In a nutshell, what's wrong with next gen madden.

[FreAk47]

Re: In a nutshell, what's wrong with next gen madden.

Tackling is one of the worst parts of the game, and has been this entire console generation.

Agreed 100%

[KBLover]

Re: In a nutshell, what's wrong with next gen madden.

Penalties like that I'm willing to let slide because I know tracking all of that could be a real nightmare for the current console. The next console generation is another matter.

Why would it a nightmare to track?

The game is already aware of when players go out of bounds, I'm sure it could grab the information of the first player the ball's hit box contacts and check to see if he's an eligible receiver on that play or if he went out of bounds at all during the play since the game already tracks contact with the football to catch, deflect, kick, etc.

If a player goes out of bounds or is ineligible, set a flag. If that player is the first player to contact a pass, call a penalty.

Illegal contact/defensive holding (both in pass or run) would just need animations just like offensive holding. The game even has penalties in there are no sliders for (you can get called for late hit out of bounds and the CPU can somehow trigger an illegal forward pass, which has no referee audio for whatever reason).

[rymflaherty]

Re: In a nutshell, what's wrong with next gen madden.

To me one of the problems is after a couple years of Franchise the game tends to get "stale"......and I'm not sure what EA can do, because the problems are really inherit to attempting to "simulate" a football game.

I love MLB the show, because it gives me a truly varied experience.....I never know what to expect game to game, season to season. Guys can get hot, guys will be cold, etc.
I was thinking about this (and why it's not the case for Madden) and it was obvious, baseball really lends itself to such a simulation. Baseball being at it's heart a 1:1 battle between pitcher and batter, where a potential result can be assigned to a dice role.
How do you accomplish that with Madden? Football the ultimate team sport. 22 players on the field all with unique responsibilities that can make or break the play?

What I've noticed, and a major problem, is in Madden the player has too much control over success, and that leads to it being "stale".
For ex. - After a couple years I have the playbook down. I know my first read, second read and third. I know where I'm going vs. Man, vs. Zone.
It gets to the point where I could replicate the results with virtually any QB rated over 75 or so........
It becomes more dependent on my ability and football knowledge then the virtual players on the field.

Another area this becomes a problem is with the ratings. Certain ratings (like speed) can be too great an indicator of success and mask the players falls.
In the NFL a fast back my stink, because he lacks things like vision. He doesn't see the hole, dances, etc. But in Madden if you give me a pure speed back more often than not I have success, regardless of rating.
Because again, the things that are what separates the haves from have not's in real life, are controlled by the USER. I'm controlling the back, where he goes, how he hits the hole.......Things like vision and awareness now mean little.


So beyond the usual stuff we all see (like crappy animations, horrible logic when it comes to DB/WR interactions, etc.) this is another big problem to me, and one that does not have an easy answer.
The only solution I can think of would be to have more "out of the players control".......That would come closer to realism that I personally desire. I.E. - A QB without a great rating just flat out missing throws. A fast, but low overall back slipping, or slowing up as he gets to the hole.
That would help facilitate "realism" and variance in games, and actually make results more dependent on having a skilled team, rather than the user becoming good at the game.
But that creates a new problem, because I'm sure that would just make people angry that things are being taken out of their control.

I actually have had fun with this year's Madden (as opposed to 11' which literally was infuriating and unplayable to me).....but more often then not it still feels like a game, rather than a true simulation (like playing the Show or NBA2K).

[Cardot]

Re: In a nutshell, what's wrong with next gen madden.

What I've noticed, and a major problem, is in Madden the player has too much control over success, and that leads to it being "stale".

For me, it is the opposite reason. (we likely have different settings, play styles, and you are probably much better). But for me, the game feels stale because I don't feel I have much to do with the outcome. As mentioned in earlier posts, just way too often I will be gifted a big play when I didn't do anything to earn it....and vice versa. I am not suggesting that there shouldn't be things out of my control...there should. But in my experience they just feel feel exagerated and artificial.

Another area this becomes a problem is with the ratings. Certain ratings (like speed) can be too great an indicator of success and mask the players falls........Things like vision and awareness now mean little.

I agree with you here, but not sure how the game should be designed to handle it? Especially things like "Vision". The vision is on the user whether he is Adrian Peterson or a practice squad RB.

[SuckaRepellent]

For me its amazing plays average dudes can make on a regular basis. Itll seem like a cornerback is covering two people at once.

They dont get football stuff right. Just because I fumble near the sideline it doesnt mean ts automatically the defenses ball if he doesnt establish possession.

Being hit catching the ball is ruled a fumble a lot of times when it would be ruled an incompletition.

The way offensive lineman and defensive lineman interact is often attrocious. Ive replayed sacks Ive gotten and given at times and Ill see the center pull back and sit in his stance and not engage anyone. This is exactly why nano blitzes exsist.

I still enjoy Madden Im definitely not bashing it but those are things I notice that have been around for a few years I wish would be resolved.


Sent from my myTouch 4G Slide using Tapatalk

[adfletch71]

Re: In a nutshell, what's wrong with next gen madden.

Penalties like that I'm willing to let slide because I know tracking all of that could be a real nightmare for the current console. The next console generation is another matter.

Broncos ALLPRO2K8 had the majority of penalties in it and OPI/DPI that worked. There was RISK/REWARD in the passing game. So current console can do it, it's just EA mindset that caters too the casual/tournament gamers that has dummed down the passing game. EA want passers too put 600 yards in a game and no penalty behind it. U can run around the field bump/jump all day and not get called for illegal contact or interference. This isnt real football and EA should be ashamed.

[helmetbase]

Re: In a nutshell, what's wrong with next gen madden.

I actually think that this is a problem that most games have and not just next gen madden games.

I played Madden 12 (don't own it so just had a few games with it), Nba 2k11-2k12, Nba Live 9X-2000series, and a couple of racing games and they all have rubberbanding.

I read somewhere that it's there so that 1. games would be more dramatic. 2. people would not just rage quit during their vs. CPU games if opponents are flattening them out.

Think about it, playing a 12 minute basketball game (yeah I set it at that) and then losing by 30 after the half, I think people would just quit the game thinking that they have no chance anyway. Personally I wouldn't mind the beatdown, it would just mean that I need to lower the difficulty or something.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: In a nutshell, what's wrong with next gen madden.

To me one of the problems is after a couple years of Franchise the game tends to get "stale"......and I'm not sure what EA can do, because the problems are really inherit to attempting to "simulate" a football game.

I love MLB the show, because it gives me a truly varied experience.....I never know what to expect game to game, season to season. Guys can get hot, guys will be cold, etc.
I was thinking about this (and why it's not the case for Madden) and it was obvious, baseball really lends itself to such a simulation. Baseball being at it's heart a 1:1 battle between pitcher and batter, where a potential result can be assigned to a dice role.
How do you accomplish that with Madden? Football the ultimate team sport. 22 players on the field all with unique responsibilities that can make or break the play?

What I've noticed, and a major problem, is in Madden the player has too much control over success, and that leads to it being "stale".
For ex. - After a couple years I have the playbook down. I know my first read, second read and third. I know where I'm going vs. Man, vs. Zone.
It gets to the point where I could replicate the results with virtually any QB rated over 75 or so........
It becomes more dependent on my ability and football knowledge then the virtual players on the field.

Another area this becomes a problem is with the ratings. Certain ratings (like speed) can be too great an indicator of success and mask the players falls.
In the NFL a fast back my stink, because he lacks things like vision. He doesn't see the hole, dances, etc. But in Madden if you give me a pure speed back more often than not I have success, regardless of rating.
Because again, the things that are what separates the haves from have not's in real life, are controlled by the USER. I'm controlling the back, where he goes, how he hits the hole.......Things like vision and awareness now mean little.


So beyond the usual stuff we all see (like crappy animations, horrible logic when it comes to DB/WR interactions, etc.) this is another big problem to me, and one that does not have an easy answer.
The only solution I can think of would be to have more "out of the players control".......That would come closer to realism that I personally desire. I.E. - A QB without a great rating just flat out missing throws. A fast, but low overall back slipping, or slowing up as he gets to the hole.
That would help facilitate "realism" and variance in games, and actually make results more dependent on having a skilled team, rather than the user becoming good at the game.
But that creates a new problem, because I'm sure that would just make people angry that things are being taken out of their control.

I actually have had fun with this year's Madden (as opposed to 11' which literally was infuriating and unplayable to me).....but more often then not it still feels like a game, rather than a true simulation (like playing the Show or NBA2K).

Thank you for this post. Of all the ideas I keep advocating for to better represent a team feel to football games and diminish the overriding potential of User control, a more realistically limited field level game play view seems to be the easiest.

OnlyLT has been preaching this for the longest time and I have to agree. The more I look at BackBreakers game play view, the more I want that OPTION in EA football games. It's not as restricting as a First person/helmet cam would be, requiring some kind of head turn mechanic for every player. However, it does seem to limit the User's view enough to corral manually "psychic" game play. Meaning, there is no way the in-game player could see the safety or pass rush coming from their blind side but the User can and will prematurely be prepared.

C'mon devs, I am not asking for some big overhaul to programming, as far as I know. Just a field level camera view option and maybe a way for a Commish or Lobby creators to "lock it in" for all Users that choose to play in that league or online lobby.

[alexgamez122]

Re: In a nutshell, what's wrong with next gen madden.

No competition.

This is a huge misconception with people, competition would not fix madden or whatever your trying to say. All that happens is people buy the better game. Look at the NHL 2K series, MLB 2K series, Sony's NBA Franchise. Numerous times this has happened and the only thing that comes out of it is one company(the one that makes the lesser game) stops coming out with the title because it does not sell well. In order for this to work people would have embrace competition by buying both games. If you mean 2K would come out with a game and you would buy it instead of madden, that has nothing to do with competition you just want 2K to make a football game again. They only way this could work is if both company make very good games that challenge each other, with no clear winner. This is hard to find and doesn't happen that often.

[KBLover]

Re: In a nutshell, what's wrong with next gen madden.

I actually think that this is a problem that most games have and not just next gen madden games.

I played Madden 12 (don't own it so just had a few games with it), Nba 2k11-2k12, Nba Live 9X-2000series, and a couple of racing games and they all have rubberbanding.

I read somewhere that it's there so that 1. games would be more dramatic. 2. people would not just rage quit during their vs. CPU games if opponents are flattening them out.

Think about it, playing a 12 minute basketball game (yeah I set it at that) and then losing by 30 after the half, I think people would just quit the game thinking that they have no chance anyway. Personally I wouldn't mind the beatdown, it would just mean that I need to lower the difficulty or something.

You're probably right about the score/getting whipped by the CPU. A lot of people would probably get pissed, then gripe that the game sucks and such. That said, even rubberbanding doesn't work too well if the player doesn't let it work, which means it's still a very flawed idea for creating "dramatic" games, imo. If I QQ out after getting down 24-3 at the half, I'm not going to see if it's a "tale of two halves" or not. So the rubberbanding doesn't get to work.

I also think it's a byproduct of game AI drastically lagging behind the progression of the rest of game technology. Sound, graphics, atmosphere - all that are progressively better, yet AI is still rooted in old mindsets. Pseudo-learning, adaptation, behavioral adjustments, all of that is still too lacking, imo, so the solution became short cuts like rubberbanding or jacking up/gimping abilities so the formulas go for/against the player more or less, etc.

At best, the PC game AIs I've seen in recent years (granted I only play RTS/TBS games on PC and can only see the games where I can mod or have seen mods made that impact AI - which themselves are fewer) are ones where there seems to be code to improve the AI, but the developer/AI creator just chose not to use it for whatever reason. I see in the Green Tea AI in SC2 and in mods I've made for other games for a buddy and I to play against the CPU (neither one of us is big on online play) that puts up a challenge.

If Game AI got the same treatment as graphics and sound, I bet we'd see less of these "short cuts" and more of smarter AI opponents across the whole of gaming.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: In a nutshell, what's wrong with next gen madden.

At the risk of frustrating myself, I want to comment on the AI and general parameters in EA football games. Like KB just mentioned, it seems to be more a case of not wanting to program a nuanced realistic challenge than not being able.

It confuses me when I see things said like, "we don't want to add something like player demands to free agency without explaining to gamers exactly why the player didn't sign". That sounds like they don't want to have the challenge of not signing who you want without divulging exactly why, so you can know exactly how to sign them anyway. lol. However, for things I would think they should inform gamers more about, like sliders and ratings, they leave for User trial and error.

In regards to game play, I just don't understand why the CPU and AI in general is not more meticulous and data driven. For instance, I often mention the VIP system from NFL2k that stored gamers playstyles and could be used to attempt to get the CPU to mimic a User. It's know years later and I don't see how some improved system has not run with and expanded on that idea. Not specifically the VIP system but the premise of each coach and in-game player having a certain style, including inherent strengths and weaknesses.

[RGiles36]

Re: In a nutshell, what's wrong with next gen madden.

There was RISK/REWARD in the passing game. So current console can do it, it's just EA mindset that caters too the casual/tournament gamers that has dummed down the passing game.

You continue to run around with this risk/reward sentiment. I think it's totally off-base. I'd argue that right now, there's too much risk in the passing game when you consider you can't completely trust the defenders. In M12, defenders are liable to make impossible plays b/c they have the flexibility to turn on a dime + the poor trajectories.

The current passing game has problems, but the lack of risk isn't one of them.

[KBLover]

Re: In a nutshell, what's wrong with next gen madden.

You continue to run around with this risk/reward sentiment. I think it's totally off-base. I'd argue that right now, there's too much risk in the passing game when you consider you can't completely trust the defenders. In M12, defenders are liable to make impossible plays b/c they have the flexibility to turn on a dime + the poor trajectories.

The current passing game has problems, but the lack of risk isn't one of them.

There is a risk/reward issue in the pass game. You can't trust the defenders/what you see, but when they DON'T pull that crap you mention, the coverage is average at best.

I think it's because there isn't a good risk/reward system. But for the bs, the challenge might not be there at all. Only on occasion do they make a realistic good play. Other times, it seems to be "hax-like" plays or horrid "what is he doing??" coverage.

The only risk is an unrealistic one, but outside of that, there's little risk, imo, especially without going down to a very low User offense in sliders and/or a horrid QB.

[Broncos86]

Re: In a nutshell, what's wrong with next gen madden.

The problem isn't black and white. There isn't just "risk" and "reward." That's too narrow. The problem is that certain plays have no risk, other plays have incredible risk. And how you approach the passing game can dictate your point of view on this. Someone who likes to throw posts in front of the safeties will have a vastly different view from someone who works slants and swing routes.

Then you start to get into the area of DB vision and that whole bit. Your eyes see a play and think "money," only to have a DB (whose back is turned) stop on a dime, turn around, and take a pick-six. That was a real frustration of mine, because I wanted to take advantage of a deep route taking away a DB, then hit the slot receiver running an out-route underneath. Well, as we all know, the DB on the deep WR would just stop and make a play on the out route.

That being said, the scenario I described should be corrected in '13.

[22cedric]

Re: In a nutshell, what's wrong with next gen madden.

Mike Young & Cam Weber discuss the future of Madden Nfl Football #InterestingPodcast

http://www.gamesradar.com/box-score-podcast-008/