There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

[KBLover]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

- dice rolls that determine results before they actually happen (ie leaping defender picking off ball in one handed air grab...reciever cannot break it up, or defender will not drop it)

Part of that is everything just halts once a pick is made, but when the catch is attempted - defenders can knock it out.

That's probably why there's all the "dropped INTs" in the game - that and the fact the game tends to create very few "just bad passes" unless the ball is thrown so badly that most NFL QBs average or better won't throw that badly.

That's always annoyed me that a completed INT is 100% automatic because it goes into the whole spin around thing, so it has to halt the action, but then it halts any risk that the offense has to deal with - the ball getting knocked out.

[TNT713]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

It's super easy and effective and it gets you out of this counter-productive discussion.

This discussion isn't counter-productive, per se... It has been productive to elicit several ideas about what's wrong with the passing system and the ancillary items that aren't part of the passing system, but are typically witnessed alongside it (catching systems, coverage systems, animation systems, etc).

It has also been productive in determining what parts of the passing interface are off-limits because the Madden faithful, like myself, are unwilling to do without. Unfortunately, a vast majority of die-hard Madden fans do not post at OS so to the casual observer it seems as if Madden has few if any real fans who play the game happily - while still having the ability to recognize and acknowledge that the game could be improved.

To the outside observer, we seem to be either hard-headed Madden fan boys that are so conservative that anything less than the status quo is unwelcome OR whiny Madden haters who won't stop until they have disrupted the feel of the brand to have it become something altogether different. All the while EA is trying to please both groups in ways that make neither happy with the product.

We've also seen plenty of people making demands that seemingly seek to hold the brand hostage - despite their not having bought or played the game in years. When non-customers make demands of the series that change the feel of the brand, it upsets loyal customers who buy Madden every year without fail because of it.

If you haven't bought Madden in years - EA isn't missing your money; If people like me stop buying Madden - EA WILL CERTAINLY MISS OURS.

Does that mean my opinion is worth more? Not really. But a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. It requires more dollars to get new customers than to keep the ones you have.

Wooing guys that don't play Madden, is a risk. Even if you put everything they want in the game, they still might not buy it. That said, putting everything guys who don't buy Madden want in the game is likely to alienate the die-hard fan because of the emphasis on changing the feel of the game...

Why chase the "here today - gone tomorrow" fans when the "here always" fans are just as adamant about wanting a better game albeit with a different focus than the fickle football gamer.

I just think some things are common sense. If I were going to ask a question about the passing game's deficiencies - I wouldn't ask a guy that hasn't bought or played the game in 5 years. Alas... the passing system can be vastly improved - we simply don't agree on HOW because guys that haven't played Madden seriously enough to master the mechanics complain about the things they don't know exist.

That's why this conversation is productive and counter-productive at the same time.

Later

Later

[LionsFanNJ]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

There are things that the gamer can do to make the passing game work. However, there are many things that you can't do in the madden passing game that ideally can be improved on EA's end.

For example i refuse to throw a post corner route simply because of the passing window is way too tiny to lead the receiver where you want, and second the arc of the pass nearly every time allows the DB to make plays on the ball they shouldn't.

[RGiles36]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

It has also been productive in determining what parts of the passing interface are off-limits because the Madden faithful, like myself, are unwilling to do without.

None of the passing game should be off limits -- I believe that's part of the reason Cam Weber alluded to the game becoming stale b/c the mechanics have been the same for years. If there's a way to keep the passing game somewhat simplistic, yet allow for a greater variety of throws including back-shoulder passes, I think it's necessary to explore those other options.

If they find that one button passing is stale, yet there isn't a more sound method at the moment, then I'd think it's ok to leave the passing game as status quo.

[TNT713]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

There are things that the gamer can do to make the passing game work. However, there are many things that you can't do in the madden passing game that ideally can be improved on EA's end.

I 100% agree with this portion of your statement. There is a 50/50 relationship between EA and Users.

EA must provide the tools Users need to simulate the NFL - The User must apply the tools EA provides to simulate the NFL.

For example i refuse to throw a post corner route simply because of the passing window is way too tiny to lead the receiver where you want, and second the arc of the pass nearly every time allows the DB to make plays on the ball they shouldn't.

Unfortunately, I don't agree with this part. The post-corner as a very effective play, if you use the tools EA has provided to simulate the NFL. Here's some stuff you can try to make it CRAZY HARD to defend:

1) Individual Pump Fake ***New for Madden 12***

By holding the L2 button, you can pump fake to your receiver to get the DB to bite on the post. Just drop back 5-steps, pump once, then lead the pass up the field near the sideline behind EVERYBODY against Man Cover 1 or Man Cover 2. Anyone facing the QB near that receiver is going to try to jump the route.

2) 7-Step Roll

By merely changing the launch point of the pass a yard or two, you can extend the window. Drop back the same 7 steps, but bend your drop to that it ends behind the tackle or tight end instead of behind the center. This launch point puts you closer to the receiver as he's breaking outside (assuming you roll the same way) leaving less time for the DB to defend the throw. It also enlarges the area where you can put the pass without a DB making a play. The farther you get outside the better your passing angle leading the pass toward the sideline (and the shorter the throw).

I'm sure there are dozens of other ways to use the tools EA has provided to enlarge that window for the post-corner. Try these and I hope this leads you to discover others.

Later

[GiantBlue76]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

A lot of good points made in this thread, but one thing also needs to be considered. I think a lot of the elements of the passing game are in need of improvement as well, but you need to consider the difficulty of making valid counters to the offensive tools. Madden 11 was ridiculously easy to pass. Being someone who strictly plays other users, it was still too easy. Zone coverage was "usable", but was really, really weak. I think that EA will be faced with the challenges of improving the passing game, but at the same time, will need to properly balance the ability to play pass defense. I think there needs to be a fine balance between the emphasis being on play calling AND on user execution. I am a fan of user control, but I am a bigger fan of the mental aspect of it. Calling the right plays and making the right adjustments needs to be a big part of it along with the user control.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

None of the passing game should be off limits -- I believe that's part of the reason Cam Weber alluded to the game becoming stale b/c the mechanics have been the same for years. If there's a way to keep the passing game somewhat simplistic, yet allow for a greater variety of throws including back-shoulder passes, I think it's necessary to explore those other options.

If they find that one button passing is stale, yet there isn't a more sound method at the moment, then I'd think it's ok to leave the passing game as status quo.

Which leads me to my ever pressing question of why can't Madden by designed with as authentic a NFL challenge as possible, then have UI options to control the depth of that challenge?

It would seem unlikely to be able to design an arcade NFL game with simulation options but plausible to design a NFL simulation with arcade options. I can visualize NBA2k adding a mode that plays like NBA Jamz out the box but can't fathom NBA Jamz adding a mode that plays like NBA2k out the box.

[TNT713]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

Which leads me to my ever pressing question of why can't Madden by designed with as authentic a NFL challenge as possible, then have UI options to control the depth of that challenge?

Simple answer to your question... PRO FOOTBALL IS A SKILL LEVEL.

Pro football players aren't playing basketball, baseball, and hockey... It's football, resting from football, or preparing for football 365 days a year. The User Interface Options in real life consist of weight rooms, film rooms, and wind sprints.

Gaming companies cannot duplicate the challenge of their respective sports within a video game and still sell copies... NO ONE WOULD BUY IT. They'd opt for the game they can quailfy to play over the one that demanded PRO LEVEL DEDICATION.

Madden is a prime example. If you play all year and aren't sidetracked by other sports - your experience will be a better SIM experience that someone who plays every sport. That's MY experience at least.

Later

[Big FN Deal]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

Simple answer to your question... PRO FOOTBALL IS A SKILL LEVEL.
Pro football players aren't playing basketball, baseball, and hockey... It's football, resting from football, or preparing for football 365 days a year. The User Interface Options in real life consist of weight rooms, film rooms, and wind sprints.

Gaming companies cannot duplicate the challenge of their respective sports within a video game and still sell copies... NO ONE WOULD BUY IT. They'd opt for the game they can quailfy to play over the one that demanded PRO LEVEL DEDICATION.

Madden is a prime example. If you play all year and aren't sidetracked by other sports - your experience will be a better SIM experience that someone who plays every sport. That's MY experience at least.

Later

I don't understand why you think no one would buy a video game designed to provide as authentic a NFL challenge AS POSSIBLE but has options to tailor that challenge to fit personal preferences. That's not demanding anyone do anything except adjust the game to their personal level of dedication through User customization and/or factory modes.

[Broncos86]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

For a thread that is supposed to be talking about fixing the passing mechanics of Madden/NCAA, it sure has veered off course.

[TNT713]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

I don't understand why you think no one would buy a video game designed to provide as authentic a NFL challenge AS POSSIBLE but has options to tailor that challenge to fit personal preferences. That's not demanding anyone do anything except adjust the game to their personal level of dedication through User customization and/or factory modes.

Let's get this straight, you want as close to an NFL experience as possible as long as it doesn't require any responsibility on the user's part to learn how to use the tools EA has provided - Say it ain't so.

The challenge that is the NFL challenge can't be found in a box. The CPU cannot deliver the illusion of a human opponent's decision making process taking your every move into account - never will. It takes a computer like Watson just to play chess that way, don't expect your PS3/360 processor to perform the same (and don't hold your breath either).

The NFL challenge comes from facing playing human opponents. Not just any human opponents, the best human opponents. Better players = NFL Challenge. There are no scrubs in the NFL. You want an NFL challenge? Limit your opponents to the top 1800 Madden players.

Later

[Broncos86]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

Actually, it took Deep Blue to beat a chess champion. The atari 2600 could play chess. Just sayin'. But nevertheless, TNT's point of view basically ignores history. What Madden is today wasn't even a gleam in the eye of the original Madden design. The team didn't think 11 on 11 was possible. When I played "John Madden Football" on my SNES, I never dreamed that I'd be able to do what I can today. And then I played Gameday on playstation and was blown away when I was flagged for a late hit!

Just because you can't dream it doesn't mean it isn't possible. The Madden franchise has gone from "11 on 11 isn't possible" to today. If you think AI can't imitate defenses, you're underestimating the industry.

And lastly: playing Madden online versus is not the NFL experience: it's the Madden tournament experience. It just boils down to the stupid "scrubs vs pros" point of view, which I think is ridiculous. There's no reason a person who plays offline franchise exclusively, of moderate game skill level, cannot feel as if he's experiencing the NFL in an authenticate fashion.

[TNT713]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

Actually, it took Deep Blue to beat a chess champion. The atari 2600 could play chess. Just sayin'. But nevertheless, TNT's point of view basically ignores history. What Madden is today wasn't even a gleam in the eye of the original Madden design. The team didn't think 11 on 11 was possible. When I played "John Madden Football" on my SNES, I never dreamed that I'd be able to do what I can today. And then I played Gameday on playstation and was blown away when I was flagged for a late hit!

Just because you can't dream it doesn't mean it isn't possible. The Madden franchise has gone from "11 on 11 isn't possible" to today. If you think AI can't imitate defenses, you're underestimating the industry.

And lastly: playing Madden online versus is not the NFL experience: it's the Madden tournament experience. It just boils down to the stupid "scrubs vs pros" point of view, which I think is ridiculous. There's no reason a person who plays offline franchise exclusively, of moderate game skill level, cannot feel as if he's experiencing the NFL in an authenticate fashion.

Deep Blue, Watson... Heavy Duty enough that the average joe won't have one. That said, I have no doubt that programmers can create a rudimentary engine capable of making rudimentary football decisions. But it can't create the organic feel of a human being thinking and reacting to every play both as an individual play and as a group of plays that make up an entire game.

Lastly, my assertion that opponents must be limited to the top 1800 players to simulate the NFL experience didn't indicate any particular mode of play. Online, Offline, Franchise, or Superstar... Doesn't matter. NFL players play the best football players on the planet. For the NFL experience, so should we. Find the best 1800 Offline Franchise players and if they are your opponents, you will have an NFL experience.

Otherwise, you're just playing a video game.

Later

[N51_rob]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

Another "issue" with the passing game that really chaps my ***. (I also will have video of this for reference.) I call a play with my outside WR running a deep (10 yards+) dig route (with an outside break). He is suppose to break off his route about 1 yard deep in the endzone. At the snap I see the DB in cover 3 with his leverage inside. I'm thinking this works out perfect, so as I check the middle crossing route (no good) I come back to the deep dig. I am anticipating my receiver breaking off the vertical route and coming back to the ball seeing how he is a step into the endzone so I throw the ball to him, expecting him to come back to the open area underneath the coverage. He never breaks off his route and keeps going upfield, so my throw goes up the field and into the arms of the CB playing cover 3.

This situation is the one that really bugs the hell out of me. I am expecting the receiver to do one thing, and he never does. It wasn't an option route, there was no HFA as we were the home team. It was Kevin Walters of the Texans. It's one thing if I make a bad throw/read and force a ball into coverage. I can accept that, it is another when I am doing what I am suppose to and reading the defense and anticipating (there's that word again) something to happen and it doesn't. QB's are not looking at receivers running routes in "real" football, they are reading the defense and making decisions based on what the coverage is doing vs their called play. There are numerous times where Madden wants you to look at your receiver not the defense to make a throw.

Like I said, when I finish editing the video I will share it with the thread, so it's not just words, but actual evidence. Might be tomorrow.

[Broncos86]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

Otherwise, you're just playing a video game.

Later

Man, it doesn't matter who you play. You're always just playing a video game. Being the #1 Madden gamer in the world just means you're #1 at a video game.