There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

[KBLover]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

5) When a corner runs the route before the receiver, it's called - GOOD COVERAGE. On Sunday's we've seen several players run the route before the receiver. Ladarius Webb picked off a pass in the Divisional round against Houston of the playoffs last week where he ran the route better than the receiver. In the NFL, the QB's typically look elsewhere when the coverage is that good. In Madden, people throw it anyway then complain that they threw into coverage the only way that makes them feel good about a stupid mistake - blame the game and call it "psychic DB."

I found videos (NFL.com) of both of those INTs and don't think they fall under the DB running the route before the receiver.

On the INT where he had underneath coverage (with Reed over the top) it was just a bad decision and Webb was running man coverage underneath. Walter did not beat Webb, but Webb wasn't running the post before Walter did.

On the INT where he picked off the pass intended for Andre Johnson, he anticipated and was right. However, he was not running Andre Johnson's route. He was watching him in man coverage and when he got whatever key he was looking for, he went straight for the spot the ball would likely be. He didn't run the out route before Andre did, he read "Out" and then got to where Andre needed to go.

Running the route before the WR seems like a "Madden shortcut" for the kind of anticipation Webb showed (Webb would have a step on the WR and run/complete the route before Andre Johnson). I agree, you need to go elsewhere with that pass, but it's not representing real coverage, imo. To represent what Webb did, he would need to go to the spot the ball would be delivered, that's what Webb did, not have a step on a WR as he runs his route.

[TNT713]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

On the INT where he picked off the pass intended for Andre Johnson, he anticipated and was right. However, he was not running Andre Johnson's route. He was watching him in man coverage and when he got whatever key he was looking for, he went straight for the spot the ball would likely be. He didn't run the out route before Andre did, he read "Out" and then got to where Andre needed to go.

Running the route before the WR seems like a "Madden shortcut" for the kind of anticipation Webb showed (Webb would have a step on the WR and run/complete the route before Andre Johnson). I agree, you need to go elsewhere with that pass, but it's not representing real coverage, imo.

This is the one I was referring to...

In Madden, guys turn their backs, run stride for stride, and cut before the receiver sometimes. In real life, defenders play more coverages than Madden allows us to play - but good coverage is good coverage and bad decisions are bad decisions, virtual or otherwise.

Whether the DB runs the route before the receiver OR he is in great position to read his key - a bad decision is a bad decision. And I'll ALWAYS contend that "Psychic DB" is merely angry slang for "A pass that shouldn't have been thrown."

Later

[KBLover]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

Whether the DB runs the route before the receiver OR he is in great position to read his key - a bad decision is a bad decision. And I'll ALWAYS contend that "Psychic DB" is merely angry slang for "A pass that shouldn't have been thrown."

I agree that it's a pass that shouldn't be thrown.

However, the mechanics of it in the game are wrong. Both the user decision AND the game mechanics can be wrong, imo, and in this case, I think that's what's happening.

DBs in the game should always read keys or have to be able to keep close man coverage - but never ever run the route before the WR.

Plus, it's more than just a semantic issue.

Running the route before the WR does is being psychic (how else can the DB know what the WR is going to do that far in advance?). Reading a key and going to where the ball would likely be is anticipation. That would play out completely different graphically in the game and would be something you could trust your eyes to see as long as you don't pre-determine your throw and would be representing the real game.

Also, defenders have the chance to be wrong. Take an option route - if the DB reads out and makes his move, but the receiver has the option to go in, he could see what the DB is doing, and adjust his own route to the in cut, leaving the DB behind and getting a completion. Receivers with good AWR, RTE, and AGI would get more seperation and do this while still defining the route to the QB (so the QB can also anticipate and lead the WR to safety with the ball). In addition, you could set up defenders, giving your WRs a chance to sell one move and then break of it (you know, what the commentary says, except it really happening). With running the route before the WR, the DB is NEVER wrong, which is also unrealistic. You can't set up defenders because they will run the break before the WR. PRC should be reading keys and going to the ball spot (which also could create "baiting" throws like some DBs do).

I understand your viewpoint - you feel Users should take the blame for poor decisions. I think that should be balanced by pointing out bad mechanics in Madden where applicable. Pass coverage is one of those instances, imo.

[TNT713]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

@KB

You make some good points about how the "psychic DB" is never wrong and agree that pointing out discrepancies in coverage technique has a place...

But by that same token, the DB isn't always psychic. Throwing the ball when he is 'psychic' means someone made a BAD READ - which translates to the real game even if the coverage technique does not seem authentic. A good football decision is also a good Madden decision...

IMO, it's best to condition users to perfect their decision making process regardless of whether the game perfectly models football coverage techniques or not. If Madden 13 PERFECTLY DUPLICATES coverage, guys that make poor decisions to throw into coverage will still be making bad decisions and throwing into coverage - except they won't have the game to blame anymore...

The way I see it, the user is ALWAYS more of a factor in what happens in an individual play/game than EA because the devs aren't the reason our reads are bad.

Later

[GiantBlue76]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

KB and TNT, both of you make good points here. I don't mind the route mirroring TOO much, but what I do hate are the following:

1. Warping - it happens to both the offensive and defensive player at times. IF the defender is beat by 3-4 yards, he will warp in front at the last minute or the receiver will stop his route so the defender can get it. I realize it's just a game and it's a dice roll that happens, but it greatly affects how you make a read and it's very frustrating. I threw a slant route yesterday in which Hakeem Nicks was in the slot and he beat the back easily off the line. As soon as I threw it he just stopped and went into that silly hunching over animation and the DB warped 5 yards forward to knock it down. Really? If the dice roll is such that Nicks "lost" then just have him be covered. Don't warp the player in front.

2. Routes that require timing - It's really hard to know whether or not the defender is going to make a play on the ball or not. Warping is a big problem for these (curls, comebacks, etc.). These routes are timing based. There are times when the corner is clearly running a deep zone and you throw the curl and he will magically stop and warp in front. Comebacks are really tough, because you need great pass protection since the routes take a long time to develop. That's fine, but it makes it very hard to make the right read when you see the receiver with separation and you suddenly throw it and the defender warps in front to make the play.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

Since bad User decisions and poor game mechanics are being discussed, let's talk about how these outcomes are potentially being decided.

I hope people remember that Backtrack feature in Madden 09 where Collinsworth would breakdown the play, discuss where the ball should have been thrown and a success percentage graphic would be shown. Now maybe all that was just cosmetic and the percentage or what he was stating actually had nothing to with the play. However, it does present an interesting situation where if the game can calculate which target has the best chance of making the catch, is that what's causing those outcomes that seem disjointed from the animations.

Also, why wouldn't that system be set to calculate those percentages based on where the players are in relation to each other too, not just calculating how successful a certain offensive playcall and personnel are against a certain defensive playcall and personnel?

I don't know enough about programming to suggest how this should be done but it makes me wonder, if a system like this in working "under the hood" why doesn't it prevent things like shallow LB's knocking down deep passes, one hand interceptions by inept players, unrealistic runs against an optimum defensive call, etc?

[N51_rob]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

KB and TNT, both of you make good points here. I don't mind the route mirroring TOO much, but what I do hate are the following:

2. Routes that require timing - It's really hard to know whether or not the defender is going to make a play on the ball or not. Warping is a big problem for these (curls, comebacks, etc.). These routes are timing based. There are times when the corner is clearly running a deep zone and you throw the curl and he will magically stop and warp in front. Comebacks are really tough, because you need great pass protection since the routes take a long time to develop. That's fine, but it makes it very hard to make the right read when you see the receiver with separation and you suddenly throw it and the defender warps in front to make the play.

This annoys me to no end. There are some routes that are timing based routes, the problem with most of them in madden is there is no timing. If you throw a hitch/curl route before the receiver has started his animation the route becomes vertical go route. If you throw an out or dig, before the receiver has made his break, the ball will be delivered right on their instep not out where they can run to the ball, which if you watch football, is not right at all.

[TNT713]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

KB and TNT, both of you make good points here. I don't mind the route mirroring TOO much, but what I do hate are the following:

1. Warping - it happens to both the offensive and defensive player at times. IF the defender is beat by 3-4 yards, he will warp in front at the last minute or the receiver will stop his route so the defender can get it. I realize it's just a game and it's a dice roll that happens, but it greatly affects how you make a read and it's very frustrating. I threw a slant route yesterday in which Hakeem Nicks was in the slot and he beat the back easily off the line. As soon as I threw it he just stopped and went into that silly hunching over animation and the DB warped 5 yards forward to knock it down. Really? If the dice roll is such that Nicks "lost" then just have him be covered. Don't warp the player in front.

2. Routes that require timing - It's really hard to know whether or not the defender is going to make a play on the ball or not. Warping is a big problem for these (curls, comebacks, etc.). These routes are timing based. There are times when the corner is clearly running a deep zone and you throw the curl and he will magically stop and warp in front. Comebacks are really tough, because you need great pass protection since the routes take a long time to develop. That's fine, but it makes it very hard to make the right read when you see the receiver with separation and you suddenly throw it and the defender warps in front to make the play.

I hear what you're saying... There are aspects of passing in Madden that I dislike as well (who knew?). I'm just not always in agreement with the terms we use to describe them.

To me, warping suggests that a player increases speed exponentially to get into position, which is an issue in Madden sometimes... But it happens on both sides of the ball - particularly on routes where the receivers move horizontally to catch a touch pass. Warping in this sense doesn't bother me as much as others because the phenomenon is short lived... Never more than 2 accelerated steps - but at least their feet move.

Sliding bothers me more than warping because the feet remain stationary, but nothing bothers me as much as when one player moves through another.

I was playing a game once where an opponent's pass was thrown to a receiver with position underneath the safety only for the safety to PHASE through the receiver to make the catch... I won the game because of the INT and subsequent score, but I didn't feel good about it and both my opponent and I recognized the error and agreed that it was a bogus pick (but I wasn't giving him the ball back...lol).

Regarding #2, I'll touch on it later in the post.

Since bad User decisions and poor game mechanics are being discussed, let's talk about how these outcomes are potentially being decided.

I hope people remember that Backtrack feature in Madden 09 where Collinsworth would breakdown the play, discuss where the ball should have been thrown and a success percentage graphic would be shown. Now maybe all that was just cosmetic and the percentage or what he was stating actually had nothing to with the play. However, it does present an interesting situation where if the game can calculate which target has the best chance of making the catch, is that what's causing those outcomes that seem disjointed from the animations.

Also, why wouldn't that system be set to calculate those percentages based on where the players are in relation to each other too, not just calculating how successful a certain offensive playcall and personnel are against a certain defensive playcall and personnel?

I don't know enough about programming to suggest how this should be done but it makes me wonder, if a system like this in working "under the hood" why doesn't it prevent things like shallow LB's knocking down deep passes, one hand interceptions by inept players, unrealistic runs against an optimum defensive call, etc?

I remember Backtrack as a good teaching tool that provided a guideline for making better decisions, but the percentage for which a play is effective against another play isn't as simple as it seems to be. In my travels, I find that there are many players who under-analyze and many who over-analyze - each tend to put the onus on EA. Very few that have a balanced analysis that points to the user's ability to use the tools EA provides.

Knowing that I have a 75% chance to beat a particular defense with a certain play doesn't actually imply why it won't work 25% of the time. For that we can't rely solely on the information provided in the game's analysis... We have to go further than that - but not so far that we blame the game with the probabilities the game suggests don't match our actual performance.

This annoys me to no end. There are some routes that are timing based routes, the problem with most of them in madden is there is no timing. If you throw a hitch/curl route before the receiver has started his animation the route becomes vertical go route. If you throw an out or dig, before the receiver has made his break, the ball will be delivered right on their instep not out where they can run to the ball, which if you watch football, is not right at all.

Now to address #2 from Taz and N51.

Timing is uber-important in the Madden passing game. I've been a fan of the West Coast offense since the 49ers ran it in the late 80's. When I started playing Madden I wanted to duplicate the WC, but I knew very little about the offense and how it should be run...

After Madden '03, I bought a book called "The West Coast Offense" written by two coaches (Dave Henderson and another guy). As I learned how the WC should be run, I realized I'd been doing it wrong for more than a decade. :O

To run it right, I had to rebuild my offense from scratch, starting with my QB's drop. I practiced NOTHING but dropping back for about an hour... 3, 5, and 7 steps while counting each step aloud. This simple task changed my offense and made me 10x more dangerous because I was finally able to synchronize my QB's drop depth with my receivers routes... But it was only the beginning.

The next step became delivering the pass in a manner that 'fit' the route/QB drop synchronization. I found that if I threw on time, but threw too hard, the ball arrived too quickly. Likewise, if I threw on time and threw too soft, the ball arrived too late. During this process I discovered that ALL OF THESE FACTORS MATTER.

If I throw a pass to a receiver in his stem, the ball can still be delivered in a manner so that the receiver runs the route EVEN when the throw is released before the receiver cuts. Likewise, a pass can be delivered so the receiver to continues on his stem and runs the streak instead.

That said, some routes simply don't follow this principle. I avoid those routes. In Madden 10, I enjoyed the comeback routes N51 mentioned because the DB continued upfield when the WR turned outside. The pass was easy to deliver outside, short, and away from the defender. Here's the annoying part for me... Madden 11 comeback routes did not get the same separation nor did the QB deliver the ball short and outside. All 5 of the comeback routes I threw in Madden 11 got picked off.

I still practice comeback routes, but needless to say, I haven't run a single designed comeback in a game since pick #5 in Madden 11. But it's not because the route doesn't work - I've had them thrown successfully against my defense on more occasions than I like to admit. But I, as an individual user, have not mastered delivering the pass to this route either in practice so I don't feel comfortable using it in a game.

Ultimately, the timing of pass plays requires practice and precision that most of us don't take time to learn because we already think we know how it should be done.

Later

[KBLover]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

I hope people remember that Backtrack feature in Madden 09 where Collinsworth would breakdown the play, discuss where the ball should have been thrown and a success percentage graphic would be shown. Now maybe all that was just cosmetic and the percentage or what he was stating actually had nothing to with the play. However, it does present an interesting situation where if the game can calculate which target has the best chance of making the catch, is that what's causing those outcomes that seem disjointed from the animations.

Also, why wouldn't that system be set to calculate those percentages based on where the players are in relation to each other too, not just calculating how successful a certain offensive playcall and personnel are against a certain defensive playcall and personnel?

Probably because it's another short cut. I wouldn't be surprised if Play A vs Play B sets base % chances of events. Then various things like whatever the user(s) do(es), the timing of button presses, etc, influence (if not override) these percentages to give the feel of user control/rewarding the user.

It's almost like a text sim - except a text sim has no way to (easily) do it any other way.

I don't know enough about programming to suggest how this should be done but it makes me wonder, if a system like this in working "under the hood" why doesn't it prevent things like shallow LB's knocking down deep passes, one hand interceptions by inept players, unrealistic runs against an optimum defensive call, etc?

I imagine it as using die rolls at each step of the play. Instead of all in one fell swoop, which leads to morphing and stuff to make the graphics conform to the die roll, calculate it piece by piece with checks for "zone of control" type things.

Then if there's no defender who's zone of control (which varies based on ratings) intersects the ball, then no defender can make a play. If there's three defenders - then those three get to roll against their ratings or such to make the play - or the offense gets insanely lucky and the pass is complete anyway.

Should also work on decisions for CPU players, modified (determined?) by traits for what action and then ratings for success of action. So if a DB with low CTH and JMP tried to get aggressive, he'd miss a vast majority of the time and burn his team while a conservative guy wouldn't even make that decision 9 times in 10.

I think that would go towards what you describe, probabilities that work based on position and space as to who has a chance at what plays and how likely they are to make them.

[baller7345]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

That said, some routes simply don't follow this principle. I avoid those routes. In Madden 10, I enjoyed the comeback routes N51 mentioned because the DB continued upfield when the WR turned outside. The pass was easy to deliver outside, short, and away from the defender. Here's the annoying part for me... Madden 11 comeback routes did not get the same separation nor did the QB deliver the ball short and outside. All 5 of the comeback routes I threw in Madden 11 got picked off.

I still practice comeback routes, but needless to say, I haven't run a single designed comeback in a game since pick #5 in Madden 11. But it's not because the route doesn't work - I've had them thrown successfully against my defense on more occasions than I like to admit. But I, as an individual user, have not mastered delivering the pass to this route either in practice so I don't feel comfortable using it in a game.

Ultimately, the timing of pass plays requires practice and precision that most of us don't take time to learn because we already think we know how it should be done.

Later

If you are talking about the deep 15 yard comebacks they are much improved this year. The route is ran much smoother and the throw is delivered much better. There are two plays out of GB's book both called Packer's Comebacks that have 2 of these and a Post over the middle and those are some of my favorite plays for beating man coverage and cover 3. Now it can go catastrophically wrong if you time it wrong as the WR will finish the comeback route only to have your pass fly 40 yards downfield but the timing doesn't take all that long to figure out (although changing WR's mid game can lead to some issues if they don't have similar speeds). The comebacks really allow good route running WR's to shine this year. As long as you user catch them they are perfectly safe against even the best CB's. I just finished a game where I threw a grand total of 8 of them 5 to Nelson and 3 to Jennings (my opponent refused to leave 2 man under). He was the Eagles so it wasn't like his CB's were slouches.

[Broncos86]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

You can't always apply actual football to Madden, for the simple fact that aspects that work in life do not work in Madden. That's because factors that exist in life don't exist in Madden. This fact has nothing to do with skill level of any kind. The reaction time of linebackers is not up for debate really. Elite athletes or not, in Madden and even NCAA, players are poor as 40 OVR react with lightning reflexes. There's a problem when a linebacker can react and swat down a ball that's been thrown 3 yards away from him and within UNDER one second he's able to cover those 3 yards and make a play on it. Not just get finger tips on it, I'm talking two palms.

When cornerbacks are capable of just stopping (no, not canceling momentum and beating a route, I mean just STOPPING) and turning around immediately to beat a curl route, there are issues. These are not subjective opinions. These are measurable and real. Last year, there was a thread about super linebackers being back, and I posted 4 videos that demonstrated how, in the NFL linebackers reacted to throws around them and over them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0Ydz7QlDGQ&feature=player_detailpage#t=67s

This is a great example. In Madden/NCAA, the LB picks that ball off or cleanly swats it down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0Ydz7QlDGQ&feature=player_detailpage#t=13s

That throw, over a LB, is nearly impossible in Madden.

I loved backtrack because I used it as the "oh BS!" tool. When I saw utter crap happen (like players phasing through each other), I backtracked it to cancel it out. It just drove me nuts to see it. Madden 09 REALLY needed it.

[KBLover]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

The reaction time of linebackers is not up for debate really. Elite athletes or not, in Madden and even NCAA, players are poor as 40 OVR react with lightning reflexes.

Yeah, the differentiation of ability of non-physical skills is lacking in a lot of places, imo. I don't know anything about NCAA - never played one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0Ydz7QlDGQ&feature=player_detailpage#t=67s

This is a great example. In Madden/NCAA, the LB picks that ball off or cleanly swats it down.

Actually, the defender reacted very quickly. He just couldn't jump up high enough/exact time to tip the pass - that, imo, is a pass trajectory issue more than a too-fast-reactions issue.

He really didn't have time to really get his jump, he could only make a quick "hop" to try to tip the pass (probably a pass velocity issue too). If you notice, he had nearly perfect timing (if he could have gotten high enough, it would have been tipped, so I don't think it's a reaction issue), it's a jump height/pass trajectory scale issue, imo.

LBs react too slow, imo, a lot of times, actually. Under a certain reaction slider, they'll literally watch a ball carrier go by. Literally.

I loved backtrack because I used it as the "oh BS!" tool. When I saw utter crap happen (like players phasing through each other), I backtracked it to cancel it out. It just drove me nuts to see it. Madden 09 REALLY needed it.

I had to limit myself with it. I used it like challenges, I gave myself 2 per game. Otherwise, I might never have gotten through a game of M09...

[Broncos86]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

Actually, the defender reacted very quickly. He just couldn't jump up high enough/exact time to tip the pass - that, imo, is a pass trajectory issue more than a too-fast-reactions issue.

He really didn't have time to really get his jump, he could only make a quick "hop" to try to tip the pass (probably a pass velocity issue too). If you notice, he had nearly perfect timing (if he could have gotten high enough, it would have been tipped, so I don't think it's a reaction issue), it's a jump height/pass trajectory scale issue, imo.

Part of my argument has been not just when a LB reacts, but what kind of reaction. As you noted, he didn't have time to really react, he could only get a quick hop in. In Madden, the LB would get a max vertical leap before the ball even gets to him.

It's kind of like if someone were to just throw a ball at your face right when you walked into the room and you weren't expecting it. You may react quickly, but only with aligator arms, or just enough to maybe deflect the ball. If a Madden football player was in that same situation, he'd catch the ball as if he knew it was coming and where it was going.

[KBLover]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

Part of my argument has been not just when a LB reacts, but what kind of reaction. As you noted, he didn't have time to really react, he could only get a quick hop in. In Madden, the LB would get a max vertical leap before the ball even gets to him.

It's kind of like if someone were to just throw a ball at your face right when you walked into the room and you weren't expecting it. You may react quickly, but only with aligator arms, or just enough to maybe deflect the ball. If a Madden football player was in that same situation, he'd catch the ball as if he knew it was coming and where it was going.

Yeah, probably input reading (it's reacting to your button press instead of what's happening on the field). Once the button is pushed, all defenders know to "get ready for the pass". So it would be like if that LB in the video was already getting ready to jump before Manning starts to windup (and he knew that Manning wasn't throwing to the HB underneath).

You can't confuse defenders (which also would slow reactions). Running someone underneath should have the LB thinking "he might go there" all the way until the ball actually flies.

I do think if passes had more velocity on them, it would also help. Just seems like any pass that's not a bullet pass just goes too slowly. Strong armed QBs should FIRE the ball in there with any trajectory except the most touch of passes (like fades and similar).

What's really funny about this is that you can actually "alligator arm" your own receivers. I tend to do this too often to my HB/FB in flat - throw it too hard and it hits him on the side of the helmet while he's turning around.

[TNT713]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

You can't always apply actual football to Madden, for the simple fact that aspects that work in life do not work in Madden. That's because factors that exist in life don't exist in Madden. This fact has nothing to do with skill level of any kind. The reaction time of linebackers is not up for debate really. Elite athletes or not, in Madden and even NCAA, players are poor as 40 OVR react with lightning reflexes. There's a problem when a linebacker can react and swat down a ball that's been thrown 3 yards away from him and within UNDER one second he's able to cover those 3 yards and make a play on it. Not just get finger tips on it, I'm talking two palms.

When cornerbacks are capable of just stopping (no, not canceling momentum and beating a route, I mean just STOPPING) and turning around immediately to beat a curl route, there are issues. These are not subjective opinions. These are measurable and real. Last year, there was a thread about super linebackers being back, and I posted 4 videos that demonstrated how, in the NFL linebackers reacted to throws around them and over them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0Ydz7QlDGQ&feature=player_detailpage#t=67s

This is a great example. In Madden/NCAA, the LB picks that ball off or cleanly swats it down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0Ydz7QlDGQ&feature=player_detailpage#t=13s

That throw, over a LB, is nearly impossible in Madden.

I loved backtrack because I used it as the "oh BS!" tool. When I saw utter crap happen (like players phasing through each other), I backtracked it to cancel it out. It just drove me nuts to see it. Madden 09 REALLY needed it.

A few things... First, I'm faster and more agile than most 38 year olds and have a technique that allows me to make an instant 180 degree turn from a full speed run. I simply run fast and plant my lead foot while drop my center into a lunge as I torque my body to come out running in the opposite direction. First time I did it, I was being chased by someone with equivalent speed. When he reached out his hand to grab me, I dropped and turned. When I looked back, he was still rolling. That said, I have the body mass of a wad of paper (less than 150lbs) so take it for what it's worth. LOL

And BackTrack shouldn't be confused with Rewind. Backtrack was a feature that replayed the previous play with telestration and commentary to break down the previous play while Rewind allowed you to actually erase and replay the down. IIRC, Backtrack was only available for one year of Madden while Rewind was available for 2.

BUT... The pass Peyton threw to Collie is possible in Madden. But just like real life, it's not easy. It takes skill to get the ball up and down like Peyton threw it on Madden - but it is possible.

I think part of the issue is that we assume the circle is the best place to catch the ball because when Madden debuted on Genesis - that's how the circle indicator was introduced. Since the player models and movements have changed, the circle isn't the best place to catch the ball - it merely represents the point at which the ball is even with a receiver's numbers. Without this basic information, it is impossible for the USER to locate the ball properly.

Later