colts...

I wish it were a simple matter of explaining in a concise step-by-step process - but it's not that simple. But there's something about making the perfect pass that just 'FEELS RIGHT' and the more experienced we become the easier it becomes...

Right now, I've played so much Madden that the 'right' pass is instinctive as having the hair on the back of you neck stand up when there's an unseen danger. Fortunately feeling so connected to the passing interface makes my hair stand on my neck figuratively as soon as I press the button to throw now when I've made a mistake (far too often I'm afraid). That's why I implore people to practice building their mechanics from the ground up instead of jumping right into the game.

Here's what I did/do, maybe it can help you feel like you're at one with the passing interface:

1) Set your clock.

Go into practice mode with the offense only and choose any pass play. Snap the ball and take a pass drop being sure to count each of your QB's steps out loud. Don't throw... Just drop. Repeat it several times taking a 3-step drop, then 5, then 7. It's important that you count your steps aloud each time to set your mental clock.

2) Make the throws.

Now that your clock is set, choose a play with one or both of the outside receivers running a hook routes. Take a 5 step drop and throw the ball immediately after planting your back foot. Be sure to release the stick to allow it to return to the neutral position and hit the receiver icon button. The QB should take a 6th step in the direction of the receiver and fire the ball directly at his chest as soon as the receiver gets turned.

Keep in mind - if the ball goes ahead of the receiver so he runs a streak the pass came out too early. If he's stationary when the ball arrives, the pass came out too late. Ultimately the goal of this drill is to hit the receiver in the chest ON TIME.

3) Locate the pass

For this drill, imagine a defender somewhere in relation to the receiver running the hook and throw away from him. Take your 5-step drop, release the stick as in the previous drill BUT this time reengage the stick in the direction opposite your imaginary defender simultaneously as you activate the receivers icon button. Use this drill to get the hang of throwing high, low, inside, and outside of the receiver.

4) Add the defense

Now, exit Offense only mode and return to Normal practice with a defense. Choose the same offensive play from step 2 and 3 on offense and choose any defense that places your intended receiver in single man-to-man coverage. Take the same 5-step drop, let the stick go neutral, then reactivate it so you throw away from the real defender simultaneously as you activate the receivers icon button. If you have timed it perfectly, the DB should turn to run upfield just as the receiver turns to catch the ball. You should catch the ball with time to make one quick move before the DB can turn back around and recover. To late and the ball is caught with nowhere to run, batted, or picked. Throw too early and the pass is sight adjusted upfield where the DB can make a play.

5) Add more routes

For each route you want to throw, start without the defense and take the drop that syncs up with where the route breaks. For routes that keep moving, you'll need to work on getting the proper pressure to lead your receiver to more/less while slightly adjusting the trajectory of the pass.

As the throws become more instinctive, start throwing to receivers that are closer toward the middle to get the subtle timing and trajectory differences between a WR running a route and a TE running the same route. Soon, you'll have a basis for making all the throws you need for every route you want to use in a game.

Most important you won't need to look at receivers anymore. Come game time, you can focus your full attention on reading the defense instead and making the right throw to beat them - often without having to think about it.

Hope this helps,

Later

[RGiles36]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

When cornerbacks are capable of just stopping (no, not canceling momentum and beating a route, I mean just STOPPING) and turning around immediately to beat a curl route, there are issues. These are not subjective opinions. These are measurable and real. Last year, there was a thread about super linebackers being back, and I posted 4 videos that demonstrated how, in the NFL linebackers reacted to throws around them and over them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0Ydz7QlDGQ&feature=player_detailpage#t=67s

Finally watched this video last night -- definitely a good look into how LBs react to passes. I don't know how that should translate to Madden though. Maybe just remove that jump swat animation altogether for LBs? Slow down the their reactions to passes? I haven't a foggy idea...

[KBLover]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

Finally watched this video last night -- definitely a good look into how LBs react to passes. I don't know how that should translate to Madden though. Maybe just remove that jump swat animation altogether for LBs? Slow down the their reactions to passes? I haven't a foggy idea...

Kill their JMP ratings.

That seems to be how the roster editing folks seem to be doing it.

Only defenders that should likely have good JMP ratings are probably DBs. Short of that, removing the jumping-swat animation is not a bad idea, or reserve it for the few LBs who do have a good vertical and also have above average coverage ratings.

Then again, I'm totally against any slowing down of LB reactions. They are slow enough, imo.

[TNT713]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

Kill their JMP ratings.

That seems to be how the roster editing folks seem to be doing it.

Only defenders that should likely have good JMP ratings are probably DBs. Short of that, removing the jumping-swat animation is not a bad idea, or reserve it for the few LBs who do have a good vertical and also have above average coverage ratings.

Then again, I'm totally against any slowing down of LB reactions. They are slow enough, imo.

OR... And I think this is the best possible scenario:

EMPHASIZE USER RESPONSIBILITY and TEACH PROPER TECHNIQUE.

Instead of blaming the car for driving itself into a tree, how about looking at the driver who was activating the pedals and wheel. Makes sense in real life. Makes sense in Madden. Instead of patting folks on the head when they make a mistake and blaming the software, we should emphasize teaching users how to throw better passes.

The exercise above works to help master controlling passes using what EA has already placed in the game specifically for the purpose of giving the user control. I'm amazed that after years of having a range of touch pass trajectory possibilities that we are still blaming EA when the user activated the button that caused their passes to be knocked down.

EA didn't throw a single pass batted or picked by a Superman LB (even though there's nothing super about an LB's jump) - the USER DID. There are literally thousands of players that throw accurate passes over linebackers directly in the path of the ball, but have a mastery of controlling ball trajectory.

It seems like ball trajectory is a problem because those who have mastered the proper techniques are silently laughing at people who broadcast their weaknesses and get all the attention.

It's analogous to people wanting to blame the ball when they throw a pick... Sounds silly. That's because it is silly... Step up, master the techniques, and quit blaming EA for our errors - correct them instead. Only then can EA focus on correcting what's REALLY wrong with the series.

Later

[RGiles36]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

OR... And I think this is the best possible scenario:

EMPHASIZE USER RESPONSIBILITY and TEACH PROPER TECHNIQUE.

C'mon guy! Will you give this rhetoric a rest and stop beating it down our throats?!? I agree with some of things you say, but the notion that almost every issue in-game is a user issue is inaccurate.

There's something to be said for user responsibility and technique, but not for everything. If the trajectory and linebackers aren't an issue for you, FANTASTIC my man. But for the rest of the Madden forum, it is.

You're not the only person who plays Madden year round dude.

[C the Lyte]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

OR... And I think this is the best possible scenario:

EMPHASIZE USER RESPONSIBILITY and TEACH PROPER TECHNIQUE.

Instead of blaming the car for driving itself into a tree, how about looking at the driver who was activating the pedals and wheel. Makes sense in real life. Makes sense in Madden. Instead of patting folks on the head when they make a mistake and blaming the software, we should emphasize teaching users how to throw better passes.

The exercise above works to help master controlling passes using what EA has already placed in the game specifically for the purpose of giving the user control. I'm amazed that after years of having a range of touch pass trajectory possibilities that we are still blaming EA when the user activated the button that caused their passes to be knocked down.

EA didn't throw a single pass batted or picked by a Superman LB (even though there's nothing super about an LB's jump) - the USER DID. There are literally thousands of players that throw accurate passes over linebackers directly in the path of the ball, but have a mastery of controlling ball trajectory.

It seems like ball trajectory is a problem because those who have mastered the proper techniques are silently laughing at people who broadcast their weaknesses and get all the attention.

It's analogous to people wanting to blame the ball when they throw a pick... Sounds silly. That's because it is silly... Step up, master the techniques, and quit blaming EA for our errors - correct them instead. Only then can EA focus on correcting what's REALLY wrong with the series.

Later

This used to be my line of thinking until a few months ago.

To use your car analogy... what do you expect the user to do if the car only has 3 speeds... Stop, 5 MPH, or 100 MPH.

In my estimation, 60 - 65 % of picks thrown by the user are in fact poor judgement throws.

However, 35 - 40 % is still a large number that was really no fault of the user, just poor ball trajectory (notice, not Super LB's).

It doesn't matter how much you take off or put on the ball, the holes behind the LB's and in front of the safties are practically useless unless no LB's are in zone.

[KBLover]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

OR... And I think this is the best possible scenario:

EMPHASIZE USER RESPONSIBILITY and TEACH PROPER TECHNIQUE.

Instead of blaming the car for driving itself into a tree, how about looking at the driver who was activating the pedals and wheel. Makes sense in real life. Makes sense in Madden. Instead of patting folks on the head when they make a mistake and blaming the software, we should emphasize teaching users how to throw better passes.

The exercise above works to help master controlling passes using what EA has already placed in the game specifically for the purpose of giving the user control. I'm amazed that after years of having a range of touch pass trajectory possibilities that we are still blaming EA when the user activated the button that caused their passes to be knocked down.

EA didn't throw a single pass batted or picked by a Superman LB (even though there's nothing super about an LB's jump) - the USER DID. There are literally thousands of players that throw accurate passes over linebackers directly in the path of the ball, but have a mastery of controlling ball trajectory.

It seems like ball trajectory is a problem because those who have mastered the proper techniques are silently laughing at people who broadcast their weaknesses and get all the attention.

It's analogous to people wanting to blame the ball when they throw a pick... Sounds silly. That's because it is silly... Step up, master the techniques, and quit blaming EA for our errors - correct them instead. Only then can EA focus on correcting what's REALLY wrong with the series.

Later

Learning proper technique doesn't excuse the fact the way the jumping deflections work is not realistic.

Doing that while moving and momentum going in different directions and having to time it perfectly while not even knowing if the ball is going to the underneath guy or not - I don't think they are going to get the full amount of their jump. That video Broncos posted showed it.

That defender didn't have time to "load up" and get his full vertical, so he wasn't able to tip the pass. Players in Madden don't have to "load up" to get their full vertical. You hit the button and up they go. Jumping should work like passing, imo. Hold down for the max leap (at the expense of slower execution just like in real life a full jump is going to take you longer to execute than a quick hop), tap for more of a "hop" type move. Quicker, but not full vertical range.

This would also help JMP matter more. They could spread it out and the 90s could do more with their "hop" than the 60s, who'd need more full jumps and have a harder time timing it right.

It doesn't help that they are input reading so they know, even before you release the ball, where you're going (so they know if they need to even jump or not) and with what timing (especially since you can't change your release point, release speed and all QBs have the same release speed).

Passes also travel with too little velocity. See how hard Peyton threw that pass? In Madden, that pass would "linger" more (especially playing at Normal game speed or less), giving defenders more time to react. Only the lesser-armed QBs should throw "lingering" passes unless doing a pure touch pass like a fade or a lob that you're laying up to a wide open WR to make dropping it almost impossible.

Yes, you can learn how to get around it. That doesn't mean its working like it should.

Sometimes the User can learn more and improve his/her game. Unless any of us are perfect players, we all have things we can work on.

Sometimes, Madden needs to get better to. You may call it patting people on the head, but I call it seeing both sides of the coin. Madden isn't the perfect game, so it has areas to work on as well.

Again, in this case, I think both are right. Some guys may need more work in passing and Madden needs to represent this type of pass in a more realistic manner.

[RGiles36]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

However, 35 - 40 % is still a large number that was really no fault of the user, just poor ball trajectory (notice, not Super LB's).

I actually think it's the other way around. I don't think the passing trajectory is as woeful as people suggest that it is. The only issue I have is when defenders 10 yards off the ball are making plays. If they concentrate on that, I think that would fix the "passing arch" issue. That seems to be the major difference between passing the ball in Madden and previous football games.

But the linebackers' jump ability has to be modified as well. As KB suggested, these guys seem to be getting vertical without any momentum considered. And it happens so fast that it just doesn't look very believable to be honest.

[C the Lyte]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

I actually think it's the other way around. I don't think the passing trajectory is as woeful as people suggest that it is. The only issue I have is when defenders 10 yards off the ball are making plays. If they concentrate on that, I think that would fix the "passing arch" issue. That seems to be the major difference between passing the ball in Madden and previous football games.

There are work arounds and you have to be a bit more disciplined. Momentum is crap as well though because on defender can defend a drag or slant route as well as the trail route behind him, no matter if you try a back shoulder throw or not.

But the linebackers' jump ability has to be modified as well. As KB suggested, these guys seem to be getting vertical without any momentum considered. And it happens so fast that it just doesn't look very believable to be honest.

As true as this is... do you think it can ever be fixed? At least on this gen consoles? On a year to year development cycle?

[TNT713]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

KB,

My point about focusing on throwing the ball correctly would best be illustrated with a hypothetical based on the throw Peyton made...

We've already established that the LB in the vid reacted quickly and jumped at the right time to knock the pass down. But Peyton put the ball high enough that he couldn't reach it.

If Madden players learn how to put the ball where the umping linebacker can't reach it - this entire discussion never happens. Peyton threw the ball CORRECTLY. When Madden players throw CORRECTLY they aren't concerned about the jumping LB. It's only when they throw too low that the LB becomes a concern.

I don't think anyone will argue this, but if Peyton had thrown that pass low enough for the LB to get a hand on it, it would have been PEYTON'S FAULT for throwing the ball low enough for the LB to get it. Using this same logic - LB momentum and ball trajectory are completely unrelated issues.

That said, there is much to be improved in the way of player momentum and how JMP ratings work. NO DOUBT. But that's not the issue as much as the person that doesn't throw the ball right to complete the passes they attempt. The linkage between LB jumps and ball trajectories are tangential. Two separate issues that only seem related because they are seen together whenever someone makes a poor throw.

Lastly - doing something right isn't a workaround.

Later