Madden Serenity

[KBLover]

Re: Madden Serenity

I'm just not a fan of the sense of entitlement that we at OS tend to have. Madden has been for the most part what it's always been -- so why does everyone get disturbed that it's not like NFL2K or APF?

I don't care that it's not like either of those games. I never even played APF. I got 2k5 because it was $19 and you just don't not try a $19 console game, imo, if it's subject matter is what you're interested in.

I just want realistic football. It can be like those, not like those, like Football Pro '98 or Tecmo Super Bowl with 2013 graphics, whatever. It doesn't matter to me. I just want realism - a truly "what I see on Sunday" experience from multiple levels.

What's most frustrating to me is that Madden is closer than it would appear, but never seems to want to go for it, so to speak. It's like a perennial 8-8 team that just won't make the move or two it needs to go to the next level and all the changes that happen end up cancelling out and still 8-8 with a new batch of people.

I'm not suggesting that I'm any different either. I just want to dialogue about the expectations and where they stem from...and are they justified?

Justified by...who/what?

If you want what you want, then that's all the justification you need. It's your money and you have the right to demand XYZ for in exchange for it. If others don't agree - well that's what makes a market and the world go around. But it doesn't mean only one of those groups is "justified" in what they want in the game, imo.

[ajknows]

Re: Madden Serenity

I'll just say this, some of the people's support and forgiveness to EA/ Madden is really astounding. They are a corporation trying to get into your pockets, period. They don't care if your happy or not with the product so long as you keep buying. And they know you will, why because your an addict of football, you need your gaming fix each year.

And no this does not speak to everyone that has ever worked at EA.

Put the corporation just want's you to consume their product and with all the addicts and a monopoly it's not that hard a sell.
But what bothers me the most is the way EA over sell's their game and all their gimmick features while the foundation of their game remains broke.
And this to me is an insult to the customer, as if they can dangle a shinny object in our face and will just smile and reach in our pocket year after year with out any real thought about what we are investing our money in.

I take all their hype and snake oil salesman tactics as seriously as I do late night as seen on TV wonder products, both will probably be a disappointment and left sitting on a shelf somewhere collecting dust.

Anyway I'll do the same thing this year as all the others, I'll try to read through the hype, watch videos, download demo and go from there. If this year follows suit I'll pass on madden again and move on to looking at the basketball games coming out. If they surprise me and I'm blown away I'll buy it first day and give them their props.

[BezO]

Re: Madden Serenity

Is it really that black & white though?

I believe so.

Were any tourney gamers migrating to more authentic NFL2K when it was around? I think there is something to be said for how tourney players approach the game. It's got a be at least a little naive to think they absolutely want authenticity. I mean, it wasn't til Gibs started a thread here that he even realized how big an issue the previous omission of pass interference has been.

As evidenced by some of the recent threads around here, there are tourney gamers who could care less about simulating football -- they want to play Madden.

People have preferences. There were more to the differences than 2K being more realistic. As much of a 2K5 head as I was, I didn't like things about it and could see those things deterring folks. I hated tapping for speed burst. I hated the running animations. Aside from a year or 2 when Madden had some real funky looking player models, I've always liked Madden's graphics more. The menus, etc.

I think what's to be said about their approach to the game is they want to win & will use the tools given. If the best way to win is to abuse the AI, then so be it. If the AI couldn't be abused, they'd be good at whatever works. No swerving? They'd master the realistic footwork. As much as some of them practice, what's stopping them from being good at whatever EA releases?

IMO, they make up for what the game doesn't provide. I don't think they'd nano, for example, if play calling were tiered and they could scheme blitzes like NFL D coordinators do. They practice more than most, would still know more about what works against what, and be successful. Instead of all that reblitzing & such, they'd be shading WRs, bringing SS in the box, etc.

As much trash as sim heads talk, I'd put money on a trourney dude against them more times than not. Someone that knows the game better may have the initial advantage when this mystical, realistic Madden comes out. But I think things would balance & even tilt back to them in no time at all. And there'd still be a stick skill element, timing, etc. I don't care how much one knows about football, it would still be a video game. It would take practice to translate that knowledge.

[kjcheezhead]

Re: Madden Serenity

I strongly disagree. From what i can tell, tourney dudes practice more than anyone. They will enjoy & be good at the game no matter what. They excel at rocket catching, for example, because it's in the game. If passing were more realistic, they'd be as good or better than most sim heads.

Correct me if I'm wrong because I definitely don't keep up with EA's financials, but I would guess their sales have been fairly steady the past few years. Sim heads have been buying the game knowing what they're going to get, less bugs & such. Who didn't know WR mirroring would be in '12? Rocket catching, the lack of route based passing, etc? None of this stopped 99% of the dissatisfied sim heads from buying the game.

And as long as EA separates authenticity from difficulty, casual gamers will be just fine.

Everyone wants what they see on Sunday.

I don't think this is the case. It seems like it should be but as Rgiles said, some people really want to just play Madden.

The big factor is control. Tourney guys don't want to lose games because of penalties, random things like bad snaps or because their player wasn't looking for the ball. They want to be able to user catch almost every throw if they lab it to death. They want to set up blitzes that will get to the qb every time. They like the zig zag running because it allows them the control to avoid being tackled. It's their idea of fun.

Take away control and replace it with realistic play and this group gets upset. Ask one of these guys to play 2k and they'll tell you players move like boats, the defenders don't react quickly enough, wrs drop too many passes and the qbs throw too many incompletions. In short, there is just too much of that game that's out of their control. Back on the ps2 systems, I tended to agree with this view myself.

I agree with Rgiles, madden has never been the beacon for realistic simulation. It still sold better than a game that really did attempt to be that type of game though.

[roadman]

Re: Madden Serenity

What gimmick features are being touted for 13? Is it the new sound technology, passing trajectories, read and react defense, new broadcast announcers, connected careers, and whatever is announced next week?

Plus, every corporation is trying to get into our wallets, from McDonalds, to Chevy to EA. The new Justin Bieber CD is coming out, gotta have it without listening to it. That is without corporations trying to get into your wallet.

It's up to the consumer if they want to purchase.

[BezO]

Re: Madden Serenity

I refuse to go digging around for it again but AJ(Adembroski) posted that the Madden engine in M12 could accomplish anything NFL2k did or something along those lines...

Really? Wow! I feel a way about that. If that's saying what I think it's saying, shame on EA!!!

Now I have to go looking through all his posts to put that in context.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: Madden Serenity

I strongly disagree. From what i can tell, tourney dudes practice more than anyone. They will enjoy & be good at the game no matter what. They excel at rocket catching, for example, because it's in the game. If passing were more realistic, they'd be as good or better than most sim heads.

Correct me if I'm wrong because I definitely don't keep up with EA's financials, but I would guess their sales have been fairly steady the past few years. Sim heads have been buying the game knowing what they're going to get, less bugs & such. Who didn't know WR mirroring would be in '12? Rocket catching, the lack of route based passing, etc? None of this stopped 99% of the dissatisfied sim heads from buying the game.

And as long as EA separates authenticity from difficulty, casual gamers will be just fine.

Everyone wants what they see on Sunday.

This right here is where the wheels completely come off for the reasoning behind NFL authenticity lacking in so many areas only due to casuals. I can't figure out how many casuals play offline franchise and would ask for things like no league wrapup show, displayed potential and free agency without player wants. Even franchise mode which I would think is mainly for NFL hardcore gamers, lacks NFL authenticity.

It's like Madden is often discussed in an alternate reality by EA and that trickles down to the community. For example, who are these casuals that EA refers to every year that are intimidated by the football fundamental realism in Madden, so they need to make the game more accessible for them? If anything, most people I read about that are intimidated by Madden is due to the unrealistic arcade tactics and stick skills other gamers can use against them or the unrealistic AI playing against the CPU. I know I am not the standard but where are these gamers, that have actually tried the game, that are intimidated by the NFL challenge found in Madden?

EA/Tiburon is like a political think tank, imo, that makes up issues and concerns, funnels them throughout the Madden community, then addresses the same problems they made up.

I want to see more gamers, websites and media place reasonable accountability for the repeated negatives and complaints about lacking NFL authenticity in Madden, on EA/Tiburon.

[ch46647]

Re: Madden Serenity

This right here is where the wheels completely come off for the reasoning behind NFL authenticity lacking in so many areas only due to casuals. I can't figure out how many casuals play offline franchise and would ask for things like no league wrapup show, displayed potential and free agency without player wants. Even franchise mode which I would think is mainly for NFL hardcore gamers, lacks NFL authenticity.

It's like Madden is often discussed in an alternate reality by EA and that trickles down to the community. For example, who are these casuals that EA refers to every year that are intimidated by the football fundamental realism in Madden, so they need to make the game more accessible for them? If anything, most people I read about that are intimidated by Madden is due to the unrealistic arcade tactics and stick skills other gamers can use against them or the unrealistic AI playing against the CPU. I know I am not the standard but where are these gamers, that have actually tried the game, that are intimidated by the NFL challenge found in Madden?

EA/Tiburon is like a political think tank, imo, that makes up issues and concerns, funnels them throughout the Madden community, then addresses the same problems they made up.

I want to see more gamers, websites and media place reasonable accountability for the repeated negatives and complaints about lacking NFL authenticity in Madden, on EA/Tiburon.

Great post

[BezO]

Re: Madden Serenity

I don't think this is the case. It seems like it should be but as Rgiles said, some people really want to just play Madden.

This is tough to address because this mystical Madden doesn't exist. It would have to be available & compared.

The big factor is control. Tourney guys don't want to lose games because of penalties, random things like bad snaps or because their player wasn't looking for the ball. They want to be able to user catch almost every throw if they lab it to death. They want to set up blitzes that will get to the qb every time. They like the zig zag running because it allows them the control to avoid being tackled. It's their idea of fun.

I agree with the control element. Hell, I'm not that type of player & still want to control what goes on. But...

Penalties are under player control. Sure, some of them would seem random, like holding on a kick return. But penalties can be controlled to some degree. Putting DBs in the best position curbs PI. Quicker passes can curb holding for lesser o-linemen. Both offsides & holding are about the snap count & pass rush success.

Most bad snaps are not random. Centers make bad snaps trying to get to blocks quicker because they've been getting beat. QBs pull out early because they've been getting hit. Gurode hit Romo in the face because he's an idiot and would forget the count.

I think tourney players would be better at timing routes than most. Just like IRL, it's just practice. No, they won't be able to turn an out into a seam by throwing early, but they can control the timing & hit a WR on his break. They can throw the WR open. Pump fakes, etc. Folks fell in love with rocket catching because it was available. No one was asking for this "feature" before it was discovered. And user catching doesn't go away because of route based passing.

Nanos are just another product of using the tools provided. No one was requesting any of this. These methods were discovered. Folks loved Madden prior to their discovery. There's a realistic version of this in this mystical Madden. Overload blitzing. Zone blitzing. Delayed blitzes. They'd lab the hell out of those & still kick most folks a**.

Zig zagging... same. Replace that will realistic footwork & they'd still juke defenders. And it would look prettier too.

I think they have fun playing a video football game & competing. I don't believe that would change just because the game was more realistic.

Take away control and replace it with realistic play and this group gets upset. Ask one of these guys to play 2k and they'll tell you players move like boats, the defenders don't react quickly enough, wrs drop too many passes and the qbs throw too many incompletions. In short, there is just too much of that game that's out of their control. Back on the ps2 systems, I tended to agree with this view myself.

Players moving like boats? Relatively, sure. But I think 2K could've made quick players quicker. I also think you replace unrealistic fun with realistic fun. As it stands, you can't do a lot of moves in Madden. The juke button isn't a juke. It's a cut. With realistic footwork, you'd be able to juke. You could double jab & burst. Neither of these were represented in 2K. As it is, you can't spin OFF tackles. Imagine if you could.

Looks like Madden is going with more realistic reactions this year, so...

I don't remember a lot of dropped passes in 2K, but I'll concede. But it's not out of anyone's control. Like IRL, they'd just throw to their better WRs more. And they'd have to be better with their timing & location, which I'd bet they would be. Again, I think it's just trading an unrealistic element with a realistic but controllable one.

I agree with Rgiles, madden has never been the beacon for realistic simulation. It still sold better than a game that really did attempt to be that type of game though.

Sure it was. It was the most realistic game out until 2K got its stride. Personally, I didn't like 2K more until 2K5.

As for sales, there are other factors. Not sure when the first 2K dropped, but Madden had a big headstart. They also had a bigger marketing budget. Like most products, only a few customers actually look for the best. There's a reason companies put so much into marketing. I can tell you quite a few places that make a better burger for the same price as a big mac, but that doesn't stop McDonalds from selling more burgers than everyone else.

[RGiles36]

Re: Madden Serenity

Sure it was. It was the most realistic game out until 2K got its stride. Personally, I didn't like 2K more until 2K5.

Hmm, I don't know about that. I remember dropping back 20+ yards w/ the QB dating back to Madden '95 when I was just a pup. It could've only have been so realistic.

More recently, I can't think of any last gen Madden that's more realistic than what we have now. You could say footwork and locomotion were better tuned then, but then I could raise you OL/DL interaction and while it's not to 2K's level, it's better than what we had last gen.

I stick by the assertion that realism was never Madden's wheelhouse. I think it is now gearing towards realism and will continue to do so, but historically, it hasn't. It's always been about that fun/realism balance.

[Franchise408]

Re: Madden Serenity

Any developer that has the license.

Exactly, Madden sells because of the NFL brand, not because of any marketing or quality.

[GiantBlue76]

Re: Madden Serenity

Hmm, I don't know about that. I remember dropping back 20+ yards w/ the QB dating back to Madden '95 when I was just a pup. It could've only have been so realistic.

More recently, I can't think of any last gen Madden that's more realistic than what we have now. You could say footwork and locomotion were better tuned then, but then I could raise you OL/DL interaction and while it's not to 2K's level, it's better than what we had last gen.

I stick by the assertion that realism was never Madden's wheelhouse. I think it is now gearing towards realism and will continue to do so, but historically, it hasn't. It's always been about that fun/realism balance.

Actually, if you go way back to Madden's inception, it was originally designed to be the most realistic simulation of football ever. I believe it was FAR more realistic back in the day than it is today. You have to take into account the available technology, the competing products and what was already out there when determining this. AT THAT TIME - Madden was a realistic game. I would argue that today, Madden is more of an unrealistic game than it was back then given the technology, the competing products and the resources allotted to it.

[GiantBlue76]

Re: Madden Serenity

Exactly, Madden sells because of the NFL brand, not because of any marketing or quality.

That's not entirely true. I believe Madden sells more due to it's legacy and its name. There was a reason why all of us (Especially older guys) started playing Madden. BECAUSE IT WAS AWESOME! I believe many people buy Madden for nostalgic reasons and what it once was ALONG WITH the fact it's the only NFL game.

[LBzrule]

Re: Madden Serenity

True but at what point does it becomes false or intentionally misleading? Most posts I read that have a negative or disappointed theme are based on what EA promoted Madden to be but didn't deliver on. I would like to know from EA is the bar for Madden video game fun with a NFL theme or NFL simulation fun, which comes through realism. If it's the former, then there is very little that separates Madden from NFL Blitz but at least be real about it and if it's the latter, then gamers need to keep criticizing EA about the lack of realism in Madden.

Like I stated in the OP, EA doesn't just promote the NFL theme in Madden, they promote a overall commitment to NFL authenticity but it's consistently lacking in the final product, imo. Then, they make a few comments about "how things take time", "limited resources" and "maxed out hardware", then websites, reviewers and some in the community carry the company water, repeating those same talking points. Just think about how many times a reviewer or interviewer has referenced how football realistic Madden has been this entire gen and how it must be difficult finding something else to improve or add every year. Really?

Also, when someone in the community talks about how "it's just a video game" so what do people expect, it's just about having fun. For me "fun", enjoying a video game, is all about the expectations of that video game, set by what it is alleged to represent. A video game doesn't have to be realistic to be fun but a simulation video game does and that's the point.

To bring a conclusion to this rant I suddenly find myself on, if EA doesn't intend for Madden to be a realistic representation of NFL football in a video game, then they should stop claiming it or everyone should stop feigning surprise and making excuses when gamers rightly repeatedly criticize EA for not delivering that in Madden.

Big this is a company selling a product. We want integrity. We want fairness. The entire development team from the producers to the programmers may have that as their intent. But once that product leaves their hands and is into the hands of marketers who are thinking about legitimation and the survival and thriving of the company, you can take what we want and the producers and programmers want and ALMOST throw it out of the window. They have to push units and they will say what they need to say to do just that. It's unfortunate, but that's how corporations and institutions work.


On that last paragraph you have there. I think the producers and programmers are trying to do what they can to create a game that caters to markets. We might as well look at the tourney scene as a market, the offline franchise player as a market and we could keep going on and on. All of this while retaining their commitment to "simulation." Now we might have to admit, their picture of simulation is not the same picture we have in mind. When football game developers first used that word, it was in reference to player names and authentic uniforms, hence Tecmo Bowl. But that game was not even 11 on 11. As time progressed and Madden came along simulation took on a new layer of meaning. Not only was it player names and uniforms, but now stats, player ratings became a part of the equation. Next up, Franchise modes. Then we moved from there to the era where EA has always been weakest IMO. Animations, X's and O's. This is the era we are in right now.

[Franchise408]

Re: Madden Serenity

Just want to say you really hit the nail on the head here Road...

Honestly, sometimes I think it's us at OS who need the reality check. We have a standard to which we hold the game too, and it's a great thing that we have EA's ear to a degree. At the same time, OS is one of the larger gaming communities and it has - what - maybe 100K members. 5M people continue to run out and buy the game.

It begs the question, are we the ones who look at things in a vacuum?

Which is where my biggest problem of all lays - the exclusive license.

Without the exclusive, I was able to have an alternative to find that game that appealed to me, and I wouldn't have to play Madden.

Now that there is an exclusive, Madden now should be expected to cater to not only the 5M, but to the 100k that no longer have their alternative. So when Madden doesn't cater to what I want - after artificially eliminating the alternative that did cater to what I want - yes I am going to be vocal about what I see to be Madden's shortcomings.

If EA doesn't want these types of criticisms, then they shouldn't have bought out the exclusive license. But they did, so they brought these criticisms upon themselves.