Madden vs Real Football

[TNT713]

Re: Madden vs Real Football

TNT is serious about Madden first and Football second. He is serous about both, but in that order as far as I can tell.

I am serious about football. I don't care about being the best Madden player. I care about having a fun sim style experience.

I can relate to TNT in how he strives to get better at the game and encourages others to try and get better at the game. I just can't look past the obvious flaws and still enjoy the game like he can.

PG,

I just got my "final warning" from a mod regarding talking down to people... So I must be REALLY CAREFUL about how I address your comment to prevent you guys from missing out on my CD reports. I was told specifically that I am "not a Madden god."

Apparently I should be more like Rex Ryan and tell every player how amazing they are, and how great we are as a team of Madden players, and how every player is the epitome of SIM even though they haven't or won't simulate the tactics that real players use. So let me address your previous post under the full realization that every post you read from me from now on might be the last I ever post at OS.

You have my priorities reversed... I love football. I play Madden. I would play football if I weren't almost 40 years old, 5'6", and 135 lbs. Since I'm too old to begin an NFL career and to small to be taken seriously, I chose Madden to exorcise my football passion. Indeed if I had ever had any shot at playing football in the NFL, I may have never played Madden.

Please, please, please (satisfying the mods) never ever draw this conclusion again in spite of my dozens of attempts to emphasize FOOTBALL FIRST - MADDEN SECOND.

Let's get into real football for a moment... At one point in my life I ran the 40 in 4.5, could throw the ball 50 yards accurately, could run full speed and make an 180 degree turn within two steps, squat thrust 3x my body weight, and catch any ball thrown near me. Because of my skill set, I was often the 1st round pick everywhere I played as a youth.

In the virtual football arena, I've studied online football communities years before Madden offered online play on ANY system (PC included). I only got serious about Madden 13 years after my first experience with the series. Before that, I played dozens of games from several genres.

That said, during that 13 year period when I wasn't serious about Madden - my passion for football has not changed. Even then I was studying football hard. Right now I buy books about football and programming languages, but before I used Madden as my catalyst to teach myself web design - every book I purchased and/or read was football based.

During the QB Vision years, when I was utterly disgusted with the what was happening to my favorite game, I was still 100% committed to my love of football. When I interviewed for jobs I'd tell the interviewers that I was unavailable on Sundays and Monday nights during the NFL season. That condition is non-negotiable.

Lemme be even more specific about what football means to me... I watch every snap of every game. I invest hundreds of dollars in my football education every year whether it's access to game film with Game Rewind, paying for NFL Network, going out to simultaneously watch every game at a bar. Simply put - If you put a 100 foot flaming wall between me and NFL football - I'd find a way to watch and enjoy the game I love.

NOTHING STANDS BETWEEN ME AND MY FOOTBALL.

That might be why I'm single, haven't been married, and don't have any kids - but it those things interfere with my football - I don't want them anyway.

Now back to my opinions of Madden. Madden against the CPU sucks. Superstar sucks. Franchise sucks. Only head-to-head games are worth the time and effort. I don't love Madden. I love competing with other humans at Madden because I love competition.

When I compete, I do so with an intensity most people might not always appreciate - but I do so honorably. Once I was playing in a basketball league at a gym in NC. In one game, we were matched against an undefeated team who had a 6'9" oversees professional player (Jeremy) who happened to go to my old high school. I casually approached him before the game, caught up with non-basketball stuff, then warned him "Ain't gonna be NO DUNKS in this game." We both laughed.

In the 2nd half, Jeremy got his 1st opportunity for a break away. His team threw an outlet pass to the him on the left wing while I was just sprinting passed half-court. 1-on-1 with the defender trailing, Jeremy gathered his feet and was about to do a cuff windmill dunk with his right hand. I sprinted toward him, angled my body so that I cut off his path while being careful to make an attempt to defend the ball. I reached him before he was able to get the ball above his waist, got my left hand on the ball, while hitting him with a shoulder in the chest just as he was taking off. FOUL. He fell, I helped him up and said - "I told you." His teammates didn't take too kindly to the foul - but I got a hand on the ball so it wasn't a flagrant foul. And I would have honestly fought every single player on his team if it had come to that (I kinda wanted to fight several of them anyway). Either way, Jeremy and I were still friends... lol. And oh yeah, my team lost.

I compete in Madden the same way... I refuse to be cheesed in Madden same as I refused to allow that dunk in the basketball game.

Because of all the years I invested in reading about real coaching schemes, decisions, and tactics before Madden had an online experience I'm much better prepared than the average Madden player. But it took several years to translate my real world football knowledge and skills into methods that would work in a Madden game. Although I was well versed in football theory and real world execution, there was still a huge gap between what I knew and having it work.

So when I see Senator Palmer talk about how there's no way to accomplish a proper 'run fit,' I immediately think about my own run-fits and whether my players flow to the hole as they should. When I see BigFNDeal discussing how risk/reward parameters aren't represented, I immediately think about my own risks and whether the rewards match up. When I read players discussing problems with pass-trajectory I immediately think about how my passes are delivered to virtually every route I throw.

Thanks to the complaints of others, I have been able to overcome those issues using legitimate football tactics. I only fear that years of finding practical solutions to the problems others experience may adversely effect how I communicate those adjustments to others...

Which brings me back to my Rex Ryan analogy from earlier. I'm not a Madden god - as my final warning from the mod so aptly stated. But by doing the exact opposite of Rex Ryan's coaching style where I pat everyone on the head and tell them how great they are - I'm highly critical of my own play. More critical of my own play than anyone else, including EA. After all, no one can improve until they first admit they have a weakness that requires improvement.

Ultimately, I enjoyed fouling Jeremy for challenging my warning, I enjoy stomping fools that think they will cheese me in a Madden game, and I enjoy making people mad when their weaknesses are exposed.

Remember the game where Tom Brady threw for 5 TD's in a quarter against the Titans?

His coach wasn't in the press conference talking about how well Brady played. Brady is supposed to play well. That's what he gets paid for. his coach, unlike Rex Ryan, was focused on the things Brady needed to improve for the next game. That's my approach as well. I'm looking to improve my performance before I even think about looking at someone else's role in my performances.

I love the competing too much to accept anything less of myself in any arena.

Later

[Senator Palmer]

Re: Madden vs Real Football

So when I see Senator Palmer talk about how there's no way to accomplish a proper 'run fit,' I immediately think about my own run-fits and whether my players flow to the hole as they should.

Hold up, you are mischaracterizing my words, TNT. I never said there was no way to "accomplish" a run fit. What I said was that when I decided to input the defensive knowledge I had into my Madden style of play, and do basic things like attempt to play run-fits realistically, I couldn't, because it doesn't translate to the game.

And you actually agreed with me in your reply: http://www.operationsports.com/forum...-hope-see.html

TNT713

The difference being how to practically apply real life football knowledge in a way that is beneficial in a Madden game.

For instance, you mention how there's no "run fits" in Madden. I don't agree, but that's not the point. The point is once you learn about run fits from real life, whether from experience, coaching, or a book - you can't go straight from there to using it in Madden. There's a bridge process that must occur before any of this knowledge is useful in a Madden game.

I can fit the run all day long, but it's "Madden run fits" I have to apply. I have to overrun plays, cutting off the linebacker that should be filling; I have to shoot gaps that aren't mine to be effective. I never said there was no way to accomplish a run fit... but I do maintain that what you have to do to accomplish them in the game is not realistic because the game isn't polished enough in its programming for it.

[Soprano00]

Re: Madden vs Real Football

NOTHING STANDS BETWEEN ME AND MY FOOTBALL.

Hi TNT, thanks for sharing your personal view of football and Madden. But I'm afraid you're going definitely out of topic. The topic of the thread is (was): what could/shall EA change in the gameplay of the next installment of Madden to make it as much as possible a simulation of the real (NFL) football ?

Given your huge experience with the game, I'm sure you may significantly contribute to the topic, and it's a pity you keep refusing to do it.

[TNT713]

Re: Madden vs Real Football

And you actually agreed with me in your reply: http://www.operationsports.com/forum...-hope-see.html

Did you mean this comment:

For instance, you mention how there's no "run fits" in Madden. I don't agree, but that's not the point. The point is once you learn about run fits from real life, whether from experience, coaching, or a book - you can't go straight from there to using it in Madden. There's a bridge process that must occur before any of this knowledge is useful in a Madden game.

That's not an agreement. It's merely the realization that there is a step between the real world and Madden. Let's compare this to another realm that we might identify with: Foreign Languages.

I took Spanish for a total of 3 years in elementary (1 yr) and high school (2 yrs). Today, I can read and translate Spanish but don't have the skills to have a conversation in Spanish. I have not bridged my skills to read and understand Spanish into being able to talk or comprehend spoken Spanish. That said, learning conversational Spanish was never my goal when I took it years ago. Now that I live in Los Angeles, my inability to speak/comprehend Spanish is a much larger barrier than it used to be when I lived in North Carolina.

To relate this to Madden - I consider the football knowledge I've gained by reading coaching materials before Madden went online to be analogous to being able to read Spanish. I consider my ability to apply that knowledge in a Madden game to be analogous with being able to have a conversation in Spanish. The difference is, I've been able to bridge my Madden knowledge with the ability to use that knowledge practically where i have not been able to bridge that same divide when attempting to speak/comprehend conversational Spanish.

Of course, I never had a reason to try to speak/comprehend Spanish before moving to a place where that language was so much more prevalent than my previous surroundings. In LA, there's far more incentive to learn how to speak/comprehend than when I was in NC. Similar to my first online game when I realized I needed to learn to speak Madden fluently...

Later

[TNT713]

Re: Madden vs Real Football

Hi TNT, thanks for sharing your personal view of football and Madden. But I'm afraid you're going definitely out of topic. The topic of the thread is (was): what could/shall EA change in the gameplay of the next installment of Madden to make it as much as possible a simulation of the real (NFL) football ?

Given your huge experience with the game, I'm sure you may significantly contribute to the topic, and it's a pity you keep refusing to do it.

I know... I know... But my proposal simply doesn't work. In my 1st post of the thread I mentioned that there is no way to represent football without firing people. I'd recommend EA FIRE players. Lock them out.

Go 3-13 online - BAM. No more Madden for you.
Lose a game after going 2-8 on 4th down - FIRED. No more Madden for you.
Throw 10 INTS in a span of 3 games - FIRED. No more Madden for you.

As we all know - the threat of being fired governs the decisions NFL players and coaches make on Sunday. Teams don't punt on 4th and short because it's SIM - they do it because failure means someone's kids don't eat. Until that aspect of 'reality' exists in a Madden game there will always be a separation that keeps Madden from being similar to real life.

Later

[RGiles36]

Re: Madden vs Real Football

PG,

I just got my "final warning" from a mod regarding talking down to people... So I must be REALLY CAREFUL about how I address your comment to prevent you guys from missing out on my CD reports. I was told specifically that I am "not a Madden god."

Apparently I should be more like Rex Ryan and tell every player how amazing they are, and how great we are as a team of Madden players, and how every player is the epitome of SIM even though they haven't or won't simulate the tactics that real players use.

You don't have to be that careful -- just be more of the person you are offline. You don't strike me to be so aggressive or condescening in person as you are portrayed here at all. Just find the balance...

Now back to my opinions of Madden. Madden against the CPU sucks. Superstar sucks. Franchise sucks. Only head-to-head games are worth the time and effort. I don't love Madden. I love competing with other humans at Madden because I love competition.

I almost took offense to this LOL, but I guess the caveat is you stated 'my opinions of Madden'. Fair enough ...

[Senator Palmer]

Re: Madden vs Real Football

TNT, my man, you can talk around this one all you want. You can say that you didn't agree, but everything you typed after "I disagree" was an affirmation of the point that people have been trying to make in this debate -- that, no, you cannot directly input your football knowledge into Madden without going through a process... a process which by implication refers to a "Madden" way of doing things. A point that has been endlessly echoed around here.

Here it is again:

The difference being how to practically apply real life football knowledge in a way that is beneficial in a Madden game.

For instance, you mention how there's no "run fits" in Madden. I don't agree, but that's not the point. The point is once you learn about run fits from real life, whether from experience, coaching, or a book - you can't go straight from there to using it in Madden. There's a bridge process that must occur before any of this knowledge is useful in a Madden game.

That's as clear as day, TNT. If you want to clarify, then please do so, but this whole Spanish analogy is well and good, but it's just more of you finessing the discussion instead of directly addressing the point being made.



So my question still stands -- a question that you never did respond to in the other thread -- A run fit is a run fit. It's one of the elementary things in pro football. Why wouldn't it function the same in Madden as it does in real life? What do I have to do differently? Why can't I rely on playing B gap to A weak if I'm in a Cover 3 Under? What is this different process I must learn to get that to correlate with Madden? And I'm not talking about stick skills, or timing, I'm talking about the basics of playing the run that I learned when I was 13 years old and had re-enforced by countless hours of study of real NFL schemes and playbooks.

If you want to come out and say the "run-fits" in Madden function exactly as they do in the NFL, then that's fine, just tell me I'm mistaken, but that's not what you said. You never disputed that in the other thread, instead you came in here and dropped my name in a thread that I didn't even post in to make a point about you being misunderstood, and did it in a way that misrepresented my point.

Let me just end it with this so there's no misunderstanding. I've said it before, but I have no issue with you -- I'm still looking forward to getting a game in on Live -- but this whole stance you take of refusing to acknowledge Madden issues to Madden players, instead, choosing to only address them with developers is bogus on your part. There's no reason why you can't have a conversation that acknowledges Madden's flaws while still holding players accountable. Refusal to do so just stretches your credibility.

[Pared]

Re: Madden vs Real Football

Ok get back on topic. This is ridiculous.

[TNT713]

Re: Madden vs Real Football

You don't have to be that careful -- just be more of the person you are offline. You don't strike me to be so aggressive or condescening in person as you are portrayed here at all. Just find the balance...

I almost took offense to this LOL, but I guess the caveat is you stated 'my opinions of Madden'. Fair enough ...

RGiles,

The beauty of CD is being in the same room... What seems aggressive and condescending in a message board is regular conversation elsewhere. Having sat less than 10 feet away from me while CoachRuckus and I were engaged in a heated debate, I'm sure you realize that the way I type is much less harsh than the way I talk.

TNT, my man, you can talk around this one all you want. You can say that you didn't agree, but everything you typed after "I disagree" was an affirmation of the point that people have been trying to make in this debate -- that, no, you cannot directly input your football knowledge into Madden without going through a process... a process which by implication refers to a "Madden" way of doing things. A point that has been endlessly echoed around here.

Here it is again:

That's as clear as day, TNT. If you want to clarify, then please do so, but this whole Spanish analogy is well and good, but it's just more of you finessing the discussion instead of directly addressing the point being made.

So my question still stands -- a question that you never did respond to in the other thread -- A run fit is a run fit. It's one of the elementary things in pro football. Why wouldn't it function the same in Madden as it does in real life? What do I have to do differently? Why can't I rely on playing B gap to A weak if I'm in a Cover 3 Under? What is different process I must learn to get that to correlate with Madden? And I'm not talking about stick skills, or timing, I'm talking about the basic runs of playing the run that I learned when I was 13 years old and had re-enforced by countless hours of study of real NFL schemes and playbooks.

If you want to come out and say the "run-fits" in Madden function exactly as they do in the NFL, then that's fine, just tell me I'm mistaken, but that's not what you said. You never disputed that in the other thread, instead you came in here and dropped my name in a thread that I didn't even post in to make a point about you being misunderstood, and did it in a way that misrepresented my point.

Let me just end it with this so there's no misunderstanding. I've said it before, but I have no issue with you -- I'm still looking forward to getting a game in on Live -- but this whole stance you take of refusing to acknowledge Madden issues to Madden players, instead, choosing to only address them with developers is bogus on your part. There's no reason why you can't have a conversation that acknowledges Madden's flaws while still holding players accountable. Refusal to do so just stretches your credibility.

Senator Palmer,

If you're feeling misunderstood - Join the club! The one benefit RGiles and I have is that we have been in the same room, had conversations, and reached a conclusion (to agree or disagree). You and I have not had that same opportunity.

Regarding mentioning you and BigFNDeal - I only mentioned the two of you because I respect you as a thoughtful Madden players who have the ability to bridge the differences between the real world where the game is played on grass and Madden where it's played on plastic.

My respect for you as a thoughtful player does not imply that I agree with your assertions nor that we see eye-to-eye on the issues... Just that I have learned from your posts and find value in their content as a means to improve my own thought processes. Sometimes the value is found in an entire post, other times it's just one line, sometimes it's a mere word or phrase. Fortunately, we don't have to agree on play styles, philosophy, nor the meaning of SIM for value to be gleaned from a post.

One thing is for sure - I want every Madden player to be the best Madden player they can be. Figuratively, it doesn't bother me if I have to kick their grandma down a flight of stairs to facilitate it. Not literally of course (too small for prison), but you get the picture.

I have absolutely no problem with being hated - In fact I prefer it. But I have a problem with anyone that isn't reaching for excellence in whatever they choose to do. If I were washing cars instead of playing Madden I'd want to blind people with the sparkle without missing a spot. Same if I'm shining shoes. Madden is no different.

Regarding the 'run fit' portion of the discussion - I don't know what you were taught about run fits nor how those techniques relate to Madden. On the other hand, I know what I was taught about run fits - and I simulate those methods in Madden with an apparent ease that contradicts the effort you have put into translating run fits in your experience.

When we finally play a game - you will certainly see how I accomplish run fits and I'll see how you do it. At which point, we probably should start a thread discussing that specific topic in the Strategy section.

Later

[Big FN Deal]

Re: Madden vs Real Football

Hi TNT, thanks for sharing your personal view of football and Madden. But I'm afraid you're going definitely out of topic. The topic of the thread is (was): what could/shall EA change in the gameplay of the next installment of Madden to make it as much as possible a simulation of the real (NFL) football ?

Given your huge experience with the game, I'm sure you may significantly contribute to the topic, and it's a pity you keep refusing to do it.

I know... I know... But my proposal simply doesn't work. In my 1st post of the thread I mentioned that there is no way to represent football without firing people. I'd recommend EA FIRE players. Lock them out.

Go 3-13 online - BAM. No more Madden for you.
Lose a game after going 2-8 on 4th down - FIRED. No more Madden for you.
Throw 10 INTS in a span of 3 games - FIRED. No more Madden for you.

As we all know - the threat of being fired governs the decisions NFL players and coaches make on Sunday. Teams don't punt on 4th and short because it's SIM - they do it because failure means someone's kids don't eat. Until that aspect of 'reality' exists in a Madden game there will always be a separation that keeps Madden from being similar to real life.

Later

I would agree with some form of this but not based on wins and losses though. The point I was making before about firing being a result of decisions not being successful rather than them being inherently good or bad, applies here, imo.

For example, if EA started a Madden online ranked mode that gamers could only play in if they maintained a winning percentage over .400, that wouldn't do anything to curtail the use of "unsavory tactics" or gamer's perceived unwillingness to find ways to apply real NFL strategy to Madden. Most likely, it would have the opposite effect and exacerbate the situation.

The way to encourage all Madden gamers to become more NFL based problem solvers is for Madden to REQUIRE, not just permit, NFL based solutions for success. However, that requires the applicable parameters in Madden to be NFL based too.

It's ridiculous if we think about the fact that in Madden, an alleged NFL simulation game, even if we overlook the real world NFL parameters that are completely missing, adhering to those that are included, is not a requirement for success on any setting.

[TNT713]

Re: Madden vs Real Football

BigFN,

We've had the back and forth about "NFL parameters" for far to long considering no one has ever elaborated about what the term actually means... It's mystery meat good for making an argument only because it sounds good AND no one really knows what these parameters are. I'll list 2 of what I consider NFL parameters to assist in the process:

1) Talent - Everyone in the NFL has talent. Not every Madden player has talent.

2) Work Ethic - Players with talent that rely solely on that talent don't last long in the NFL (Jamarcus Russell, Ryan Leaf, Lawrence Phillips, etc). Staying in the NFL requires hard work, effort, and attention to detail.

Imagine an NFL where the players have little talent AND little work ethic. Can't say the quality of the game would merit the fan base the NFL has.

What parameters would you say are required for an NFL simulation - EA produced or otherwise?

Later

[Big FN Deal]

Re: Madden vs Real Football

BigFN,

We've had the back and forth about "NFL parameters" for far to long considering no one has ever elaborated about what the term actually means... It's mystery meat good for making an argument only because it sounds good AND no one really knows what these parameters are. I'll list 2 of what I consider NFL parameters to assist in the process:

1) Talent - Everyone in the NFL has talent. Not every Madden player has talent.

2) Work Ethic - Players with talent that rely solely on that talent don't last long in the NFL (Jamarcus Russell, Ryan Leaf, Lawrence Phillips, etc). Staying in the NFL requires hard work, effort, and attention to detail.

Imagine an NFL where the players have little talent AND little work ethic. Can't say the quality of the game would merit the fan base the NFL has.

What parameters would you say are required for an NFL simulation - EA produced or otherwise?

Later

I had to LOL when I first read this, not at you but at the fact I was feeling I had elaborated on specific parameters to the point of borderline trolling. lol

That said, I will just quote posts I already made in this very thread, ironically, in discussions with you.

Page 2- Post #12

If Madden focused on representing the applicable real life parameters of NFL football as accurately as possible, like penalties, injuries, fatigue, play design assignments/responsibility, timing, mental/physical/skill/social player limitations, physics, coaching, environmental effects and player to player interaction, everything else would fall into place to simulate a NFL football experience and challenge.

EDIT* Forgot aging and wear-n-tear for Career modes.

Page 3-Post #22 & #24

If Madden represents the NFL parameters that lead to the failure of Fun n Gun like the QB taking so many hits he stays injured and paranoid, signing fast lower talented RBs with poor NFL production being unable to establish a ground game, low talent WR familiar with the system being unable to get open and coach ratings denoting which ones have poor team work ethic, then having virtually Spurrier/User actually be fired, isn't necessary. Their lack of success will make them as NFL ineffective, irrelevant and non f'n factors, as NFL unemployment would.

The underline portion is the crux of it though TNT, without applicable NFL parameters represented in the Madden program, there can be no simulating what the NFL coaches do.

Real NFL coaches were able to stop what Spurrier tried because of simple factors like injury, penalties, spacing, player limitations and physics, all of which are poorly represented in Madden.

[TNT713]

Re: Madden vs Real Football

Helps to have them all in the same place - and this thread seemed like a good place to have them.

Later

[Cardot]

Re: Madden vs Real Football

We all know plays abused by cheesers and unfair gamers in Madden. Question is why those plays are a good choice in Madden and not in Real Football ?

I'll preface this with the fact that I am a mediocre player, who only plays offline vs the CPU. So my experience is very different from high level head to head players.

With that being said, I have always felt that most video football games do a poor job with accurate risk/reward of the playbook. As horrible as I am at the game, I can complete slants all day long in M12. While I know that the playaction passes can work, there is also a decent probability that I will be sacked before I get out of the animation...the risk doesn't balance with the reward, so in a tense situation, I won't call them.

[TNT713]

Re: Madden vs Real Football

With that being said, I have always felt that most video football games do a poor job with accurate risk/reward of the playbook. As horrible as I am at the game, I can complete slants all day long in M12. While I know that the playaction passes can work, there is also a decent probability that I will be sacked before I get out of the animation...the risk doesn't balance with the reward, so in a tense situation, I won't call them.

I don't call playaction much either... Not unless there is QB movement to get him away from pressure. Online against humans, people rarely use PA with the QB making the fake directly behind the center. It's always a stretch, boot, or a waggle of some sort because those leave the least chances of giving up the sack.

Regarding the slants vs the CPU... The CPU doesn't make adjustments like humans would. The CPU might call the same defense as a human, but it won't adjust that play to take the slants away. A human on the other hand would change the coverage audible to play underneath the slant and take the play away.

Later