There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

[Big FN Deal]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

There are work arounds and you have to be a bit more disciplined. Momentum is crap as well though because on defender can defend a drag or slant route as well as the trail route behind him, no matter if you try a back shoulder throw or not.




As true as this is... do you think it can ever be fixed? At least on this gen consoles? On a year to year development cycle?

I am not directing this at the poster but Helen yeah! lol. I don't recall having this issue in other NFL football games and gamers claim they have addressed it with sliders so I don't see why the developers couldn't do so.

I have been irked by plenty of stuff this entire generation of NFL exclusivity but the EA/Tiburon "excuses" echo chamber is one of the worst irkers for me. Memory limitations, annual development cycles, football is hard to program, blah, blah, blah, that we gamers constantly repeat. I am no programmer or video game tech but I don't think all of a sudden after EA obtained the exclusive NFL license in 2004, that all these development challenges suddenly appeared.

I am not currently married but have many married friends that sometimes want to complain to me about their spouse and how hard marriage is. While I try to be supportive and be a good listener, I always remind them of one fact about their spouse/marriage, "you chose them". Likewise for EA and the developers that have the job of creating Madden.

[TNT713]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

As true as this is... do you think it can ever be fixed? At least on this gen consoles? On a year to year development cycle?

Absolutely!!! If they can take suction out of the equation, easily the biggest issue with the series since '09, the link between momentum and jumping can be addressed.

But only if there's no diversion to focus on something like 'hand towels'... LOL

Later

[Broncos86]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

Wait a minute. Let's back up here. TNT, you need to re-evaluate HOW that linebacker reacted in that video, and relate it to how linebackers react in Madden. Look at his feet, he barely is able to get off the ground. In Madden, the linebackers are instantaneously jumping at max vert with two hands at the ready. That is a HUGE HUGE difference from a linebacker who gets in a small hop with one hand in the process of extension as the ball goes over his head.

This is about linebackers who are instantly reacting and ball trajectory. This problem extends even down to the NCAA high school level! Playing Road to Glory, I saw high school level nobodys making the same type of reactions that 90 overall NFL linebackers were making in Madden. This has nothing to do with any kind of "well, in life they really are great athletes" argument. This is about a very broken aspect of Madden that relates to animations and how the games allows for those animations. This is a technical argument. It's NOT a hard issue to fix.

They simply need to re-tool the animations for linebackers and give a greater range of angle for ball trajectory. Currently, linebackers just don't have a "oh crap!!" animation to play when a ball goes zipping by them unexpectedly. You either get no animation at all and they stand there dumbfounded, or they play the animations they have immediately. That's the core issue, and it's not hard to fix. It just takes a matter of prioritizing this stuff.

You cannot throw the ball "correctly" over a linebacker in Madden because it's just not possible. The ball speed, trajectory, and linebacker animations are so limiting that there are few scenarios that can play out. Either you lob the ball over a linebacker, and the arc and speed of the ball allowed for the safety to make a play, or you fire a bullet that nearly hits the linebacker in the face. And considering that linebackers will react and play an animation on balls that are within 3 yards of them, the range around a linebacker that he can cover over the middle is quite larger than an actual linebacker.

[RGiles36]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

As true as this is... do you think it can ever be fixed? At least on this gen consoles? On a year to year development cycle?

To echo what others have said, absolutely. Remember M08 where the LBs didn't just super-swat passes, they picked them! That's not an issue anymore (for me I should say).

If the folks that do roster-edits can fix that portion of the game, I firmly believe EA can do something about it. I think the battle they face would be balance: how do they scale back those deflections without rendering linebackers useless in the passing game?

If Madden players learn how to put the ball where the umping linebacker can't reach it - this entire discussion never happens. Peyton threw the ball CORRECTLY. When Madden players throw CORRECTLY they aren't concerned about the jumping LB. It's only when they throw too low that the LB becomes a concern.

I know you've been playing Madden for the past 200 or so years as you put it (LOL) and you've "mastered" the passing game, but can I tell you something? You, sir, do not have any more control over your passes then the rest of us. In saying that, you can use the precision passing and that won't stop the LB from hitting his max vert in milliseconds to bat down that pass.

For full disclosure, LB deflections do not ruin the game. You do learn to play within what the game allows you to do. But it is an issue that is worth looking into and correcting.

[C the Lyte]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

Absolutely!!! If they can take suction out of the equation, easily the biggest issue with the series since '09, the link between momentum and jumping can be addressed.

Suction was not completely removed, just reduced.

But only if there's no diversion to focus on something like 'hand towels'... LOL

Later

Just because "hand towels" aren't important to you doesn't mean they aren't to some one else.

I agree with you on the "hand towel" thing but there are many others that do not.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

KB,

My point about focusing on throwing the ball correctly would best be illustrated with a hypothetical based on the throw Peyton made...

We've already established that the LB in the vid reacted quickly and jumped at the right time to knock the pass down. But Peyton put the ball high enough that he couldn't reach it.

If Madden players learn how to put the ball where the umping linebacker can't reach it - this entire discussion never happens. Peyton threw the ball CORRECTLY. When Madden players throw CORRECTLY they aren't concerned about the jumping LB. It's only when they throw too low that the LB becomes a concern.

I don't think anyone will argue this, but if Peyton had thrown that pass low enough for the LB to get a hand on it, it would have been PEYTON'S FAULT for throwing the ball low enough for the LB to get it. Using this same logic - LB momentum and ball trajectory are completely unrelated issues.

That said, there is much to be improved in the way of player momentum and how JMP ratings work. NO DOUBT. But that's not the issue as much as the person that doesn't throw the ball right to complete the passes they attempt. The linkage between LB jumps and ball trajectories are tangential. Two separate issues that only seem related because they are seen together whenever someone makes a poor throw.

Lastly - doing something right isn't a workaround.

Later

It can be difficult to tell the difference between being stubborn versus being steadfast with one being considered a fault, the other a virtue depending on context. For me, your posts are often a great example of this, where I can total respect and agree with your steadfastness in one post, then be completely taken aback by your stubbornness in another.

If the people that actually create the game, don't claim the intent for Madden to currently have things like hidden pass trajectories, route based passing, timing routes, double team pass blocking and any number of things Madden aficionados sometimes assert are in the game, I don't see how anyone can credibly claim they work "right".

Exploits are not inherently good or bad, it's just how they are utilized that the community uses to determine them "cheese" or "sim". However, make no mistake, manipulating things in Madden in a way not intended by design is exploiting the game, even if they produce NFL "sim" results.

The problem with applying your "man in the mirror" POV for every issue in Madden is that it's too broad to cover every situation's specifics. Yes, ultimately it's all on the User because they decide whether or not to even play Madden but for some doing it right means more to them then just doing what works.

For example, if Punt Block, was discovered to be 100% effective against the Goal line Fade inside the 10yd line in Madden, the "man in the mirror" POV is that if the offense does a goal line fade and the defense doesn't counter with a punt block, it's the User's fault for not doing what works. However, anybody that knows the least little bit about football understands while it may work in Madden, it sure aint' right.

I think it's great if you or anybody else have found ways to combine your football knowledge and understanding of Madden mechanics to achieve realistic results but that is clearly a workaround and would be unnecessary if Madden represented football right.

[TNT713]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

Suction was not completely removed, just reduced.



Just because "hand towels" aren't important to you doesn't mean they aren't to some one else.

I agree with you on the "hand towel" thing but there are many others that do not.

My point is that, listening to those people is exactly what's messing up the game for everyone.

Later

[C the Lyte]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

KB,

My point about focusing on throwing the ball correctly would best be illustrated with a hypothetical based on the throw Peyton made...

We've already established that the LB in the vid reacted quickly and jumped at the right time to knock the pass down. But Peyton put the ball high enough that he couldn't reach it.

If Madden players learn how to put the ball where the umping linebacker can't reach it - this entire discussion never happens. Peyton threw the ball CORRECTLY. When Madden players throw CORRECTLY they aren't concerned about the jumping LB. It's only when they throw too low that the LB becomes a concern.

I don't think anyone will argue this, but if Peyton had thrown that pass low enough for the LB to get a hand on it, it would have been PEYTON'S FAULT for throwing the ball low enough for the LB to get it. Using this same logic - LB momentum and ball trajectory are completely unrelated issues.

That said, there is much to be improved in the way of player momentum and how JMP ratings work. NO DOUBT. But that's not the issue as much as the person that doesn't throw the ball right to complete the passes they attempt. The linkage between LB jumps and ball trajectories are tangential. Two separate issues that only seem related because they are seen together whenever someone makes a poor throw.

Lastly - doing something right isn't a workaround.

Later

I am assuming when you say correctly, in Madden, you mean not where the LB can jump and grab/swat. NOT over their head.

B/c if I were to "put some touch" on the pass, it ends up floating so bad I could pick it off with my hoodie.

TNT, are there any flaws in the passing game to you?

[TNT713]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

BigFN,

My point to saying doing something right not being a workaround doesn't imply that finding a gimmick that works equates to doing it right.

Regarding hidden trajectories... they aren't hidden. They are in plain sight and easily accessible to any and all who care enough to try.

And if you're wondering why I seem so steadfast in my approach - it's because it NEVER FAILS (over the long haul).

Later

[Broncos86]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

I'd prefer to master a passing system that reflected actual football more closely. I'm not saying the passing game can't be mastered, but it sure isn't realistic. Yeah, sure, I can learn to take control of all my receivers and game the system. I'd rather have a more realistic passing game.

TNT, why don't you provide us with some video?

[Big FN Deal]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

BigFN,

My point to saying doing something right not being a workaround doesn't imply that finding a gimmick that works equates to doing it right.

Regarding hidden trajectories... they aren't hidden. They are in plain sight and easily accessible to any and all who care enough to try.

And if you're wondering why I seem so steadfast in my approach - it's because it NEVER FAILS (over the long haul).

Later

I had a slight lapse in judgement with semantics using the word "hidden" so I will say, "unexplained" pass trajectories instead.

While you do seem virtuously steadfast with your "never fail approach" of blaming the man in the mirror, you seem equally as faultily stubborn when ignoring the need for EA and their Madden developers to do the same.

[RGiles36]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

Just because "hand towels" aren't important to you doesn't mean they aren't to some one else.

I agree with you on the "hand towel" thing but there are many others that do not.

This is certainly not directed specifically at TNT, but I notice that some gamers generally like to mock the fans that place any emphasis on the cosmetics. But hell, those cosmetics have Madden at least looking more authentic then any NFL game to date. I think the player models are the best they've ever been in a Madden game. The flaks have brought the QBs to life and the backplates have the skilled position players looking really authentic as well.

Gameplay is king no doubt, but cosmetics have their place in the sports gaming realm as well. The goal is authenticity, and that extends beyond what happens between the whistles.

My two cents...

[TNT713]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

B/c if I were to "put some touch" on the pass, it ends up floating so bad I could pick it off with my hoodie.

TNT, are there any flaws in the passing game to you?

Touch passes that are neither lobs nor bullets are how you "throw receivers open" in Madden. IMO, these passes give you the best range of placement as opposed to the others. And YES, there are several flaws in the passing game. I just don't agree that Pass Trajectory is among them.

I'd prefer to master a passing system that reflected actual football more closely. I'm not saying the passing game can't be mastered, but it sure isn't realistic. Yeah, sure, I can learn to take control of all my receivers and game the system. I'd rather have a more realistic passing game.

TNT, why don't you provide us with some video?

Videos?

I'm glad you asked. Been making videos since Madden 10 was out... That link in my sig - MaddenUniversity.com - is one of the longest active Madden websites on the internet. The sole purpose is to help Madden players play Madden better FREE OF CHARGE. Launched same day as Madden 2004. Check it out:

MaddenUniversity.com

We have game footage, instructional videos, articles, calendars, links to dozens of Madden related sites... We've hosted 13 tournaments in 2 states and have awarded $7000 in cash prizes since 2008.

Our latest offering, "18 Year Rivals" features actual film from games between my best friend and I along with a feature we introduced last year:

2-Minute Drill :: Madden's Fastest 2:00

Check my YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/TNT713

I might not care if I'm liked - but I do care about the skill level of the players playing Madden. I sincerely believe that better players = better experiences. It's purely selfish though, I want to play knowledgeable, skilled, respectful players so I do what I can to improve and help others improve.

While you do seem virtuously steadfast
with your "never fail approach" of blaming the man in the mirror, you seem equally as faultily stubborn when ignoring the need for EA and their Madden developers to do the same.

Point acknowledged and agreed upon. I do go out of my way to not blame EA for what's wrong with the game, but it's a function of how and why I play as opposed to me simply having blinders on.

I cannot be the best player I can be when I'm focused on what EA has done wrong. If anything, that approach will prevent me from becoming the best I can be.

If you listen to "Game Changers Radio #18" I come on to talk about several things that are wrong with the series AND the people who play it. Not to mention creative ways I improve my own play. My segment starts at about 11 minutes, runs for about 10-15, then it's MadScientist, ShopMaster, and myself talking Madden for another hour. Well worth a listen if you have the time - and it will help you understand my position a little better to give my posts more context.

This is certainly not directed specifically at TNT, but I notice that some gamers generally like to mock the fans that place any emphasis on the cosmetics. But hell, those cosmetics have Madden at least looking more authentic then any NFL game to date. I think the player models are the best they've ever been in a Madden game. The flaks have brought the QBs to life and the backplates have the skilled position players looking really authentic as well.

Gameplay is king no doubt, but cosmetics have their place in the sports gaming realm as well. The goal is authenticity, and that extends beyond what happens between the whistles.

My two cents...

Not at me, but since I'm replying to other stuff... I agree aesthetics have a place and are appreciated, but I'd take game with exceptional game play and shotty cosmetics over a game with shotty game play and exquisite aesthetics 7 days a week.

I do like good player models and Flak Jackets (core to football since I first saw Terry Bradshaw wearing one).

The green dot on the helmets is a nice touch, but I can't see the one on the QB's head from the coordinator's cam and the linebacker with the dot is facing me. YES it's authentic, but it doesn't really ADD to the experience - at least for me it doesn't.

The way I see it, aesthetics for aesthetics sake is unacceptable (like a pretty wife that can't read). Aesthetic improvements should be more than eye-candy. It should be organically connected to the expereince...

And to dispel the myth, I'm glad there are hand towels - but I wouldn't care if there weren't. What would be kool is if I actually saw someone wipe their hands with one every now and then. If they are going to be on the game, they should function like they do in the real game - to dry someone's hands.

Later

[GiantBlue76]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

It can be difficult to tell the difference between being stubborn versus being steadfast with one being considered a fault, the other a virtue depending on context. For me, your posts are often a great example of this, where I can total respect and agree with your steadfastness in one post, then be completely taken aback by your stubbornness in another.

If the people that actually create the game, don't claim the intent for Madden to currently have things like hidden pass trajectories, route based passing, timing routes, double team pass blocking and any number of things Madden aficionados sometimes assert are in the game, I don't see how anyone can credibly claim they work "right".

Exploits are not inherently good or bad, it's just how they are utilized that the community uses to determine them "cheese" or "sim". However, make no mistake, manipulating things in Madden in a way not intended by design is exploiting the game, even if they produce NFL "sim" results.

The problem with applying your "man in the mirror" POV for every issue in Madden is that it's too broad to cover every situation's specifics. Yes, ultimately it's all on the User because they decide whether or not to even play Madden but for some doing it right means more to them then just doing what works.

For example, if Punt Block, was discovered to be 100% effective against the Goal line Fade inside the 10yd line in Madden, the "man in the mirror" POV is that if the offense does a goal line fade and the defense doesn't counter with a punt block, it's the User's fault for not doing what works. However, anybody that knows the least little bit about football understands while it may work in Madden, it sure aint' right.

I think it's great if you or anybody else have found ways to combine your football knowledge and understanding of Madden mechanics to achieve realistic results but that is clearly a workaround and would be unnecessary if Madden represented football right.

Best post this entire year.

TNT,

I'm in complete agreement with you on your example of hand towels. I was mesmerized by the clamoring for cleats, towels, face masks and other minute details that went on here for quite some time. While I think those items ARE a big part of things, they should only be considered once the football is right. The fact that we have hand towels, green dots and wrist bands, but we don't have the real penalties, we have warping, we have broken challenge systems, zig zag running, etc. etc. is a travesty in my mind.

Of course, on this particular topic, I'm only interested in playing Madden against a person. I love to win, don't get me wrong, but I enjoy the chess match aspect of it. I enjoy trying to apply real football understanding to my madden games against someone who is on the other end reacting to my strategy. To me, the actual football gameplay is the most important thing. Nothing else is a close second.

[TNT713]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

Of course, on this particular topic, I'm only interested in playing Madden against a person. I love to win, don't get me wrong, but I enjoy the chess match aspect of it. I enjoy trying to apply real football understanding to my madden games against someone who is on the other end reacting to my strategy. To me, the actual football gameplay is the most important thing. Nothing else is a close second.

Ditto...

It's more fun playing chess against someone who knows how to play chess at least as well or better.

Last post of the day at OS for me - lol - my keyboard is about to explode.

Later