Madden vs Real Football

[Cardot]

Re: Madden vs Real Football

Regarding the slants vs the CPU... The CPU doesn't make adjustments like humans would. The CPU might call the same defense as a human, but it won't adjust that play to take the slants away. A human on the other hand would change the coverage audible to play underneath the slant and take the play away.

I agree. The aggrevating part is that it seems for 15 years we have heard things like "The CPU will pick up on tendencies and adjust etc". Clearly there is still room to grow in this department. It would be one thing if there was an obscure situation that the CPU didn't account for....but slants are about as basic as it gets.

Playing the CPU would be so much more enjoyable if these adjustments were made. I could throw guilt free slants.....AND, that might open up the outside a bit (I have the opposite problem throwing outside the hashes...way too often there are a few defenders camped out there, waiting for the inevitable dumb throw that I will make).

[TNT713]

Re: Madden vs Real Football

I agree. The aggrevating part is that it seems for 15 years we have heard things like "The CPU will pick up on tendencies and adjust etc". Clearly there is still room to grow in this department. It would be one thing if there was an obscure situation that the CPU didn't account for....but slants are about as basic as it gets.

Playing the CPU would be so much more enjoyable if these adjustments were made. I could throw guilt free slants.....AND, that might open up the outside a bit.

My criticism isn't so much that the CPU doesn't adjust. From what I've seen in the few times I've played the CPU is that is actually does adjust - it just doesn't adjust like a human. Not only does it take longer to adjust to the same plays run over and over, but the adjustments it makes don't always feel 'organic' in the football sense.

A CPU that adjusts quicker and more organically would make offline games against the CPU a ton more enjoyable.

Later

[Soprano00]

Re: Madden vs Real Football

I agree. The aggrevating part is that it seems for 15 years we have heard things like "The CPU will pick up on tendencies and adjust etc". Clearly there is still room to grow in this department. It would be one thing if there was an obscure situation that the CPU didn't account for....but slants are about as basic as it gets.

Exactly, is what I read in every online review of M12: repeating the same play over and over this year will not work!

[Soprano00]

Re: Madden vs Real Football

the adjustments it makes don't always feel 'organic' in the football sense.

You see? there's something more to work on Madden to make it more similar to real football, other than firing gamers

[SonOfEd]

Re: Madden vs Real Football

Tracking HUM tendencies would be a sweet move. The only adjusting I really see in EA's games are in seeing them move the Safeties up or down during the game. 2k5's VIP system is pretty cool, as I would see the CPU start to jump on a money route I had found the games before, or attack an area I would blitz from.

[TNT713]

Re: Madden vs Real Football

You see? there's something more to work on Madden to make it more similar to real football, other than firing gamers

I see your point, but I can always find a reason to fire the user.

I play humans to ensure I'm playing an opponent that adjusts organically - but sometimes even humans who know the CPU won't make organic adjustments won't make the football adjustments they wish the CPU would make even though they could... Those guys should be fired. Knowing the right adjustment and failing/refusing to make it is not grounds to hate on the CPU.

Later

[NYwRiter94]

Re: Madden vs Real Football

I didn't read the whole thread, so I apologize if someone on pages 2-6 addressed this already, but everyone on the first page seemed to ignore the fair catches on punts. If anything, that's being more conservative, and is a completely different point.

Kick returns also fall under the same category. In the real NFL, even though they added 5 yards to the kickoff, and guys are receiving the ball deep in their own endzone, they are running it out because they are confident they can return the ball more than 20 yards. Thanks to poor return blocking in Madden, that's nigh impossible, and you're lucky if you even get it to the 20.

As for punts, whenever I punt to the CPU, I am able to control my "gunners" (the players on the outsides) and get to the punt returner as he catches the ball. In Madden (and probably real life too) the likelihood of a fumble if a fair catch is not called is some insanely high number. Because the blocking is terrible and prevents long returns, most people just decide to take what they can get.

[KBLover]

Re: Madden vs Real Football

I see your point, but I can always find a reason to fire the user.

I play humans to ensure I'm playing an opponent that adjusts organically - but sometimes even humans who know the CPU won't make organic adjustments won't make the football adjustments they wish the CPU would make even though they could... Those guys should be fired. Knowing the right adjustment and failing/refusing to make it is not grounds to hate on the CPU.

Later

I see that point, but I think a better solution than attempting to ban players from playing the game they paid for just because they might not be as good as they need to be on it is to have more organic adjustments in Madden to begin with. That sounds more like a win/win for EA/the player (new feature on the back of the box, something new for the player to experiment and use his skill on at the strategic level).

Trying to ban players not because they hacked or glitched or broke some other ToS rule, but because they lost a game or two "more than they should" is just going to open all kinds of cans of worms.

If you use a bad team, say it's your favorite and you want to play with them even though you know they are struggling...shouldn't you lose a lot...that's why...it's a bad team?

[KBLover]

Re: Madden vs Real Football

As for punts, whenever I punt to the CPU, I am able to control my "gunners" (the players on the outsides) and get to the punt returner as he catches the ball. In Madden (and probably real life too) the likelihood of a fumble if a fair catch is not called is some insanely high number. Because the blocking is terrible and prevents long returns, most people just decide to take what they can get.

And if you're playing the CPU, it seems horribly incapable of knowing when to fair catch sometimes. I don't know what causes it (Ratings? Traits? Sliders?) but there's been games where it happened like every punt. I just try to punt it out of bounds every time now because of that since I haven't deciphered what makes this happen sometimes, but not every time.

[elijah53johnston]

Re: Madden vs Real Football

the one problem I have with firing people is you dont have control over your roster like real NFL coaches and GM's do.

[TheNumber35]

Re: Madden vs Real Football

the one problem I have with firing people is you dont have control over your roster like real NFL coaches and GM's do.

That, and the fact that everyone should be able to enjoy the game...no matter their skill level. Just because I'm not a Sean Payton-esque offensive mind or a Rex Ryan type of defensive genius doesn't mean I shouldn't be allowed to enjoy a game with applicable NFL parameters. Let me fail, but let me fail with real NFL concepts and the parameters Big FN outlined. I'd rather suck really bad in a game like he described than succeed in the current version of the game.

[TNT713]

Re: Madden vs Real Football

I think there may be some confusion about what I mean when I say "Fire the User." Personally, I find it hard to discuss the differences between real football and Madden without talking how the consequences for poor performance are incongruous.

If there's no penalty for skipping practices, failing to watch film, prepare for opponents, or any of the things professional teams must do to avoid embarrassment on game day - it's almost impossible to simulate the pro football environment where firings happen all the time for less...

Unfortunately, EA can't fire customers and it only exacerbates the other differences between reality and the virtual world when the least common denominator is allowed to play alongside the most serious players. Of all the things that would never happen in the NFL, having players consistently perform poorly and maintain their position is the most important and most overlooked.

Later

[Big FN Deal]

Re: Madden vs Real Football

Madden vs real football is "Everything you see[notice] on Sundays vs "True to the game".

I think Madden under Ian and Phil did a solid job of representing NFL cosmetics but the issues come into play for the NFL processes. I kept trying to figure out why even the most visually stunning plays in Madden don't have that "WOW!" factor for me and I realized it's due to the process or lack thereof. Madden at this point, is more of a real football montage than a true representation. It's the equivalent of someone making a historical movie or book about WWII only depicting massive explosions, heroic acts and an occasional casualty, completely omitting tons of historical context.

I have wanted a Halftime and League wrap-up show this entire gen for Madden but it will not feel organic without football context in the game. A highlight is considered that because it's not routine, extraordinary and something most people didn't expect. Currently, Madden's gameplay is based in extraordinary plays, which consequently makes them ordinary and routine.

There should be a mode or setting in Madden where 5-7 minute quarters produce an incomplete football game according to stats, fatigue, injury, strategy and the general processes of a entire football game. Next-gen Madden has been fundamentally developed to be a Cliff Notes version of NFL football for playcalling, penalties, ratings, playbooks, drafting, free agency, player interaction, risk/reward and many other things, which encourages an "instant gratification" playstyle. Not many students would bother to read the whole book if the already know the test is based solely on specific parts.

[Pared]

Re: Madden vs Real Football

I think there may be some confusion about what I mean when I say "Fire the User." Personally, I find it hard to discuss the differences between real football and Madden without talking how the consequences for poor performance are incongruous.

If there's no penalty for skipping practices, failing to watch film, prepare for opponents, or any of the things professional teams must do to avoid embarrassment on game day - it's almost impossible to simulate the pro football environment where firings happen all the time for less...

Unfortunately, EA can't fire customers and it only exacerbates the other differences between reality and the virtual world when the least common denominator is allowed to play alongside the most serious players. Of all the things that would never happen in the NFL, having players consistently perform poorly and maintain their position is the most important and most overlooked.

Later

You can't be serious.

I have to say - your comments just get more and more silly as they go on. People want the ON THE FIELD action to portray the fundamentals of football more accurately and you continue to go off on tangents that would require people who purchase a recreational video game to quit their jobs and become a digital coach in this made up world of pseudo NFL football?

...What the heck? I've never seen even a developer attempt to blow so much smoke when trying to explain a point. This is absolutely ridiculous. You've completely missed the point of why so many are no longer enamored with this series. In fact, this is something I would expect be proposed by the developers who were let go of Madden a few years back.

[KBLover]

Re: Madden vs Real Football

Unfortunately, EA can't fire customers and it only exacerbates the other differences between reality and the virtual world when the least common denominator is allowed to play alongside the most serious players. Of all the things that would never happen in the NFL, having players consistently perform poorly and maintain their position is the most important and most overlooked.

Then what EA needs is a ranked matchmaking system.

Like in SC2 - I'm a Silver league player. When I go into an online ranked game, I am never matched with a guy who plays the game for a living, literally (i.e. for money leagues, etc, those guys are mostly Grandmaster league players). I'm matched with people who are generally around my skill or people the matchmaker thinks I have a shot at beating.

So my lowly ability at the game impact none of their enjoyment. Balancing and such is for the top tiers (Masters, Grandmasters) and everyone else has to learn their way up.

If Madden had a similar outlook - Madden could be made with complexity and both fundamental and advanced football knowledge in mind.

Then the online arena has the pick-up games (unranked) and the ranked games. When a player selects to play a ranked game, EA could match them with all other players looking for a ranked game in the same general skill level (there would a skill rating or similar and the matchmaker could select within +/- a certain range. Wins increase your rating and losses drop it based on your and your opponent's rating).

As players get better and beat progressively better opponents, they start facing better competition and will need to hold their own, or sink back down. So if a player "doesn't do his homework" and gets owned by people who have better knowledge of the game - both on turf and in the virtual world - they won't be facing those players for long until they get better.

This is a pretty "heartless" system, and it is not perfect (you can cheese and win, etc, but it will get you only so far), but it would keep ranked games more orderly and more around your skill level - and there's incentive to improve (if you care about your ranking), a penalty for losing too much (losing league rank) and no one gets banned for not being uber at that game.

That seems like a much more workable and plausible system (considering it's happening as we speak on Blizzard's servers) than any notions of outright "firing" or banning players.

Weak teams do not get contracted in the NFL after all. Bad players do exist in the league, as do bad teams and bad coaches. They just sink in the stat columns and teams fall in the standings, this serves the same purpose.