Run/Pass Commit In Madden NFL 13 - Make it More Realistic

[Big FN Deal]

Re: Run/Pass Commit IN Madden 13 Make it More Realistic

To chime on this, as soon as I read the OP, I searched for this previous thread. http://www.operationsports.com/forum...post2043466625

I think it's a given that run/pass commit is an unrealistic band-aid to account for a lack of better individual player adaptive AI but so is other stuff. While I definitely feel where LBz is coming from, it would seem impossible to make this fundamentally unrealistic feature, realistic, it would have to be removed. There is no way to artificially make run/pass commit a realistic feature because it should be inherent in the game, when adequately representing fundamental football aspects, imo.

So the question is, imo, would we rather have this unrealistic band-aid until something realistic can be added or not?

That said, I think the understandable concern is that like with many unrealistic features, it has become so synonymous with Madden-ball and accepted by a majority of gamers, that EA/Tiburon will continue to fail to see the need to change it. Like Bezo and others allude to, the unrealistic fundamental football in Madden is built on a house of cards, adding one fake thing to counter another and if you remove one, the other is completely overpowering, bringing the whole thing crashing down.

So I guess run/pass commit is a necessary "evil" until adaptive AI, run fits, gap assignments, engaged player movement, etc can all be addressed too, imo.

[Bootzilla]

Re: Run/Pass Commit IN Madden 13 Make it More Realistic

And that's exactly what I think run commit should do. Have your guys make up for the lack of reading keys by giving them some gap responsibility.

I totally get where you're coming from. It's just in a video game many of the things we would key on based on on tendencies, stances, down and distance, etc. can't be accomplished because the game lacks that level of sophistication. That's why, knowing the inherent shortcomings, I don't mind the run/pass commit (caveat: as long as it isn't overpowering) as presently constituted.

In Madden too often in obvious down and distance DB's are biting on run fakes. If I pass commit I want those suckers playing the pass. I want my DE's going all out. Give up something (the run) to get something (the quarterback).

In Madden your play call generally wasn't enough in short yardage situations. Your defenders would just pitty pat and not sell out vs the run unless you brought linebackers and crashed your d-line. Now I'm not saying every time you run commit and guess right, you should automatically win in those situations. Ratings and such should still matter. But, if I sell out and they hit me with Spider 2 Y Banana that fullback is going to be open in the flat and I'm just going to have to live with it. But, if I don't sell out I'm essentially conceding a couple of yards when they out man me and run power.

[LBzrule]

Re: Run/Pass Commit IN Madden 13 Make it More Realistic

Ok, nice video. What does the pass commit do in Madden? Does it make the DE's get up field better or just make the secondary more aware?

Pass Commit seems to just make the secondary more aware. I think they can expand this to have the DE's have a wider arc rush and a deeper engagement with the tackle in the backfield. They need to because their line calls do not do the job at all.

[LBzrule]

Re: Run/Pass Commit IN Madden 13 Make it More Realistic

To chime on this, as soon as I read the OP, I searched for this previous thread. http://www.operationsports.com/forum...post2043466625

I think it's a given that run/pass commit is an unrealistic band-aid to account for a lack of better individual player adaptive AI but so is other stuff. While I definitely feel where LBz is coming from, it would seem impossible to make this fundamentally unrealistic feature, realistic, it would have to be removed. There is no way to artificially make run/pass commit a realistic feature because it should be inherent in the game, when adequately representing fundamental football aspects, imo.

So the question is, imo, would we rather have this unrealistic band-aid until something realistic can be added or not?

That said, I think the understandable concern is that like with many unrealistic features, it has become so synonymous with Madden-ball and accepted by a majority of gamers, that EA/Tiburon will continue to fail to see the need to change it. Like Bezo and others allude to, the unrealistic fundamental football in Madden is built on a house of cards, adding one fake thing to counter another and if you remove one, the other is completely overpowering, bringing the whole thing crashing down.

So I guess run/pass commit is a necessary "evil" until adaptive AI, run fits, gap assignments, engaged player movement, etc can all be addressed too, imo.

The bolded are the only reason why I started the thread Big. I don't like it, but if it is going to be in, give it something that we need in the game from a realistic standpoint although not all of those areas can be covered. But please don't make it arbitrary as it stands now in NCAA. The way it is there is just a complete waste of time IMO.

[rsamms]

Just curious lbz. Adembroski has stated on several occasions that he'd like to have you at community day again. I have always loved your posts on defense. Is there a reason you haven't attended?

[OG_McNabb]

Re: Run/Pass Commit IN Madden 13 Make it More Realistic

It's on the web. I'll give credit to the site. Credit to:http://www.buffalorumblings.com/2011...-kyle-williams

for the diagrams and btw, there is an entire article there that will talk about everything discussed in the original post with more diagrams on the Over and 46 fronts.

Thanks........I thought it was something you created.

[Tyrant8RDFL]

Re: Run/Pass Commit IN Madden 13 Make it More Realistic

I'm going to ask this question. Which defensive coordinator installs and teaches their defense this way? Who makes these kinds of calls? Do guys actually understand what goes into an NFL, NCAA, High School defense on the snap of the football? It is not what you guys are saying. Here is the problem with Madden and just calling a defense, it's exactly what you get when you use this feature as it is right now. Arbitrariness and freelancing. That's not good defensive principles.

Second, using this as a part of the play call would actually add what is missing from the game that needs to be there anyway. If you have played 2k this would be still similar to that in play call terms. In 2k you just had tied play calling. In here you would just be calling that stunt right before the snap at the line. You still can make the wrong call and be outmanned on the back side. It's just that gap principles would be in place. Nobody coaches all or nothing defense. And Madden should not be promoting that. Somebody tell me who does that?

I don't see how this defeats the purpose of play calling when what is here is actually a part of any NFL defensive snap. Also this is not about abuse. This is about what people say they want, realism. Do you guys want that or not? Or do you want to keep going with EA's all or nothing unrealistic way features work that does not match up to the way Defensive Coordinators install and call defenses?

I'm going to ask this question. Which defensive coordinator installs and teaches their defense this way? Who makes these kinds of calls? Do guys actually understand what goes into an NFL, NCAA, High School defense on the snap of the football? It is not what you guys are saying. Here is the problem with Madden and just calling a defense, it's exactly what you get when you use this feature as it is right now. Arbitrariness and freelancing. That's not good defensive principles.

Second, using this as a part of the play call would actually add what is missing from the game that needs to be there anyway. If you have played 2k this would be still similar to that in play call terms. In 2k you just had tied play calling. In here you would just be calling that stunt right before the snap at the line. You still can make the wrong call and be outmanned on the back side. It's just that gap principles would be in place. Nobody coaches all or nothing defense. And Madden should not be promoting that. Somebody tell me who does that?

I don't see how this defeats the purpose of play calling when what is here is actually a part of any NFL defensive snap. Also this is not about abuse. This is about what people say they want, realism. Do you guys want that or not? Or do you want to keep going with EA's all or nothing unrealistic way features work that does not match up to the way Defensive Coordinators install and call defenses?

No coordinator does that. What im just trying to say is that a feature like this should be a HR or a strikeout. In all honesty it should not even be in the game, because of what you stated. No one calls a defense like this. The thing is that it is in the game, so I just feel it needs to stay that way it is, so it does not get abused.

What you layed out was very intelligent, and well thought out, but to me everything should just be in your playcalling period, and not involve any other feature.

This whole commit feature is not accurate at all to the game, but I dont want to see something very nicely layed out implemented into it thus making playcalling not as important.

What you have makes the committ feature way to good, and too much of a aid for those that cant call of defense on their own.

You know the game without question, I just see it from a different prospective. Hopefully you can see where Im coming from. Im not down grading by any means what you presented here. I just dont want this feature utilized alot and the only way that can happen is by leaving it the way it is.

Again what you layed out will make this feature way too good. They should just remove the feature for Madden 14 or patch it out on 13.

[LBzrule]

Re: Run/Pass Commit IN Madden 13 Make it More Realistic

I totally get where you're coming from. It's just in a video game many of the things we would key on based on on tendencies, stances, down and distance, etc. can't be accomplished because the game lacks that level of sophistication. That's why, knowing the inherent shortcomings, I don't mind the run/pass commit (caveat: as long as it isn't overpowering) as presently constituted.

In Madden too often in obvious down and distance DB's are biting on run fakes. If I pass commit I want those suckers playing the pass. I want my DE's going all out. Give up something (the run) to get something (the quarterback).

I don't think anything I'm advocating here would go against that. As I said with pass commit they should have the DE's taking a wider arc to the QB and engaging the OT's deeper in the backfield, which would give up the draw, the off tackle. The runs that should be giving up in that type of situation.

In Madden your play call generally wasn't enough in short yardage situations. Your defenders would just pitty pat and not sell out vs the run unless you brought linebackers and crashed your d-line. Now I'm not saying every time you run commit and guess right, you should automatically win in those situations. Ratings and such should still matter. But, if I sell out and they hit me with Spider 2 Y Banana that fullback is going to be open in the flat and I'm just going to have to live with it. But, if I don't sell out I'm essentially conceding a couple of yards when they out man me and run power.

Here is the thing, let's hammer out the premise and hidden assumptions here. I'm operating from the standpoint that it is rare that there are sellouts. Secondly, even a sell out is predicated on a read. The sell out is the reaction to the read. What are the premises under which you are operating here? I don't see selling out like it currently is implemented as fundamental defensive football. Secondly, the play calling alone does not deal with the defensive issues in the game. The run commit actually should be the default line crash left or right. Unfortunately that's not how they designed it. If the default crash left or right were like the run commit left or right where the DL was not tied to the OL we would not be having this discussion except for gaps.

[speedy9386]

Re: Run/Pass Commit IN Madden 13 Make it More Realistic

Is it just me or does it seem like zone blitzes never work in madden?

[LBzrule]

Re: Run/Pass Commit IN Madden 13 Make it More Realistic

Just curious lbz. Adembroski has stated on several occasions that he'd like to have you at community day again. I have always loved your posts on defense. Is there a reason you haven't attended?

The CD events have always been the week prior to Spring break and I needed to teach those weeks so that my classes would not lose time. The first time I went it was in May I believe and school was out so I did not have to worry about the conflict.

[LBzrule]

Re: Run/Pass Commit IN Madden 13 Make it More Realistic

Thanks........I thought it was something you created.

I have done some in Power Point. They don't look as good as the diagram though. LOL

[LBzrule]

Re: Run/Pass Commit IN Madden 13 Make it More Realistic

No coordinator does that. What im just trying to say is that a feature like this should be a HR or a strikeout. In all honesty it should not even be in the game, because of what you stated. No one calls a defense like this. The thing is that it is in the game, so I just feel it needs to stay that way it is, so it does not get abused.

What you layed out was very intelligent, and well thought out, but to me everything should just be in your playcalling period, and not involve any other feature.

This whole commit feature is not accurate at all to the game, but I dont want to see something very nicely layed out implemented into it thus making playcalling not as important.

What you have makes the committ feature way to good, and too much of a aid for those that cant call of defense on their own.

You know the game without question, I just see it from a different prospective. Hopefully you can see where Im coming from. Im not down grading by any means what you presented here. I just dont want this feature utilized alot and the only way that can happen is by leaving it the way it is.

Again what you layed out will make this feature way too good. They should just remove the feature for Madden 14 or patch it out on 13.

Ok here is my question. How would you feel if the crash line left/right were exactly like run commit where the DL was not attached to the OL and the DLinemen hit the next gap over depending on which way you called the crash? I would prefer that actually to what I first typed out. Unfortunately, the crash left/right has no effect on run plays. But if this worked like I'm describing here then there would be no need for run commit IMO. It would simply duplicate what you could do with the crashes. I agree with you and Big. It should not be in the game. But if it is not going to be in the game, at least have the line crashes left and right have guys hitting the next gap over.

[JerzeyReign]

Re: Run/Pass Commit IN Madden 13 Make it More Realistic

I would argue the reverse. Get the technical aspects working, then vary the player's responses/execution based on traits in their DPP and ratings. Get the game "to think these terms" when it's resolving plays and the tendencies would be that much more impacting and meaningful while also allowing players who "play by the book" to execute more correctly as well.

Getting the front seven working and playing right would make the tendencies possible. Then when you see someone like Cole "playing 4-3" in a 3-4 scheme, you're compelled to either switch to 4-3, ship Cole off, or try him at 3-4 OLB or just deal with it and try to make it work in your own version of the 3-4. Maybe you'll have a way to make the MLB/Jack work like the 3-4 DE instead, scout bigger OLBs and work your scheme that way, etc.

Things like that are possible, imo, only when the foundation of the front seven is in place.

It'll also look more like a freelancer in the midst of a team-oriented scheme instead of just yet another example of bad gameplay.

Roger. Thats a good point but see, being an offensive coordinator in real life, I'd immediately want my offensive linemen to recognize that type of player and block him accordingly. We'd probably get into techniques and all that jazz eventually

[GiantBlue76]

Re: Run/Pass Commit IN Madden 13 Make it More Realistic

Here is a legitimate question - those of you who have actually been to Tiburon would hopefully be able to answer this. When they decide to add something like line crashes in the game, how do they go about designing it? Do they draw these up by talking with NFL coaches? Do they study film to understand how it is supposed to work?

In addition, how do they test it? Do they have people there who actually understand what the lineman should be doing for different fronts - or do they simply add the fronts as an aesthetic feature only?

[LBzrule]

Re: Run/Pass Commit IN Madden 13 Make it More Realistic

Is it just me or does it seem like zone blitzes never work in madden?

Different topic but definitely worthy of discussion. I hope they work better this year without having all the set up jazz. All I know is if NCAA 13 is any indication then there is going to be a huge problem in online play. The demo of that game has blitzes on the level of Madden 08 and I'm not talking about legitimate blitzing either. The Spy Blitz is also in the demo. That's the benefit of playing tournament guys. You pick up the thinking and then when the next game comes out you can test for yourself if the game has progressed and I'm sorry to say NCAA 13, unless they patch and find things fast, GOOD LUCK to those who purchase the game and play online.