Madden 13 emphasizing post-launch support

[justtxyank]

Re: Madden 13 emphasizing post-launch support

What questions are getting skirted?

Questions:

1) Is the Madden team "aware and looking into" the broken pass rushing system? OLB and DEs on the right side (ROLB, RE) can barely generate pressure unless facing a left handed quarterback while the LOLB and LE can generate pressure easily and glitch by the tackles on 5 step drops?

2) is the Madden team "aware and looking into" the fact that if a QB tries to scramble on the edge the offensive lines lets go of their blocking and there is no attempt by any player to block for the QB as he runs down field?

3) Is the Madden team "aware and looking into" the psychic play of the defense on PA passes and screen passes? The only solution is to set the Defensive Pass reaction time up to 100, but then that makes it way too easy to exploit curls and flats.

4) Is the Madden team "aware and looking into" the fact that if you trade for a player in CCM that has the same number as a player on your team they don't change to a new number? You end up with both players wearing the same number.

These are four issues that I would like to know about. I know you can't say whether they are patching them, but if you could address them in anyway that would be awesome.

[EmmdotFrisk]

Re: Madden 13 emphasizing post-launch support

I was just posting a few examples of the problems people in this thread are referencing. Their not perfect examples, but I think it gets the point across. There are scripted outcomes in Madden, and with the addition of the infinity engine, it's hard to disguise them. Players shift, and suction to each other as if it were 2010 and not 2012. The game makes plays happen instead of the players on the field and their ratings determining the outcome. Madden is more Call of Duty than actual football in the sense that playing COD after one play through, you know where the enemies are, what obstacle you will face, and remember how to get through the level. The same goes for Madden, once you play one team in the game, all of the other teams play exactly the same. The same things happen on each play each time. This doesn't happen in the NFL. IRL, teams design zone busters, but defenses disguise their zones, centers or Qb's call line protections and beast of a DT is almost always DP'd, in Madden, the computer may play cover 3 all game even though I've busted it for 50 unanswered points. Madden as a whole is like the "coin from the ear trick"...it's impressive until you know how it's done. All most of us want is for them to fix the basics or do a better job of hiding the fact that it hasn't.

I appreciate it Tre. I forwarded two of them over to the team. Sorry I didn't say that before. There is a lot of value to posts like yours. Like I said, the goal is to create a realistic game. Unfortunately being on forums isn't comparable to real life because we don't get to talk about it more fluidly.

I have seen just about everyone of moody's videos and he does a good job with them. Thanks again.

[GiantBlue76]

Re: Madden 13 emphasizing post-launch support

I was just posting a few examples of the problems people in this thread are referencing. Their not perfect examples, but I think it gets the point across. There are scripted outcomes in Madden, and with the addition of the infinity engine, it's hard to disguise them. Players shift, and suction to each other as if it were 2010 and not 2012. The game makes plays happen instead of the players on the field and their ratings determining the outcome. Madden is more Call of Duty than actual football in the sense that playing COD after one play through, you know where the enemies are, what obstacle you will face, and remember how to get through the level. The same goes for Madden, once you play one team in the game, all of the other teams play exactly the same. The same things happen on each play each time. This doesn't happen in the NFL. IRL, teams design zone busters, but defenses disguise their zones, centers or Qb's call line protections and beast of a DT is almost always double teamed, in Madden, the computer may play cover 3 all game even though I've busted it for 50 unanswered points. Madden as a whole is like the "coin from the ear trick"...it's impressive until you know how it's done. All most of us want is for them to fix the basics or do a better job of hiding the fact that it hasn't.

Great post and I'll add to this ...

We are hearing claims of "realism" is desired for Madden, yet what about the realistic elements that continue to not show up? I won't go into the actual player movement because it's already been beaten to death, but what about formation shifts? How about coverage shells? Real time injuries? A non-NFL licensed game that is 6 years old has those and these are just a couple of examples. I mean - what was the thinking when they were doing injuries? Did they not realize that having every player react the same way to an injury was really weak? Every player starts to get up then flops over like a dead fish. Every player does the exact same animations on certain plays AND at the EXACT same time.

I think the real issue is the thought process that the Madden developers use to make this game. Instead of attempting to bring the NFL into the game, they are constantly inventing things that make EA football some unrecognizable abomination of the sport. The potential is there to make the game great, but the implementation is horrific.

[12]

Re: Madden 13 emphasizing post-launch support

Remember seeing this before the game came out?

http://www.joystiq.com/2012/08/22/madden-13-emphasizing-post-launch-support-first-update-in-septe/

I have to admit, they got me. I really thought the post launch support was going to be better this year.

1 month later CCM is still almost unplayable because of the horrendous AI and the numerous frustrating bugs (injuries, auto-subs, playbooks, coach schemes, simulation stats, etc.)

So far all they have updated is gameface, fantasy draft, and post play physics. Not too mention we have not had any information whatsoever on if or when the next patch is coming and what it may have, aside from the generic "We're looking into it" comment.

Am I being too cynical or has the post-launch support been just as bad as it has been in the past?

They had me, too. If they release a CCM roster update in three weeks like what has been reported, we'll go a solid month without an update.

Too bad, it's really just too bad.

[EmmdotFrisk]

Re: Madden 13 emphasizing post-launch support

Great post and I'll add to this ...

We are hearing claims of "realism" is desired for Madden, yet what about the realistic elements that continue to not show up? I won't go into the actual player movement because it's already been beaten to death, but what about formation shifts? How about coverage shells? Real time injuries? A non-NFL licensed game that is 6 years old has those and these are just a couple of examples. I mean - what was the thinking when they were doing injuries? Did they not realize that having every player react the same way to an injury was really weak? Every player starts to get up then flops over like a dead fish. Every player does the exact same animations on certain plays AND at the EXACT same time.

I think the real issue is the thought process that the Madden developers use to make this game. Instead of attempting to bring the NFL into the game, they are constantly inventing things that make EA football some unrecognizable abomination of the sport. The potential is there to make the game great, but the implementation is horrific.

In order to bring NFL into the game you have to invent creative ways to do it. Because a video game is different than real life. Video games are more limited and Artificial Intelligence isn't to the level of I Robot.

[TreFacTor]

Re: Madden 13 emphasizing post-launch support

I appreciate it Tre. I forwarded two of them over to the team. Sorry I didn't say that before. There is a lot of value to posts like yours. Like I said, the goal is to create a realistic game. Unfortunately being on forums isn't comparable to real life because we don't get to talk about it more fluidly.

I have seen just about everyone of moody's videos and he does a good job with them. Thanks again.

I don't agree with everything Moody says, but for the most part he does know both football and sports video games. One of the things that I think leads to scripted outcomes in Madden (aside from the obious) is the blanket animations that all players are able to do in Madden no matter size or weight (e.g. DT flipping into the endzone after a fumble for a TD). If they varied the animations more (too many players {3 or more} perform the same animations at the same time) or even tied the animations to ratings (players with low agility wouldn't be able to hold their balance as well as players with poor agility...) this would at least give the impression that the outcomes aren't scripted. There's very little that changes from play to play in madden due to the animations, and any time you can get a certain outcome with 95% success rate due to the animations it leads to exploits and unrealistic gameplay (e.g. the computer plays the run the same no matter what the personnel is on the field. If I call 3 wide single back hb dive, the computer will come out in a 4-3 zone even though it's clearly mismatched by personnel.

Most people don't have an issue with a Guard or Center missing a block, it's how Madden portrays this and how it plays out that people have an issue with. If my Guard has a choice of two defenders to block, he should choose the most direct threat to the QB, make a choice and play it out win or lose, the way Madden chooses to display this is by the player swiveling in place with his hands out not attempting any other action.

There have to be better ways to disguise the "magic tricks" Madden uses, because we've seen them over and over again. My concern is that they feel it's adequate to continue in this fashion because although it's "ugly", for the most part it works. I'm certain they will have 14 cleaned up but the reconstruction or remodeling of the fundamentals should have been addressed in 07 instead of 14.

As always EmmdotFrisk, it's great to see someone from EA, GC get involved with the discussion even though some of that discussion is aggressive. I learned my lesson in 08, even as a frustrated early adopter at the time; I too once took my frustrations to the forums and in return got a lifemtime ban from EA and have since learned to

1-not buy the game until the second patch
2-express my opinions in a more constructive and collected manner

We want Madden to at least mimic football fundamentals even though its a game, and I think the devs should do a better job in fooling us as to how the accomplished it. (They almost got me with the no user replay in the demo...that was a good way to hide the problems...almost got me.)

[GiantBlue76]

Re: Madden 13 emphasizing post-launch support

In order to bring NFL into the game you have to invent creative ways to do it. Because a video game is different than real life. Video games are more limited and Artificial Intelligence isn't to the level of I Robot.

See Big's post above about the standard answer . Any reasonable person understands that. There are things that can be replicated better, but instead are invented.

[EmmdotFrisk]

Re: Madden 13 emphasizing post-launch support

See Big's post above about the standard answer . Any reasonable person understands that. There are things that can be replicated better, but instead are invented.

Ok well where do you draw the line. Because there will always be a challenge to achieve the 100%, you have to draw the line somewhere.

Where do you draw the line? How? And Why?

[tfctillidie]

Re: Madden 13 emphasizing post-launch support

AI playcalling cannot be fixed with a tuner but we know its a major issue.

When did you know it was a major issue?

When the public complained about it post release? Or when your QA team found it and it was marked "known shippable"?

[SECElit3]

Re: Madden 13 emphasizing post-launch support

When did you know it was a major issue?

When the public complained about it post release? Or when your QA team found it and it was marked "known shippable"?

Ouch............

[Mr_truthman.com]

Re: Madden 13 emphasizing post-launch support

In order to bring NFL into the game you have to invent creative ways to do it. Because a video game is different than real life. Video games are more limited and Artificial Intelligence isn't to the level of I Robot.

Once again, while your statement is true, A.I is not on the I-robot, Terminator Skynet level, APF does a better job with A.I than madden. And according to Versuz, Skynet has always been in Madden. Take a look.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npEeGsHuKqU&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[TreFacTor]

Re: Madden 13 emphasizing post-launch support

Ok well where do you draw the line. Because there will always be a challenge to achieve the 100%, you have to draw the line somewhere.

Where do you draw the line? How? And Why?

I think the better question is where has Madden drawn the line. The history of the game (this gen) would indicate that the devs drew the line at about 70%, just passing, it doesn't seem like they are willing to push the limits or cross that line. by now, everyone should be aware that gameplay is separate from everything else, and while everything else seems to improve, gameplay seems to have hit the proverbial wall even with the addition of IE. Again, 14 may be different, but the history of the game suggest otherwise.

[Danimal]

Re: Madden 13 emphasizing post-launch support

Do you think we aren't concerned with what the fans think? Why am I even on OS reading and interacting with everyone everyday.

Sorry for the delay in responding to this. Since you're asking me my opinion than you shall have an answer. No I really don't think you guys care as much as your try to portray. Talk is cheap, Actions speak louder. So convince me with actions. Here is why I think this is all just talk.

Are you saying that these bugs weren't know about before shipping?

- Zoom camera resetting
- Autosubs not working
- Accelerated clock not working in CCM human vs human games

None of that was caught ahead of time? None of it? I found these 3 things 30 minutes into my Season Ticket trial. These aren't interpretive things like DB reaction or AI. These are broken features.

What about advertised things like the web site. Sure it is functioning but it's missing a lot of features. Is it going to say coming soon until Madden 14 comes out?

I'm not asking for unadvertised things like player editing. I want things to actually work like they are suppose to work. That's called fixing bugs.

If you bought a toaster and it burnt your toast no matter what you set that little slider too would you continue to eat burnt toast or would you return the toaster?

Well as consumers we can't return this game, we're at a loss the moment we drop the money. So when you release a game with known features not working and you don't fix them that ruins you relationship with your customers.

I saw this happen with your NCAA Basketball game that is unplayable on the 360 because it crashes. EA never fixed that, so pardon my hesitance to believe you care when again I have a product with broken fundamental features and you say "we're looking into it"

You can look at AI play calling and pass rush and DB AI etc. You don't need to look at these things, they don't work so fix them.

[leathrneck34]

Re: Madden 13 emphasizing post-launch support

While I am on the fence with both perspectives, I can't stop but think about how I drop $40 at the movie theater with my fiance for 3 hours of entertainment, while Madden gives me at least 200 hours.

To each is own though.

I have to agree with you on that. But when you spend 40$ on a movie when you go into watch it the sound isn't constantly cutting out or the video isn't all grainy to where you can't see it. They don't have to make you wait while the crew has to reroll the film on to a projector. Once you pay that 40 bucks you go in and get to watch what you paid to see without any problems. What I'm trying to say is, you go in knowing you spent 40 dollars to watch a movie you chose and it works the first time. Nowhere else do you pay 60 dollars and have to wait months for updates so it works properly the first time. If you do you take it back from where you got it and get a different brand of the same product or a refund. The only thing you can do with Madden is get some of your cash back there are no other NFL games with a different name. That's all I'm saying end of rant. I do appreciate you coming in here and dealing with us though.

[wheelman990]

Re: Madden 13 emphasizing post-launch support

Emmdotfrisk, first, thanks for replying to all these questions the community has.

I have to agree with a lot of people who have said that to really show the community that EA is listening, they need to show us in their actions. I was really disappointed with Madden 13, because for one it didn't feel finished. I really felt like a beta tester. How did they miss all these obvious bugs like the camera's resetting after every play in CCM? It is mind boggling.

The thing I have harped on this year and hope EA has followed some of the video/photo examples is:

Graphics this year. The grass is all neon green like this year, why not just use darker greens? The zoom camera was placed so low you can't view play art or see defense to control the players. It tilts down after every play selection and really just looks like it was thrown in and never even check if it was playable. Not to mention, it won't work in CCM even if it was playable. Then there is the issue of the Xbox 360 version looking soft this year. Almost to the point of blurry. It may have removed all jaggies, but the soft picture is severely lacking clarity compared to madden 12. Detail is all but smeared to the point NFL 2k5, a old looking game, nearly looks the same during the actual gameplay periods.The lighting is clearly worse then last year, and doesn't look real at all. madden 12's lighting and colors were incredible. Madden 12's strongest features were it's graphic's(minus a few blotchy fields that needed corrected). Replay's look terrible compared to last years. I Guess overall it is just frustrating to see the series actually go backwards graphically.

*I know gameplay is more important then graphics, but I like to focus on graphic & presentation issues, so that is where my focus usually stays here on the boards. Hopefully I can point out some idea's that somehow get through to EA.

If you get time, check out my grass, lighting, and most important zoom/standard camera threads and maybe pass it on to the art dev.