If Done Well How Much Could OL/DL Play and Player Movement Improve Madden?

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  • kingsofthevalley
    MVP
    • May 2011
    • 1962

    #16
    Re: If Done Well How Much Could OL/DL Play and Player Movement Improve Madden?

    It would be a very significant improvement. I'm speaking on player movement alone, as I can deal with the way the line interaction is. The main thing this would change is pursuit and escape angles. Bottom line, it adds realism and a sense of accomplishment, both of which are severely lacking at the moment.

    There is no feeling of grinding/earning yards when running the football. There is no sense of accomplishment when playing defense and picking that perfect angle that denies the sideline AND the cutback because the movement is too "floaty". Those feelings were front and center on PS2/Xbox. On top of that, it just looks horrible when the avatars defy the laws of physics and move at unnatural angles. Last I checked, I 've never seen the word arcade in association with anything that had to do with marketing for Madden/NCAA. I know I've seen "football sim" before though.

    Thats pretty much it

    1. Adds realism
    2. Sense of accomplishment
    3. Looks better

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    • LBzrule
      Hall Of Fame
      • Jul 2002
      • 13085

      #17
      Re: If Done Well How Much Could OL/DL Play and Player Movement Improve Madden?

      Big I think I know what you are getting at. While OL/DL rewrites would address some things it's still not going to address other things like still being able to throw to WR's who are running double move routes, throw to them in 1 second and being able to click on and catch it. So until they make a decision to MAKE the user play realistically, OL/DL rewrites can only do so much.

      And that's a decision that EA has to make. The game has to be structured to where realism is played out in a framework and not simply structured around realistic outcomes/stats. Until they do this anything they do is only going to matter for so much. So they could write the best OL/DL ever, but if you still can motion a WR to the A gap and use him as a lead blocker and he gets to the second level and flattens linebackers who are just standing around doing nothing, then mehhhhh.

      Comment

      • RGiles36
        MVP
        • Jan 2008
        • 3957

        #18
        Re: If Done Well How Much Could OL/DL Play and Player Movement Improve Madden?

        I said this in another thread on OS a couple of months ago: Madden is not as good a game as few say it is, and it's not as bad as many say it is either. It's somewhere in the middle, but the game can't get over the hump because the largest pieces of the foundation have not been addressed.

        So my thoughts are that if player movement and OL/DL play are overhauled, all of a sudden the pieces of the Madden puzzle start to fit together. For example, people generally liked the enhancements to the passing game including the new catching system; those features would become instantly better if player movement is respected going forward. To add to that, how much better will the passing game feel when you actually have to step up in the pocket? Then, it would actually matter who your interior OL are.

        Those are just two quick examples of the impact of an overhaul to both areas in Madden. How much does physics improve with player movement, momentum, and locomotion taking precedence?

        My point is if they opt to address both areas in a high quality way come M25, I think we'll see that Madden wasn't as far away from the promise land as many thought. But it's hard for some to appreciate the enhancements year-to-year because the game has largely looked the same and I get that. Changes to player movement and OL/DL would finally have this game looking different.

        That said, this game is going to need resources poured into AI as well. Playcalling is just a slice.

        Originally posted by LBzrule
        Big I think I know what you are getting at. While OL/DL rewrites would address some things it's still not going to address other things like still being able to throw to WR's who are running double move routes, throw to them in 1 second and being able to click on and catch it.
        I'm going to take my offline bias out of the equation...

        ...but I have to say Tiburon is going to be chasing their tail [and they have been] by trying to craft this game to curb some of the un-sim tactics that gamers employ. If they stop this, then what? Gamers will come up with something else -- you can bank on that.

        To me, that's why the AI has been below standard in this game for SO long. Again, not just playcalling AI. Strategic AI. Individual player AI. Adaptive AI. All of it has seemingly been neglected b/c so much concentration has been placed on making the game "fair" for H2H games.

        I'm not AT ALL trying to create a divide between offline & online gamers. At all! I just think that the emphasis on preventing this and stopping that is futile. Create this game in a sim fashion and have the AI that supports that. A byproduct of a focus on AI will create a better competitive environment for all that play H2H exclusively. This seems to be the model that the developers for NBA2K employ.
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        • ch46647
          MVP
          • Aug 2006
          • 3515

          #19
          Re: If Done Well How Much Could OL/DL Play and Player Movement Improve Madden?

          This has been a great topic and conversation. What I was trying to say Big F'n is exactly what Rgiles said above. I am exactly like most on here, I believe Madden has been an absolute joke this generation. I appreciate Madden as a whole, because I have been playing since 92' and realize how much good the franchise has done for the sports gaming industry, until this generation. Somewhere along the line they lost their way with the direction and also built an extremely poor core engine to build off of.

          However, I do think they have been making strides over the last three years or so. Some areas of the game are beginning to improve and it seems with the building of new core parts of the engine, and the addition of personnel to the gameplay team, Madden is beginning to improve.

          With that said, this game will remain far behind other sports titles until they fix these two area's of the game. There are still many other areas that need addressesd, but the core of ANY game is movement/locomotion/footplanting, and the core of a FOOTBALL game is OL/DL interactions. They are not just behind every other sports game this generation in these areas, but they are also behind their own PS2 titles in these areas. Once these areas of gameplay are addressed (correctly), I agree with Rgiles that things will begin to fall in place.

          If players move, plant their feet, have momentum (acceleration/De-celeration), and correct running animations. Madden is going to IMMEDIATELY look, feel, and play completely different. If the OL/DL interactions and the way you play it are overhauled, the game is going to play completely different. With these two areas corrected, I believe many other areas will fall into place. The Madden team does need to correct the "physics" engine, and I would expect that to be much better this time around. I do wish they would go to a full physics engine like Backbreaker, rather then a conservative "animation based physics engine". I would expect that to happen for PS4....

          Comment

          • slick589
            Banned
            • Nov 2009
            • 1285

            #20
            Re: If Done Well How Much Could OL/DL Play and Player Movement Improve Madden?

            Great thread and great discussion.

            Heres how i see better player movement make Madden a better and more realistic game:

            1) No one not even the most agile rb of all time is able to run full speed and constantly change direction on a time without first slowing down. In madden i cant stand how easy it is to juke guys by just using the left stick. Players feel like the are hoovering above the field abd change direction at will. There is no resemblence of foot planting, acceleration, deceleration, friction, or physics when running with the football.

            2) pursuit angles are just horrible on the defense. The first and one of the most basic concepts taught to youth or new football players is pursuit. They are taught no to run to where the ball carrier is but where he is going and never to follow the same same color jersey to the balll carrier. In madden defenders PURPOSLY try to run BEHIND the ball carrier and it leads to all the defenders bunching up and chasing from directly behind.

            3) OL/DL interaction has been talked about for a while but what i hear less of is wr/db interaction. When the ball goes up in the air there is no fight for it. The wr and db work as indepentent entities that seem like they have no knowlesdge of each other being there. The basic concept for a db in real life is to use his hands to feel the wr and his eyes to find the ball then attack it. There is none of this hands on interaction in madden. The ball goes up the wr triggers an animation the the db triggers his own indepented animation there is no contact or interaction between the two.

            Comment

            • ch46647
              MVP
              • Aug 2006
              • 3515

              #21
              Re: If Done Well How Much Could OL/DL Play and Player Movement Improve Madden?

              Originally posted by slick589
              Great thread and great discussion.

              Heres how i see better player movement make Madden a better and more realistic game:

              1) No one not even the most agile rb of all time is able to run full speed and constantly change direction on a time without first slowing down. In madden i cant stand how easy it is to juke guys by just using the left stick. Players feel like the are hoovering above the field abd change direction at will. There is no resemblence of foot planting, acceleration, deceleration, friction, or physics when running with the football.

              2) pursuit angles are just horrible on the defense. The first and one of the most basic concepts taught to youth or new football players is pursuit. They are taught no to run to where the ball carrier is but where he is going and never to follow the same same color jersey to the balll carrier. In madden defenders PURPOSLY try to run BEHIND the ball carrier and it leads to all the defenders bunching up and chasing from directly behind.

              3) OL/DL interaction has been talked about for a while but what i hear less of is wr/db interaction. When the ball goes up in the air there is no fight for it. The wr and db work as indepentent entities that seem like they have no knowlesdge of each other being there. The basic concept for a db in real life is to use his hands to feel the wr and his eyes to find the ball then attack it. There is none of this hands on interaction in madden. The ball goes up the wr triggers an animation the the db triggers his own indepented animation there is no contact or interaction between the two.
              I agree, and the interesting thing is, Madden has the tools and programs within their own crop of games to make these things happen.

              1. FIFA- Locomotion and footplanting is as good as we have seen on this generation of sports games.

              2. NHL- The new physics based movement combining momentum, acceleration, and de-celeration is phenomenal.

              3. NHL- Using the L toggle button (press it in) to sprint is genius. It bothers me to no end that the sprint button doesn't even work in Maddden anymore. (auto sprint- off)

              4. FIFA- Jostling system. This would be PERFECT for WR/DB interaction. They just need to re-program it for football and add realistic animations.


              Why cant these things be done when these programs are already built, and successfully implemented in lower budget EA Titles... Madden is EA's flag ship game, and football is the most popular sport in America by a land slide.

              NHL and FIFA also have realistic ball/puck physics as well. Why cant the football be programmed to be free and not like a magnet....

              Comment

              • bucky60
                Banned
                • Jan 2008
                • 3288

                #22
                Re: If Done Well How Much Could OL/DL Play and Player Movement Improve Madden?

                The improvements the OP mentioned would be a welcome step forward, but still not enough for me to purchase the game. Still too many other things that need to be enhanced both game play and franchise. I won't mention those things since it's not the topic of this thread.

                I sure hope they work on much more in M25/14 than those few things in the OP. However, those OP improvements would be very welcome.

                Comment

                • GiantBlue76
                  Banned
                  • Jun 2007
                  • 3287

                  #23
                  Re: If Done Well How Much Could OL/DL Play and Player Movement Improve Madden?

                  Originally posted by RGiles36
                  I said this in another thread on OS a couple of months ago: Madden is not as good a game as few say it is, and it's not as bad as many say it is either. It's somewhere in the middle, but the game can't get over the hump because the largest pieces of the foundation have not been addressed.

                  So my thoughts are that if player movement and OL/DL play are overhauled, all of a sudden the pieces of the Madden puzzle start to fit together. For example, people generally liked the enhancements to the passing game including the new catching system; those features would become instantly better if player movement is respected going forward. To add to that, how much better will the passing game feel when you actually have to step up in the pocket? Then, it would actually matter who your interior OL are.

                  Those are just two quick examples of the impact of an overhaul to both areas in Madden. How much does physics improve with player movement, momentum, and locomotion taking precedence?

                  My point is if they opt to address both areas in a high quality way come M25, I think we'll see that Madden wasn't as far away from the promise land as many thought. But it's hard for some to appreciate the enhancements year-to-year because the game has largely looked the same and I get that. Changes to player movement and OL/DL would finally have this game looking different.

                  That said, this game is going to need resources poured into AI as well. Playcalling is just a slice.



                  I'm going to take my offline bias out of the equation...

                  ...but I have to say Tiburon is going to be chasing their tail [and they have been] by trying to craft this game to curb some of the un-sim tactics that gamers employ. If they stop this, then what? Gamers will come up with something else -- you can bank on that.

                  To me, that's why the AI has been below standard in this game for SO long. Again, not just playcalling AI. Strategic AI. Individual player AI. Adaptive AI. All of it has seemingly been neglected b/c so much concentration has been placed on making the game "fair" for H2H games.

                  I'm not AT ALL trying to create a divide between offline & online gamers. At all! I just think that the emphasis on preventing this and stopping that is futile. Create this game in a sim fashion and have the AI that supports that. A byproduct of a focus on AI will create a better competitive environment for all that play H2H exclusively. This seems to be the model that the developers for NBA2K employ.
                  I'm going to comment on the bolded pieces here.

                  I'm not sure that many people liked the passing game. For me, the passing game includes the QB and his ability to instantly throw the ball or the ability to have the ball come out just as he is getting sacked. I also hate the "change your receiver's route" nonsense. I'm an online league ONLY player, and guys get really good at it. Some guys stated that this feature would be damaging to defense when it was released because no matter what, the defense would always be in the wrong position. That is entirely the case. You have guys simply throwing to the opposite side the defender is on and the receiver instantly changes his route. 4 and 500 yard passing games are the norm. Combine that with the line play which neuters a proper pass rush and you no longer have football.

                  I don't think it's fair to say that Madden has been exactly the same, it's just that what they seem to think "addresses" something, just makes it equally bad in another way. They kill the headache by cutting off the head and take the path of least resistance.

                  Every game will have exploits, I can deal with that. There will always be some guy who finds SOMETHING. However, in the thousands of online games I played of 2k8 and 2k5, I don't ever recall getting "nano-blitzed" for example. Weird things happen from time to time in every game - I mean, it's a piece of software. I think this situation stems back to what I mention above. Their approach to how they fix something is the problem. Instead of building the fundamentals into the game from the ground up, they use band-aids, duct tape and chicken wire to quickly put something together to plug the leaks. For each 2 leaks they plug, they open another new one. It shouldn't be that hard to construct the game so you can't do these types of things and had they begun addressing these fundamentals 3 years ago, they'd be in great shape right now.

                  Fixing player movement will enhance the game dramatically, but my concern is this. What does Tiburon consider "fixed"? In all honesty, my confidence level of them implementing this properly is about as high as me thinking I'll be the next powerball winner. I look at the synchronous animations, the warping guards, the terrible WR/DB interactions, the twitchy, sudden movements, the poor running animations, etc. and I think to myself - This game needs a re-write. I guess we will see what comes out of it.

                  Comment

                  • RGiles36
                    MVP
                    • Jan 2008
                    • 3957

                    #24
                    Re: If Done Well How Much Could OL/DL Play and Player Movement Improve Madden?

                    Originally posted by tazdevil20
                    I'm not sure that many people liked the passing game. For me, the passing game includes the QB and his ability to instantly throw the ball or the ability to have the ball come out just as he is getting sacked. I also hate the "change your receiver's route" nonsense. I'm an online league ONLY player, and guys get really good at it.
                    I'm going to differ with you about the passing game. Yes, I know it was subject of controversy among some here, but if we think back the Madden & NCAA impression threads this past year, the passing game was one of the few bright spots.

                    I don't play M13 a whole lot for my own reasons, but I think it gets overstated when people suggest that the new passing mechanics are all-encompassing and/or unstoppable. It's not as though accuracy ratings were thrown out the window as result.

                    Also with the passing game, consider how much people bally-hooed over the years about throwing the ball whenever you wanted to. They removed that functionality with the pass-ready system in M13, which no one seems to talk about. It's probably a hair too forgiving, but it was a welcomed change as far as taking the passing game in a more sim direction.

                    All told, the passing game can stand to be improved. The only point that I was making was that people generally liked the passing game relative to past years, and an overhaul to player movement would seemingly make it even better.
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                    • raguel
                      Rookie
                      • Jun 2009
                      • 485

                      #25
                      Re: If Done Well How Much Could OL/DL Play and Player Movement Improve Madden?

                      Originally posted by RyanMoody21
                      Let's clear some things up, the "double moves" you thought you were controlling could have just been an animation. So while you thought it was user skill, just consider it was actually just a prolonged animation that just was timed well to your controler response. Reserve your thoughts on it and just assume that COULD have been the case.

                      Now, because the animations are so smooth of a transition with 2k I honestly am not so sure that its not true. I understand that goes against the core belief of many people, but just watching the games detailed and in slow motion for many years, that's became something my mind is open too.
                      I'm not sure what this means. Are you saying that the double move animation was triggered by my first action only? If that were true I should see it whenever I tried just one pass rush move. Also there were directional moves. If I was controlling a DE I'd rip outside and spin inside, so the 2k designers would have had to make, for example, a rip-left, spin-right combo animation and a rip -right spin-left animation instead of just a rip-left or rip-right.

                      The only thing that makes this whole bit reasonable is that it's been awhile since I've played and my memory may be faulty.

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                      • Big FN Deal
                        Banned
                        • Aug 2011
                        • 5993

                        #26
                        Re: If Done Well How Much Could OL/DL Play and Player Movement Improve Madden?

                        There is some good stuff being expressed in this thread so let me throw something out there for thoughts in line with the topic.

                        Is representing football an all or nothing task? "All" meaning the fundamentals that are essential to each other and "nothing" meaning any number of these fundamentals implemented without all of them being implemented is not representing football.

                        To tie this into the topic, I was wondering if just the two areas addressed in the OP would make M13 a complete football game. Does "fixing" the OL/DL play and player movement really improve the game or just break something else because it doesn't have the other elements needed to compliment it? The even bigger question is how many football functions need to be represented in Madden for it to be a complete football game? I think that's why some, including me, quite often have I hard time discussing football as a collage of individual independent parts in reference to Madden because we know the fundamentals of football are a collection of things that compliment and define each other, each being essential to the other.

                        I have such a hard time understanding EA Tiburon's piecemeal approach for implementing football in Madden because there doesn't seem to be any concept of implementing things that are essential to each other in football, together. Add IE to augment animations without "fixing" the animations it augments, add "throw a receiver open" without "fixing" how the ball is tethered to receivers, add "read and react" without "fixing" adaptive AI, etc. I don't know if this team working on Madden wants to implement real football in the game but I question the methodology they seem to be using being able to accomplish it.
                        Last edited by Big FN Deal; 03-03-2013, 03:18 PM.

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                        • MrJCOreo
                          Rookie
                          • Feb 2013
                          • 71

                          #27
                          Re: If Done Well How Much Could OL/DL Play and Player Movement Improve Madden?

                          Since I think this question is subjective I will answer subjectively. I don't want to seem like I'm ranting. I'm just going to try to paint a picture of where I'm coming from so I can make my answer to this thread a bit more impactful.

                          MY preferences in any football game (be it Madden, NCAA, or NFL 2K) is an offline franchise and building a team from the ground up into a perennial contender. To be able to do this, you need to know what your strengths are as a player and have a plan for setting the building blocks to your team's foundation. I like playing with a power running game and throwing in PA to take deep shots down the field when the defense bites on the run. In order to run this particular offense you need to have some maulers up front and a capable full-back. Having said all of this, do you know how often I get to run this kind of offense when I was actually playing? Hardly ever. Do you know why?

                          1) The fullbacks don't block ANYTHING about 95% of the time. Having a fullback in your formation will at times prove to be detrimental to you since your power-offense fullback will very rarely be an apt pass-catcher.

                          2) Your O-Line "maulers" don't get any push on the D-Line at all. They don't push the D-Line off the ball and they don't look for blocks at the second level leaving linebackers to roam free. I won't even touch on pulling guards.

                          3) Win/Loss scenarios during blocking animations cannot be accounted for when running a play and kill any sense of accomplishment. When you run for a 50 yd touchdown, do you actually feel like it was a great team effort that was executed perfectly or did the 2 or 3 suction blocks leading the way kill that for you? Or on defense, do you actually feel like Jadeveon Clowney when you blew that runner up or was it because the guard inexplicably decided to drop the block just as the runner approached the line of scrimmage?

                          With all of this being said, these issues forced me to play outside of my game for nearly the entire season if I wanted to win. So, come time for free agency and the draft, you have to improve your roster and CLEARLY, if your running game was performing so poorly, you need to improve the talent on your line, maybe the fullback or even the running back. So you go into the off-season making a myriad of adjustments so you can play to your game. You get stoked when the beginning of the season rolls around and come kick-off, guess what? The exact same problems that were plaguing you last year are still occurring.

                          The entire purpose for this drawn-out story is simply that when people say this should be the foundation of the game, it truly needs to be. Fixing O-Line and D-Line interactions/AI will allow you to play how YOU want to run your offense. How YOU want to call your defensive plays, i.e. blitzes with crazy pressure that aren't snuffed because of psychic lineman with suction blocking or a dominant front four that is utterly ineffective because of the Win/Loss scenarios.

                          If Madden improves on this, it not only changes the dynamics on the field but in the off-season as well because you will need to know EXACTLY what you want in a lineman to run your offense or to anchor your defense because football is won and lost in the trenches. As soon as the Madden team recognizes this, the sooner we can have a simulation we can enjoy (or at least one that I can ).

                          P.S. I'm not even going to touch on the player movements because the state it's in now doesn't even suspend the belief that it's real life so fixing that goes without question

                          Comment

                          • MrJCOreo
                            Rookie
                            • Feb 2013
                            • 71

                            #28
                            Re: If Done Well How Much Could OL/DL Play and Player Movement Improve Madden?

                            Bottom line for my above posting is it will allow the player to play to their game, allow plays to be executed properly or blown the heck up without feeling cheap, and in so doing increase the fun factor and sense of accomplishment.

                            Comment

                            • ch46647
                              MVP
                              • Aug 2006
                              • 3515

                              #29
                              Re: If Done Well How Much Could OL/DL Play and Player Movement Improve Madden?

                              This is one of the better discussions I have seen on these forums. Ton of great insight, and I hope there are still some developers lingering around to see these posts

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                              • raguel
                                Rookie
                                • Jun 2009
                                • 485

                                #30
                                Re: If Done Well How Much Could OL/DL Play and Player Movement Improve Madden?

                                Originally posted by Big FN Deal
                                Is representing football an all or nothing task? "All" meaning the fundamentals that are essential to each other and "nothing" meaning any number of these fundamentals implemented without all of them being implemented is not representing football.
                                I think it's subjective. For example playing the M13 demo, I really liked the improved passing system (although I felt it was more arcadey than I hoped), but horrible ol/dl and going backwards wrt dbs incorrectly lining up during no huddle were deal breakers.

                                To tie this into the topic, I was wondering if just the two areas addressed in the OP would make M13 a complete football game. Does "fixing" the OL/DL play and player movement really improve the game or just break something else because it doesn't have the other elements needed to compliment it? The even bigger question is how many football functions need to be represented in Madden for it to be a complete football game? I think that's why some, including me, quite often have I hard time discussing football as a collage of individual independent parts in reference to Madden because we know the fundamentals of football are a collection of things that compliment and define each other, each being essential to the other.
                                I don't think it would make Madden a complete football game. It will prevent me from ragequitting/regretting I bought the game in the first place.

                                I talk about different components of the game because that's EA's approach, and because they seem incapable/unwilling of improving multiple gameplay areas at once. Also because if I keep talking about all the things, big and small, I hate about Madden I'll probably go too far and get banned.

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