If Done Well How Much Could OL/DL Play and Player Movement Improve Madden?

[LBzrule]

Re: If Done Well How Much Could OL/DL Play and Player Movement Improve Madden?

I'm going to differ with you about the passing game. Yes, I know it was subject of controversy among some here, but if we think back the Madden & NCAA impression threads this past year, the passing game was one of the few bright spots.

I don't play M13 a whole lot for my own reasons, but I think it gets overstated when people suggest that the new passing mechanics are all-encompassing and/or unstoppable. It's not as though accuracy ratings were thrown out the window as result.

Also with the passing game, consider how much people bally-hooed over the years about throwing the ball whenever you wanted to. They removed that functionality with the pass-ready system in M13, which no one seems to talk about. It's probably a hair too forgiving, but it was a welcomed change as far as taking the passing game in a more sim direction.

All told, the passing game can stand to be improved. The only point that I was making was that people generally liked the passing game relative to past years, and an overhaul to player movement would seemingly make it even better.

Giles the thing with the passing game to me though is where EA went against themselves. They added passing icons. But the icons don't matter. If they would just say no the icons are going to matter then that addresses a lot already. The pass leading though and changing a route seems more to be about not allowing defender to move even when they are looking and allowing WR's to have eyes in the back of their head which doesn't make sense. This is what I mean when I say, EA gets to make a decision to make people play right by implementing stuff like (passing icons) this better. The way certain things are implemented it really appears like having a realistic sim game is so far from their thinking. I'm not saying it is. It does appear that way though.

[kjcheezhead]

Re: If Done Well How Much Could OL/DL Play and Player Movement Improve Madden?

I've heard from multiple "insiders" that EA basically thinks that 2k used entire mo caps for the line. So while it might look more realistic, the user lacked more control than maybe it appered.

With that logic, the shorter and "choppier" Madden animations could mean EA offers more control.

I'm actually willing to accept this to an certian degree. However, with the extreme limited animations has Madden is way to limited in interactions and outcomes.

It's just been proven that the defense actually sets the "Pocket" with Madden and despite changing the rush (inside,outside) has no true effect. The DEs always work outside, the DTs always inside.

Sometimes the user control needs to be limited imo. If you take a dlineman or lb and try an outside rush past an offensive tackle, that tackle should try and use your momentum against you and push you past the qb. A long animation should play out just fine in the case. EA's shorter animations means users can stop and rip to the inside all the while ignoring momentum, weight, physics all the way to the qb.

On the other hand, shorter animations were used to help with qb roll outs this year when prior longer animations meant players had to helplessly watch a qb take a sac.

EA needs to go through and decide when shorter animations are the way to go and when longer ones are because it's really a case by case basis.

[kjcheezhead]

Re: If Done Well How Much Could OL/DL Play and Player Movement Improve Madden?

I'm going to differ with you about the passing game. Yes, I know it was subject of controversy among some here, but if we think back the Madden & NCAA impression threads this past year, the passing game was one of the few bright spots.

I don't play M13 a whole lot for my own reasons, but I think it gets overstated when people suggest that the new passing mechanics are all-encompassing and/or unstoppable. It's not as though accuracy ratings were thrown out the window as result.

Also with the passing game, consider how much people bally-hooed over the years about throwing the ball whenever you wanted to. They removed that functionality with the pass-ready system in M13, which no one seems to talk about. It's probably a hair too forgiving, but it was a welcomed change as far as taking the passing game in a more sim direction.

All told, the passing game can stand to be improved. The only point that I was making was that people generally liked the passing game relative to past years, and an overhaul to player movement would seemingly make it even better.

Personnally I hate Madden 13's passing game, but at the same time acknowledge that it is much better than previous Madden.

The old passing system just threw the ball on a line. If you threw before a wr made a cut, most passes became fly routes. Compared to that, having better ball placement like 13 is an major improvement but it's so damned arcadey it's ridiculous imo.

What people were begging EA to implement was route based passing where the ball would be placed along the wrs route placing a premium timing and not giving players psychic powers. I believe EA chose the arcadey option because it was easier to implement than what was asked for, either that or the more user control crowd got a system more to their liking.

It was a game killer for me. When the passing system finally got overhauled and EA could choose which direction to take it, they chose arcade/user control as usual.

[Smoke6]

Re: If Done Well How Much Could OL/DL Play and Player Movement Improve Madden?

I agree so can you elaborate on specifically what you can see it changing about Madden and how it's played?

My bad man, my phone was tripping out lol...

It would imo, eliminate the silly tactics that occur in this game, from my understanding, with the new systems approaching and the tech under the hoods, it would really be an end for collision detection!

O-line interaction would make for a much more thought out tactical game with regards to the run and pass blocking. I want to see almost true to life animations that occur in the game like...

Getting a hand on a rusher

proper slide protection

realistic player movement with their hands and feet

its all about technique, and if they dont display any at all, its just like watching paint dry! Its more to this than just the O/d line interactions, it also has to be dynamic and an honest "no 2 plays will be alike"!

Without this, then the game will remain the same!

[reddogmaddogbul]

Re: If Done Well How Much Could OL/DL Play and Player Movement Improve Madden?

I understand that these things are essential for representing football but I am asking a more specific question in relation to Madden. Seeing as it's unlikely we will see all the major changes needed in Madden this year, these two seem like a good guess for what they will try to get to for M25. So what and how big an impact do you think these two things can have on Madden, even if other issues go unaddressed? Another way of wording the question is, how improved would M13 be overall if the OL/DL play and player movement were fixed?

Its all about the TRENCHES!!!Games are WON and LOST in the TRENCHES!!!Don't believe me just watch!!
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/8u_dlz3ntT4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[BezO]

Re: If Done Well How Much Could OL/DL Play and Player Movement Improve Madden?

I think the player movement & interaction would improve the game exponentially. It would fix the spacing & timing of the game. Like someone said earlier, having players move about realistically is the foundation of any game. Not much matters until that's addressed. AI and ratings CAN'T be accurate, for example.

I agree with Russ in that other areas will shine once you address the locomotion & interaction. There's probably some good there that can't be seen due to the unrealistic movement. I also think the bad that's there will be that much more obvious, shining a light on exactly what the problems are.

With better interaction animations available, players can carry out task they couldn't. Edge rushing and contain for example. Can't tell a player what to do if he doesn't have the animation vocabulary to do it. And with realistic movement, they can now give players reads & reactions that will be carried out up to, yet not exceeding a player's physical abilities. A DB breaking on a pass for example. Imagine how much better ratings could be.

Addressing the locomotion & interaction will give them the foundation to build on. I think it opens the door to giving every player realistic assignments, reads, reactions & ratings. Imagine how much AI & ratings shenanigans HAVE to be in the game to account for the lack of realistic movement & interaction? A toss play, for example. With no engaged player mobility, how are the outcomes of these plays kept in check? Is block breaking made easier than it should be to account for the lack of contain? Is the tackling ability of DBs increased? Are defenders sped up? Without foot planting, are tackling abilities boosted across the board? Are pursuit angles manipulated? And is the "cheating" limited to intended areas or are they spilling over to unintended areas? How much time is spent accounting for the missing building blocks of a simulation?

[kingsofthevalley]

Re: If Done Well How Much Could OL/DL Play and Player Movement Improve Madden?

Its all about the TRENCHES!!!Games are WON and LOST in the TRENCHES!!!Don't believe me just watch!!
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/8u_dlz3ntT4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I cant lie, that line play was beautiful in All Pro. Thats the long animations that were mentioned earlier in this thread. Contrary to Tiburons belief, those type of animations (specifically for line play) are exactly what Madden needs when it comes to being immersed into what you're playing/watching. I want to SEE the line interactions play out exactly as I see them when I'm watching a real game. I also want to feel it. Link it to the control, as you can see first hand in this video, it is most definitely possible to make happen.

[Smoke6]

Re: If Done Well How Much Could OL/DL Play and Player Movement Improve Madden?

I cant lie, that line play was beautiful in All Pro. Thats the long animations that were mentioned earlier in this thread. Contrary to Tiburons belief, those type of animations (specifically for line play) are exactly what Madden needs when it comes to being immersed into what you're playing/watching. I want to SEE the line interactions play out exactly as I see them when I'm watching a real game. I also want to feel it. Link it to the control, as you can see first hand in this video, it is most definitely possible to make happen.

To add to this, please do not make playmakering as shoddy as its been this whole generation! Im tired of seeing the same tactic used regardless of the play being called and it still works like a charm.

I would love to assign a double team or a pulling linemen to block these exploited gaps and do it properly. Most of these guys that are used to exploit these A and B gaps shouldnt hold a candle to a linemen unless its a true pass rushing LB and there's very few of them out there. I should see Safeties and LBs on there backs or locked up in a block unable to shed like they do now.

Situated tackles would also be helpful, what I mean, is the angles of the tackles being made in relation to the ball carrier and the size and strength should have a greater impact on the game. I dont see too many corners making tackles Marshawn Lynch from the side. On top of that, this game has DB's making jarring hits when most of them dont even hit as hard or above the waist like they do in madden. Its mostly thigh to below the knee tackles and even most of those arent as successful.

Sorry I got off track, but part of it does have to do with the play at the line as its peoples tendacies to exploit these gaps at the line without the need to get "skinny" or conform their body to get thru their intended gap. Football is a "guessing game" in every aspect and facet of the game. U guess wrong, then you pay the consequences and thats what makes the sport what it is today!

[Big FN Deal]

Re: If Done Well How Much Could OL/DL Play and Player Movement Improve Madden?

I think the player movement & interaction would improve the game exponentially. It would fix the spacing & timing of the game. Like someone said earlier, having players move about realistically is the foundation of any game. Not much matters until that's addressed. AI and ratings CAN'T be accurate, for example.

I agree with Russ in that other areas will shine once you address the locomotion & interaction. There's probably some good there that can't be seen due to the unrealistic movement. I also think the bad that's there will be that much more obvious, shining a light on exactly what the problems are.

With better interaction animations available, players can carry out task they couldn't. Edge rushing and contain for example. Can't tell a player what to do if he doesn't have the animation vocabulary to do it. And with realistic movement, they can now give players reads & reactions that will be carried out up to, yet not exceeding a player's physical abilities. A DB breaking on a pass for example. Imagine how much better ratings could be.

Addressing the locomotion & interaction will give them the foundation to build on. I think it opens the door to giving every player realistic assignments, reads, reactions & ratings. Imagine how much AI & ratings shenanigans HAVE to be in the game to account for the lack of realistic movement & interaction? A toss play, for example. With no engaged player mobility, how are the outcomes of these plays kept in check? Is block breaking made easier than it should be to account for the lack of contain? Is the tackling ability of DBs increased? Are defenders sped up? Without foot planting, are tackling abilities boosted across the board? Are pursuit angles manipulated? And is the "cheating" limited to intended areas or are they spilling over to unintended areas? How much time is spent accounting for the missing building blocks of a simulation?

Quality post sir and you raise some really good questions. My concern is that the desire or interest maybe there with the current team to emulate these things well, ie fix them but again I am not sure about the methods. I think that simple point causes more angst between people passionate about NFL gaming than it should. It can seem some "hate" EA or might actually lead to that, while others are acknowledging the effort being put forth by Tiburon but the end result has been that the game still doesn't represent football elements realistically at this point.

I realize I am veering off topic but it kind of puts my thread into a wishlist category when I think about the fact that almost nothing I can think of they have addressed in Madden the last 8 editions has resulted in them "fixing" it, ie making it perform realistically. Maybe there needs to be an entirely different thread on the topic but what element(s) of football function realistically, not just better than other next-gen Maddens, in M13, after 8 years of making Madden on these consoles?

To try to bring my post on topic, if those things in the OP are "fixed" either truly or just in the usual incremental manner, I wonder how much their potential impact to change how Madden is played would be effected by other things. Not just other things in the game like a player movement "fix" being effected by an inadequate ratings system or poor pursuit angles but also the methodology behind it all, like an OL/DL play "fix" being effected by a lacking animation library and an over emphasis on User control.

If the intent of the devs has really changed to being committed to realism I wonder at what point does the developmental methodology and ultimately the game itself reflect that. I started this thread in an attempt to try to take an optimistic POV on what these things could mean for Madden but a logical analysis seems to lead me to a pessimistic one.

[simfballcritic]

Re: If Done Well How Much Could OL/DL Play and Player Movement Improve Madden?

I said this in another thread on OS a couple of months ago: Madden is not as good a game as few say it is, and it's not as bad as many say it is either. It's somewhere in the middle, but the game can't get over the hump because the largest pieces of the foundation have not been addressed.

So my thoughts are that if player movement and OL/DL play are overhauled, all of a sudden the pieces of the Madden puzzle start to fit together. For example, people generally liked the enhancements to the passing game including the new catching system; those features would become instantly better if player movement is respected going forward. To add to that, how much better will the passing game feel when you actually have to step up in the pocket? Then, it would actually matter who your interior OL are.

Those are just two quick examples of the impact of an overhaul to both areas in Madden. How much does physics improve with player movement, momentum, and locomotion taking precedence?

My point is if they opt to address both areas in a high quality way come M25, I think we'll see that Madden wasn't as far away from the promise land as many thought. But it's hard for some to appreciate the enhancements year-to-year because the game has largely looked the same and I get that. Changes to player movement and OL/DL would finally have this game looking different.

That said, this game is going to need resources poured into AI as well. Playcalling is just a slice.



I'm going to take my offline bias out of the equation...

...but I have to say Tiburon is going to be chasing their tail [and they have been] by trying to craft this game to curb some of the un-sim tactics that gamers employ. If they stop this, then what? Gamers will come up with something else -- you can bank on that.

To me, that's why the AI has been below standard in this game for SO long. Again, not just playcalling AI. Strategic AI. Individual player AI. Adaptive AI. All of it has seemingly been neglected b/c so much concentration has been placed on making the game "fair" for H2H games.

I'm not AT ALL trying to create a divide between offline & online gamers. At all! I just think that the emphasis on preventing this and stopping that is futile. Create this game in a sim fashion and have the AI that supports that. A byproduct of a focus on AI will create a better competitive environment for all that play H2H exclusively. This seems to be the model that the developers for NBA2K employ.

I have nothing to say after this reply by Giles, My thoughts exactly!

[Smoke6]

Re: If Done Well How Much Could OL/DL Play and Player Movement Improve Madden?

but I have to say Tiburon is going to be chasing their tail [and they have been] by trying to craft this game to curb some of the un-sim tactics that gamers employ. If they stop this, then what? Gamers will come up with something else -- you can bank on that.

Let them try, hopefully the game would be so dynamic that by the time whatever tricks and exploits they figure out we would all be ready for the next iteration.

Every game has exploits, thats understood, and the main reason for this is the predictable AI that you can manipulate in practice mode to your hearts content. Then u have guys who "youtube" the garbage online and thats what really kills competition imo!

Know one is themselves and before "youtubing" madden tips became a thing you could easily separate the men from the boys. Now everyone goes and youtubes the latest gimmicks and run from their. The game makes it too easy for players to pick up that kinda of stuff.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: If Done Well How Much Could OL/DL Play and Player Movement Improve Madden?

...That said, this game is going to need resources poured into AI as well. Playcalling is just a slice.



I'm going to take my offline bias out of the equation...

...but I have to say Tiburon is going to be chasing their tail [and they have been] by trying to craft this game to curb some of the un-sim tactics that gamers employ. If they stop this, then what? Gamers will come up with something else -- you can bank on that.

To me, that's why the AI has been below standard in this game for SO long. Again, not just playcalling AI. Strategic AI. Individual player AI. Adaptive AI. All of it has seemingly been neglected b/c so much concentration has been placed on making the game "fair" for H2H games.

I'm not AT ALL trying to create a divide between offline & online gamers. At all! I just think that the emphasis on preventing this and stopping that is futile. Create this game in a sim fashion and have the AI that supports that. A byproduct of a focus on AI will create a better competitive environment for all that play H2H exclusively. This seems to be the model that the developers for NBA2K employ.

I agree with much of this and have been preaching a similar sentiment for quite awhile now. Even during the M13 hype, when everyone was trying to guess what the big feature was, I was harping on how it should be upgraded AI.

Where I disagree is about AI not being upgraded due to them being too focused on artificially fixing exploits opposed to just emulating football to organically deal with them. Now I am not saying that type of focus isn't happening because I strongly believe it is but I am saying I don't think that's why the AI hasn't been upgraded. I think the reason is due to the perception that AI and User control need to be balanced or are at odds with each other, much like the equally confusing act, of that perception being applied to realism and fun. I really don't understand why more gamers don't express their displeasure whenever anyone from Tiburon or affiliated with Madden states "the game is not made for CPU v CPU". That's a direct admission to why AI is lacking because no matter how anyone chooses to play Madden, the vast majority of the game is AI v AI, ie CPU v CPU.

Some people may think of me as an EA Tiburon/Madden hatemonger and their entitled to their opinion but I don't understand the seeming selective hearing some have when it comes to what Tiburon states about Madden. I remember in the movie Talladega Nights, Ricky Bobby believed that as long as he said "with all due respect", no matter how disrespectful what he said after that, it really wasn't disrespectful. That's how some people seem to treat Tiburon, as long as Tiburon says "our goal is to make Madden an authentic NFL simulation", no matter what they say or actually do after that, an authentic sim is still believed to be their goal.

[SmittyD81]

Re: If Done Well How Much Could OL/DL Play and Player Movement Improve Madden?

I said this in another thread on OS a couple of months ago: Madden is not as good a game as few say it is, and it's not as bad as many say it is either. It's somewhere in the middle, but the game can't get over the hump because the largest pieces of the foundation have not been addressed.

So my thoughts are that if player movement and OL/DL play are overhauled, all of a sudden the pieces of the Madden puzzle start to fit together. For example, people generally liked the enhancements to the passing game including the new catching system; those features would become instantly better if player movement is respected going forward. To add to that, how much better will the passing game feel when you actually have to step up in the pocket? Then, it would actually matter who your interior OL are.

Those are just two quick examples of the impact of an overhaul to both areas in Madden. How much does physics improve with player movement, momentum, and locomotion taking precedence?

My point is if they opt to address both areas in a high quality way come M25, I think we'll see that Madden wasn't as far away from the promise land as many thought. But it's hard for some to appreciate the enhancements year-to-year because the game has largely looked the same and I get that. Changes to player movement and OL/DL would finally have this game looking different.

That said, this game is going to need resources poured into AI as well. Playcalling is just a slice.



I'm going to take my offline bias out of the equation...

...but I have to say Tiburon is going to be chasing their tail [and they have been] by trying to craft this game to curb some of the un-sim tactics that gamers employ. If they stop this, then what? Gamers will come up with something else -- you can bank on that.

To me, that's why the AI has been below standard in this game for SO long. Again, not just playcalling AI. Strategic AI. Individual player AI. Adaptive AI. All of it has seemingly been neglected b/c so much concentration has been placed on making the game "fair" for H2H games.

I'm not AT ALL trying to create a divide between offline & online gamers. At all! I just think that the emphasis on preventing this and stopping that is futile. Create this game in a sim fashion and have the AI that supports that. A byproduct of a focus on AI will create a better competitive environment for all that play H2H exclusively. This seems to be the model that the developers for NBA2K employ.

I'm with SimF and Giles on this one 1000%

[jpdavis82]

Re: If Done Well How Much Could OL/DL Play and Player Movement Improve Madden?

I agree with Rgiles, Sim, and Smitty, but like I said when Madden 25 was announced as the official name, if Madden 25 doesn't properly address player movement, it will be a failure. There is nothing more important to Madden 25 than correcting the way the players move.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: If Done Well How Much Could OL/DL Play and Player Movement Improve Madden?

I agree with Rgiles, Sim, and Smitty, but like I said when Madden 25 was announced as the official name, if Madden 25 doesn't properly address player movement, it will be a failure. There is nothing more important to Madden 25 than correcting the way the players move.

I'm glad you posted this so I can bring up a point I did in another thread which likely got overlooked. If you believe player movement not being properly addressed in M25 equates to that game being a failure, then how can you believe M13 is anything but a failure? We all know player movement wasn't even addressed at all in that game, much less properly, so there shouldn't be a double standard, right?

This is exactly what I was referring to in another thread in regard to anyone that played M13 when it was being developed and me not understanding how it could be considered an acceptable football sim with player movement that way. However, the moment it is fixed or at least addressed in a new edition, it will be admitted by Tiburon and it's affiliates how crucial it is for representing football and how trash the previous editions that didn't have it were. Even worse, those that dare call out M13 as a failure of a football sim due to player movement, among other things, before it's fashionable to do so when a new edition has addressed it, are labeled EA/Madden hatemongers, perfectionist, other company fanboys, etc. SMH

On topic, these fixes could provide a more distinct differential between each players performance on the field and therefore various team dynamics. So a team with strong pass rush personnel should be able to have success with a less skilled secondary versus a team with weaker pass rush personnel needing to have a better secondary and/or better blitz schemes to compensate.