There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

[HighCmpPct]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

-The field is either to small or the players are slightly too large. Either way these proportions and balance seem to yield a more congested looking field with less spacing for bad passes to drop in uncaught.

I have never mentioned this on any forum before, but I have felt for years that the field in madden especially horizontally just seemed to small in the passing game.

IDK maybe it just looks that way, but it damn sure looks that way lol!

[HighCmpPct]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

To start:

1) Receivers run the route based on the point in which the pass was thrown. Throw to a receiver running an out route, before he's made his break, and he will end up running a go route to catch the ball.

2) Linebackers react within nanoseconds. The linebacker play is beyond unrealistic. I'm tired of seeing a linebacker react instantly to a pass and proceed to take ONE side step that goes multiple yards, without any consideration for weight, momentum, etc.

5) We need a passing game where cornerbacks aren't running the route before the wide receiver is.

6) Defenders shouldn't be able to instantaneously jump forwards from a back peddle. They should not be able to jump at max vertical from a sprint. They should not be able to change directions, even from a sprint, in under one second.

7) ALL players need a field of vision. I'm tired of seeing defenders in man coverage turn their backs, then IMMEDIATELY turn around and play the receiver I threw to. I understand on-field communication is key to real football, but this instant reflex stuff is too much.

Ok here we go:

1) Nothing to say here totally agree

2) Check out the "edits to fix this game" thread in rosters section eliminates this.

5) Once again "edits to fix this game" thread, you'll see bad dbs slower reaction and occasionally just blown coverages.

6) Same as last two

7) This time check out the "Examing franchises elephant in the room:Coaching schemes" thread, especially the priority sliders for this point.

All right thats all I got. I think you're right on some of your other points, just thought i'd comment on the ones i've fixed in my game.

[KBLover]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

To start:

Read post - snipped for length/ease

1. Agreed - though a FEW routes are route-based, which can make for some confusing mechanics.

2. I disagree to an extent with this. I often pass in the middle (from seam to seam as it's my typical passing attack - I run ins/crosses/posts to TE, etc) as well as some outs where the LBs have buzz zones or are in man against the TE, and while LBs do sometimes make some killer plays, they also let up plays, and I usually keep pass reaction slider high. Heck, I lost a game recently where my LBs were doing little but chase and tackle - i.e. hardly any deflections and were getting worn out from it - which made it worse.

The jumping ability is too much and saw that leaping one-handed INT animation again, which always gets me, especially from a 50-60 CTH/SPC LB.

3) Agreed, receivers do not turn into defenders and that's just messed up. I also agree that receivers don't really get aggressive on a lot of routes. Seems like only on high throws do they get aggressive (as they should, but then in that case the DBs should too, and of all the times for the LBs to not jump up is when they are trying to defend a high pass to a TE...)

4. Yes and no. I agree we need more variance, but I don't agree that it's a complete guessing game - except with a low accuracy QB.

5. I don't see this consistently. In the game I got beat in, Jimmy Smith was trailing his guy constantly. Webb was okay but sometimes got turned around. Pollard? Forget it. He wasn't in the same zip code sometimes. Even Reed screwed up. With my TB franchise (Year 6), my shutdown guy can do this to some extent, but all the others? Not anywhere near consistently. Sometimes they make a good play, sometimes, I'm like...what the heck were you doing? My pass defense got TORCHED in the Super Bowl with this team since everyone but my shutdown guy (who the CPU QB almost ALWAYS avoids) was giving up plays. (lost 38-24)

6. Agreed. Player momentum and footwork needs an increase in impact and importance.

7. At least, they need to look back at the ball. DBs in man coverage should key on the WR for when they look back at the ball, and then they can make a play on it (if it's throw at them, obviously). Otherwise, I agree - DB in man covering a streak shouldn't be able to turn around to come up on the TE running an out when I throw the ball, and I should be able to get that to happen without make them stupid and lazy (low reaction slider). They should be able to play with decisiveness and determination in realistic ways, not having to remove those traits from them.

These are just my views on the games when I play them. I am not try to say you or anyone else are doing anything wrong.

[TNT713]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

To start:

1) Receivers run the route based on the point in which the pass was thrown. Throw to a receiver running an out route, before he's made his break, and he will end up running a go route to catch the ball.

2) Linebackers react within nanoseconds. The linebacker play is beyond unrealistic. I'm tired of seeing a linebacker react instantly to a pass and proceed to take ONE side step that goes multiple yards, without any consideration for weight, momentum, etc.

3) Wide receivers do not fight for the ball. They're content to continue their route to meet with the ball w/o taking into consideration that a defender is cutting their route. To hear Herbstreit say "that receiver needs to play defense in that situation" just makes me chuckle, because that's not possible.

4) Ball trajectory is a guessing game. We need to be able to see how ball trajectory truly works with the controller. We need more variance on ball speed and trajectory.

5) We need a passing game where cornerbacks aren't running the route before the wide receiver is.

6) Defenders shouldn't be able to instantaneously jump forwards from a back peddle. They should not be able to jump at max vertical from a sprint. They should not be able to change directions, even from a sprint, in under one second.

7) ALL players need a field of vision. I'm tired of seeing defenders in man coverage turn their backs, then IMMEDIATELY turn around and play the receiver I threw to. I understand on-field communication is key to real football, but this instant reflex stuff is too much.

The passing game is antiquated and old. And I personally believe the dev team knows this. It's one of the last relics of the pre-M10 regime that has received almost no attention. There was a smidgen of love in Madden 10 with regard to ball flight, etc.

Broncos,

It seems you have been listening to the hype about the Madden passing interface from people who do what I call 'HALF PLAY.' So I'll address your points one by one...

1) Receivers REACT to where the ball is thrown moreso than the ball is thrown where the receiver is running. If you throw a ball to a receiver making an out route before he makes his cut one of a few things will happen:

- The QB delivers the pass to the location the receiver SHOULD make his break and the WR runs the proper route as it's drawn up.
- The QB sight adjusts the pass to deliver it up the route stem instead of throwing it for the out route and the receiver adjusts with him because they are 'on the same page.'
- The QB delivers the ball to the stem of the route, but the receiver isn't on the same page and runs the out route.

Rarely, if ever, does the QB deliver the ball to the route while the receiver continues to run along the route stem.

2) Linebackers react in nano-seconds. If they don't, they don't get on the field. Show me a linebacker that has a slow reaction time and I'll show you a guy that wear street clothes on Sundays. Show me a guy that can't change direction and I'll show you a guy who watches the game on TV - just like us.

YES - the animations could use some work. Sometimes linebackers slide step, but they don't slide more than a yard or two... 1-2 yards is easily within an NFL linebacker's range.

3) Wide receivers don't fight for the ball automatically. But if you switch to the receiver you can cut underneath the defender or even swat a pass that might be intercepted. The only people that complain about the WR not fighting for the ball are the ones that don't use the USER control that has been part of Madden since the beginning to fight for the ball...

4) Ball trajectory is NOT A GUESSING GAME. It is a game of precision manipulation of button pressure, stick action, and timing. If you're adept at user control - you can FEEL a bad pass as soon as you throw it. At which point, the user control from #3 comes in really handy.

5) When a corner runs the route before the receiver, it's called - GOOD COVERAGE. On Sunday's we've seen several players run the route before the receiver. Ladarius Webb picked off a pass in the Divisional round against Houston of the playoffs last week where he ran the route better than the receiver. In the NFL, the QB's typically look elsewhere when the coverage is that good. In Madden, people throw it anyway then complain that they threw into coverage the only way that makes them feel good about a stupid mistake - blame the game and call it "psychic DB."

6) Defenders in the NFL are some of the most agile people on the planet. Show me a DB that can't change direction in 1 or 2 steps and I'll show you a guy that doesn't make it through training camp. I'm not sure what your sliders are set to (mine are all defaults), but DB's don't get maximum leaps from a full-sprint. Max leaps require a slight slow down and a strafe (either by stick or trigger button).

7) Here we agree... All players need a field of vision of at least 135 degrees without a helmet. This would make them average Joe's. With their helmet, they should lose about somewhere between 15-30 degrees from this range of motion.

That said, defenders aren't always looking at the ball when they make a play. Defenders are taught to react to the receivers hands when they have their back turned to the QB. When the WR reaches out, the DB should try to put a hand between the WR's hands. This is one of the reasons WR's are taught NOT TO REACH for the ball until the last moment AND one of the reasons you see DB's make plays on balls in real life even though they never see the pass coming.

I agree the passing system is old and simple. But it's GREATNESS is in it's simplicity. We could teach a 5-year old how to throw passes in a matter of minutes - but it will require years for him to master the system enough to know exactly when to press the button, how hard to press it, how long to hold it, and how to use the stick to place them on every route. Even more work would be needed to complete these passes against the plethora of coverages he is likely to see.

All in all, there's nothing wrong with the passing system that some practice on the part of the user can't fix.

The question is, whether the users care to practice or not. Apparently, most of them have better things to do.

Later

[steelersfan77]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

I think I'm more or less on the fence when it comes to everything Madden and NCAA for that matter. I have no problem giving EA sports my money. I do it for damn near every game EA and many other companies produce. I don't know if it's a love for a video game or if I just love spending my hard earned cash. Either way I've never been strapped.

Saying that.

Out of every simulation sports video game I own by far Madden and NCAA gives the worst representation. I can't think of one other game I own where I can sit there and say, man, that would never happen in real life when it comes to animations, monmentum and physics. Sure the other simulation games have there problems but I think where Madden and NCAA have fallen really short is realism in gameplay. There's authenticism in the game but it's not on the virtual field.

Peace.

[PacMan3000]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

The passing game is definitely messed up, but how many of you guys used the wide camera angle? I just switched to it for the first time tonight, and it made a huge difference for me. I could see passing lanes open up better, the game seemed to slow down a bit despite me not changing the game speed, and I felt I had a better capability of seeing and feeling the blitz and picking the holes on defense to hit a WR right out of his break.

[Broncos86]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

TNT, I respect you so much that I can't find myself to go point-for-point with you (I'd also rather play my NCAA 12 dynasty Edit: LOL. SDSU has a FB doing kickoffs). You make some great points I agree with, some I don't. But, all good stuff.

[unfriendlyghst]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

If I'm not mistaken I do believe that madden 12 was the first to have the correct ball size this generation. Also necks were developed to separate the helmets from the shoulders. It's a shame that it's taken this long to get such minor details correct but hopefully they're moving in the right direction.

[SportsGuy53]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

Ok, I hope I dont get in trouble for this.. But, it there any thing EA could look at and learn from 2k5 or 2k8 good or bad?

[Big FN Deal]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

Ok, I hope I dont get in trouble for this.. But, it there any thing EA could look at and learn from 2k5 or 2k8 good or bad?

I personally think that ship has sailed and EA is focused on representing the NFL the right way, authentic. I think M10 was an attempt at trying to be more like NFL2k, that for whatever reasons, was deemed unsuccessful. I say this because I remember Ian or somebody around that time stating that they had NFL2k5 playing in the office and I think that was also around the same time Mike Wang from NBA2k was brought in to do the same thing with NBA Live. Like I stated before, I try to watch for business trends to see what may potentially be going on and it seems back then EA was potentially attempting to mimic some of 2k's positives.

All that said, it now seems EA has decided to stop trying to copy other companies or attempting to reinvent the wheel "their way" and is trending towards optimum authenticity for simulating the relative sport, imo. I think this should be a given for creating any simulation to begin with but better late than never. lol

[SportsGuy53]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

I think Madden 12 is the best one yet, but I still see things that bug me. Like the CBs,, they still at times shadow the WRs step for step sometimes even turning left BEFORE the WR turns left..
Ive been following the thread "edits for the game" in the roster section and have tried the "fixes" and they help alot.. Im hoping they will figure a way to fix the passing issues..

[RGiles36]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

I really can't put a finger on what's wrong/missing from the passing game, but I think there's been some great posts in this thread.

I think for me, the biggest thing as others have alluded to is that you can't trust your eyes. You see a defender heading one direction and your receiver another; you make the pass and the defender is able to miraculously make a play on the ball.

It leads to a ridicuolous amont of INTs for the user, even with the slider bumped down to about 35 or so. I'd love to go a franchise season with 16 or less picks, but I'm often up over 20.

I don't often like to compare the NFL games of old. But INTs in other games didn't feel as cheap. Maybe that's a locomotion thing, or maybe other games having animations in place to give you the illusion that the defender just made a play on the ball. While there are several plays that defenders make a play on the ball in Madden, there are certainly plays where you feel the defender shouldn't have had a chance.

----------

While on the subject of the passing game, what happened to the diving catches? I rarely ever see these. I saw one w/ Dez Bryant a few days ago and I nearly dropped the controller. These were blogged about, so why do they occur soooo infrequently?

[baller7345]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

While on the subject of the passing game, what happened to the diving catches? I rarely ever see these. I saw one w/ Dez Bryant a few days ago and I nearly dropped the controller. These were blogged about, so why do they occur soooo infrequently?

Not sure why they rarely ever show up with the A.I. but if you hold X when attempting to catch a ball that is slightly out of reach then your player will make an attempt at a diving catch.

[lofeazy]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

Good thread.

[TNT713]

Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

TNT, I respect you so much that I can't find myself to go point-for-point with you (I'd also rather play my NCAA 12 dynasty Edit: LOL. SDSU has a FB doing kickoffs). You make some great points I agree with, some I don't. But, all good stuff.

The coolest thing about football is the its always debatable because of how we perceive the details. Not just video games - football period. I think that's the beauty of the game.

Part of this debate, IMO, is centered around our individual philosophies about what we enjoy about football and what we expect from a video game simulation of football. Some of us play Madden like it's a game, others play it like it's a sport. The difference being the level of commitment given toward the various aspects of playing...

And I agree - Good stuff and good discussion.

Later