Madden NFL 25 Defense and Blocking Gameplay Roundtable (UTC)

[jpdavis82]

Under The Code has posted their Madden NFL 25 defense and blocking gameplay roundtable, which includes discussion from a few guys that have had hands-on time with the game.

It has been nearly ten years since the “Hit Stick” was first introduced to Madden NFL and football video gamers everywhere. How important do you think it is that the introduction of Force Impact to the Infinity Engine this year will bring the “Hit Stick” back to the forefront of defense in Madden NFL 25?

Buckeye: I think it’s the obvious step that they had to take this year with the heavy focus on the running game. However, the Hit Stick has never been right and I don’t feel that it will be this year either. In the Madden NFL series the Hit Stick has exponentially increased the chance of the ball carrier fumbling the football; so much to the point that in online leagues users just look for fast defenders that have high hit power so they can force a ridiculous number of turnovers. If you are a real fan of professional football you will not see big hits causing fumbles consistently by any stretch of the imagination. Fumbles are caused by: poor carry technique, direct defender contact to the ball, and the defender attempting to strip the ball loose during the tackle. If the Madden NFL series is to get this right, the Hit Stick needs to cause an accelerated rate of fatigue and a higher chance of injury to BOTH the offensive and defensive players involved in the hit.

[juggalotusx]

Re: Under The Code: Blocking and Defensive Gameplay Roundtable

IMO when EA tries to do so many things they never finish it 100% and it always leaves alot to be desired. I hope they still remembered to fix the little things in madden like assists,replay,challenges and such. I do really like what they have been putting out for info and madden 25 does sound like its going to be a good game, a game we should have had years ago but I hope with all the new things on offense and defense they dont cancel each other out.

[californ14]

Re: Under The Code: Blocking and Defensive Gameplay Roundtable

Cool -

One thing I disagree with already in one of the comments is: "the Hit Stick needs to cause an accelerated rate of fatigue and a higher chance of injury to BOTH the offensive and defensive players involved in the hit."

Defensive players should not be as effected by the hit stick IMO, beyond what the chances already are for injury....I have not done any actual number collections but from my 30+ years of watching football it tells me that the hitter is less likely to be injured from a crushing shot....

[Big FN Deal]

Re: Under The Code: Blocking and Defensive Gameplay Roundtable

Cool -

One thing I disagree with already in one of the comments is: "the Hit Stick needs to cause an accelerated rate of fatigue and a higher chance of injury to BOTH the offensive and defensive players involved in the hit."

Defensive players should not be as effected by the hit stick IMO, beyond what the chances already are for injury....I have not done any actual number collections but from my 30+ years of watching football it tells me that the hitter is less likely to be injured from a crushing shot....

When people like myself refer to the the hit stick needing to have an increased chance of injury to the defender, we are referring to the "spamming" of it, ie poor technique, no regard for personnel . There are many occurrences in the NFL when defenders have tried to deliver big hits but used poor technique, ie not seeing what they hit and their neck getting driven in or going low getting kneed in the head, that's what should be represented in Madden when Users choose to attempt a hit stick without any regard for lining the hit up properly.

EDIT- To be a little more clear, things like the defenders weight, in relation to the ball carrier's weight, the point of the tackle, ie high/low and the Tackle rating of the defender, should come into play. For example a defender with high hitting power but a poor tackle rating, should be capable of delivering a big hit, with an increased chance of hurting themselves, as well as not wrapping up, due to poor technique.

[azdawgpound]

Re: Under The Code: Blocking and Defensive Gameplay Roundtable

im glad the paided attention to dive tackling i can't tell ya how many times i've dove at a wr feet or rb and hit the player but had nothing happen and he just keep running for long td's. now maybe i wont be giving up huge play after huge play if this is truely fixed in 25.

i havent heard anything about the cb glitch though that's in 13 that just leaves the cb standing there as the wr runs by for easy td's.... has that been fixed for 25?

[californ14]

Re: Under The Code: Blocking and Defensive Gameplay Roundtable

When people like myself refer to the the hit stick needing to have an increased chance of injury to the defender, we are referring to the "spamming" of it, ie poor technique, no regard for personnel . There are many occurrences in the NFL when defenders have tried to deliver big hits but used poor technique, ie not seeing what they hit and their neck getting driven in or going low getting kneed in the head, that's what should be represented in Madden when Users choose to attempt a hit stick without any regard for lining the hit up properly.

Seems to me, players with a low power hit rating should just not have a good chance to initiate a hard hit to begin with, even if the user attempts one...

As for injuries I still have to disagree: getting a knee in the head I see as a mishap of playing football, and in this case, tackling at the knees, and maybe more likely happening when a smaller back tackles a big ball carrier intelligently, as the smaller defender realizes that hitting high will do himself more damage against a bigger opponent and potentially cause the defender to miss the tackle all together.

I believe all players going in for a tackle has solid vision, just there is that point of imminent contact where I believe we have a tendency to prepare for impact, including closing our eyes, like a shark. A lot of the helmet to helmet contact, IMO, is the direct result of the target trying to duck out of the way of the hit and thus making a poor decision to put their head in the path of the hitter's helmet and thus not a fault of the hitter using poor technique...

[Big FN Deal]

Re: Under The Code: Blocking and Defensive Gameplay Roundtable

Seems to me, players with a low power hit rating should just not have a good chance to initiate a hard hit to begin with, even if the user attempts one...

As for injuries I still have to disagree: getting a knee in the head I see as a mishap of playing football, and in this case, tackling at the knees, and maybe more likely happening when a smaller back tackles a big ball carrier intelligently, as the smaller defender realizes that hitting high will do himself more damage against a bigger opponent and potentially cause the defender to miss the tackle all together.

I believe all players going in for a tackle has solid vision, just there is that point of imminent contact where I believe we have a tendency to prepare for impact, including closing our eyes, like a shark. A lot of the helmet to helmet contact, IMO, is the direct result of the target trying to duck out of the way of the hit and thus making a poor decision to put their head in the path of the hitter's helmet and thus not a fault of the hitter using poor technique...

I won't post video because some of that stuff is cringe worthy but feel free to check Youtube for NFL defenders using poor technique, not seeing what they hit and getting injured. Here is an ESPN article on one such occurrence and it something that I think needs to be in Madden as a risk/reward for just hit sticking at will, with little, to no regard for personnel, ratings or lining up for the hit.

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/62259/brandon-hardin-injury-how-not-to-tackle

[californ14]

Re: Under The Code: Blocking and Defensive Gameplay Roundtable

I won't post video because some of that stuff is cringe worthy but feel free to check Youtube for NFL defenders using poor technique, not seeing what they hit and getting injured. Here is an ESPN article on one such occurrence and it something that I think needs to be in Madden as a risk/reward for just hit sticking at will, with little, to no regard for personnel, ratings or lining up for the hit.

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/po...-not-to-tackle

Not saying these types of injuries do not happen, but they are not specifically "hard hit" related...I agree that they are poor technique related, for a good part, but that should be calculated on an attribute like tackling or awareness, or maybe we need a "discipline" rating? Most hard hits, I am aware of, involve the shoulder and a method of "popping" at the right moment rather than leading with your head.

Ronnie Lott:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYFOXPUKBcA

Atwater on Akoye:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvPxzQBIafo

Thus my position is that "Hit Stick" that should not determine injury rate, but some other attributes involving skill, technique, discipline or tackle, or just the regular injury rating...

As I mentioned previously, a lot of times it is the receivers actions that lend to injuries, at least to ball carriers. Watch the Tatum hit on WR Stingley; Tatum hit him fairly and with good technique, Stingley ducked his head down and sadly paid for his poor technique in taking a hit...

[Big FN Deal]

Re: Under The Code: Blocking and Defensive Gameplay Roundtable

Not saying these types of injuries do not happen, but they are not specifically "hard hit" related...I agree that they are poor technique related, but that should be calculated on an attribute like tackling or awareness, or maybe we need a "discipline" rating? Most hard hits, I am aware of, involve the shoulder and a method of "popping" at the right moment rather than leading with your head.

Ronnie Lott:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYFOXPUKBcA

Atwater on Akoye:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvPxzQBIafo

Thus my position is that "Hit Stick" that should not determine injury rate, but some other attributes involving skill, technique, discipline or tackle, or just the regular injury rating...

As I mentioned previously, a lot of times it is the receivers actions that lend to injuries, at least to ball carriers. Watch the Tatum hit on WR Stingley; Tatum hit him fairly and with good technique, Stingley ducked his head down and sadly paid for his poor technique in tacking a hit...

What you seem to not be understanding that I am stating is that due to the fact that in Madden most Users will use the "hit stick" as a routine tackle mechanic versus the skilled timed occasional technique like in the real NFL, the chance for injury should be consistent with that "abuse". I want the game to reasonably account for the in-game players having virtual bodies that can wear down and "break", not have Users spamming the hit stick all game with no regard for the toll on the defender, as well as attempting to hit stick with anybody. I don't want to see Deangelo Hall hit sticking TEs and only getting run over, not hurt or even Patrick Willis hit sticking small backs every tackle from the 1st to the 4th quarter.

All that said, I am hoping that with the fatigue meter hit sticking now has a tangible cost that may effect a defenders health over the course of a game and potentially a career. Also hopefully they brought over a fleshed out version of the wear n tear system from HC09 because football is a violent sport and all that contact wears down defenders over time.

[californ14]

Re: Under The Code: Blocking and Defensive Gameplay Roundtable

I understand your position BIG, I just oppose the idea of punishment through increased injuries to persuade people to change the way they do a particular action or job....All that needs to be done is tie the activation of a big hit in regards to the players hit power rating, but I thought that was how it was already?

I also think we get into that grey area of assuming that size determines stamina or toughness; A lot of big guys get injured, some relatively frequently; thus why I believe injury ratings should be considered and not tying a particular user tool into increasing injury chances as a means to alter user play styles.

If we want to tie in fatigue to injury rate then I am all for that, but it should be implemented across all players; and is something I thought was already considered in game, but maybe not?

I would like to see wear and tear implemented, but for every player; until wear and tear can be implemented fairly on an individual player basis and take into account how the player was used, no one tool in its use, IMO, should increase injuries.

IMO we need "Hit Stick" only to be activated when the user attempts it AND the player power tackle rating is high enough....

If momentum, strength, fatigue, mass and such are implemented correctly, users trying to hit stick with smaller DB's are going to get ran over in M25 any way and thus push players to play their players differently; such as going for the legs..


It seems to me, BIG, we are both going towards the same goal but from different angles...It's been a fun sharing of points of view..

[hanzsomehanz]

I basically agree with and support everything that buckeye delivered to the table.

I hope to see sim logic prevail and this hope may be met if the base score of blocking sliders are running off a pro logic threshold. I am not looking for linemen to perform to pro bowl standards universally and conversely not a rookie's stanard either.

As it is now, I use sim logic in following and setting up blocks but my blockers do not. In the same measure of cup, my cup should runneth over.

Sent from my SGH-I727R using Tapatalk 2

[DeuceDouglas]

Re: Under The Code: Blocking and Defensive Gameplay Roundtable

I will still continue to be an avid anti hit stick advocate. I use to like it and I'm all for big hits and what not but I just feel like it's ran it's course and needs an overhaul that this 'force impact' stuff isn't going to accomplish. I'll wait and see how it turns out but chances I would say are pretty high that not much has changed and it still causes too many fumbles and is abused by the CPU at higher difficulty levels.

I would honestly, at this point, prefer it just be taken out of the game and have the hit stick hits just happen organically based on the interactions during gameplay.

[Profit89]

I will still continue to be an avid anti hit stick advocate. I use to like it and I'm all for big hits and what not but I just feel like it's ran it's course and needs an overhaul that this 'force impact' stuff isn't going to accomplish. I'll wait and see how it turns out but chances I would say are pretty high that not much has changed and it still causes too many fumbles and is abused by the CPU at higher difficulty levels.

I would honestly, at this point, prefer it just be taken out of the game and have the hit stick hits just happen organically based on the interactions during gameplay.

This.

Get rid of it EA... It's gimmicky. And simplifies the control scheme.

Some players just give really big hits. It's an opportunity to add individuality to the game. Use skill cards like NBA 2K13. Don't complicate things with gimmicks all the time.

[SamoanSteelerFromAus]

Did Natureboy play the game?!?

[jfsolo]

Re: Under The Code: Blocking and Defensive Gameplay Roundtable

I will still continue to be an avid anti hit stick advocate. I use to like it and I'm all for big hits and what not but I just feel like it's ran it's course and needs an overhaul that this 'force impact' stuff isn't going to accomplish. I'll wait and see how it turns out but chances I would say are pretty high that not much has changed and it still causes too many fumbles and is abused by the CPU at higher difficulty levels.

I would honestly, at this point, prefer it just be taken out of the game and have the hit stick hits just happen organically based on the interactions during gameplay.

Personally, I have hated it since it's inception. The part I bolded is how I have always wanted things to play out.