NFL 2K4: Better AI, Programming than 2K5?

[Blzer]

Re: NFL 2K4: Better AI, Programming than 2K5?

Why are you bumping? It was only two threads down.

[SoCal-Phenom]

Re: NFL 2K4: Better AI, Programming than 2K5?

im sorry. i tend to bump too often eagerly awaiting some more answers....lol my bad

[coffeeholic]

Re: NFL 2K4: Better AI, Programming than 2K5?

I've played them both forever-I'm still using my old copy of 4 and would buy another just for backup. 4 Is IMO the best football sim ever made. Someone mentioned the short passing game. Well,to me that is realistic. Most football in reality is trying to get first downs and a little more unless it is a clutch situation-maybe Madden and it's 50 yard plus passes got people thinking that is how it should be. I can't agree with that. In real football,the average QB throws for approx. in the 200+ plus range in a full game. I think the average is about 240. With the right time for the gameplay set on 2K4,you can get those results. My only gripe with 4 is the running game sliders need to go down a bit and the tackle sliders need to go up a bit. I play on slightly modded All-pro sliders and couldn't be any more happy. I don't even care about the older rosters.

[baa7]

Re: NFL 2K4: Better AI, Programming than 2K5?

I don't even care about the older rosters.

Ha-ha! Same here. Actually, I'm just doing a bit of minor roster shuffling - Brees to the Saints, T.O. to the FA list, etc - and I've decided to create a retired players team. Everyone who has retired, all on the same team. Think I'll put them on one of the retirement cities: Arizona, or somewhere in Florida.

Edit: It occurred to me SF would be the best choice. Retirement climate; no Alex Smith in the game and therefore no starting QB to displace (actually, they’re so bad, no entire team to displace either); can restore the 49ers to their past glory. Gannon at QB; Emmitt in the backfield; Jerry Rice and Tim Brown the WR’s; Shannon Sharpe TE… Could be the team to beat this year

[baa7]

Re: NFL 2K4: Better AI, Programming than 2K5?

im sorry. i tend to bump too often eagerly awaiting some more answers....lol my bad

Another answer here The kicking game in both 2K4 and 2K5 is flawed. And because the kicking game is so important, I spent hours testing and editing both CPU and User kicking. And while 2K5’s kicking game can’t be fixed with edits, it can be fixed in 2K4. It takes some serious rating changes, but it can be fixed.

Note: I don’t know if any of this will be of interest. I play single seasons only, so editing player ratings is something I do. If interested, maybe try editing a couple of teams and then testing to see if it works for you.

There are three kicker ratings that need adjusting in 2K4: power (KPW), accuracy (KAC) and consistency (CON).

* Power: lower to between 80 and 89, depending on the kicker (I have all my kickers rated between 82 and 88). That will still yield 50 yard FG’s (although the CPU doesn’t usually kick from that far out). And combined with the lowered Consistency rating, will yield both kickoffs that can go for touchbacks, and others that end up around the 5-10 yard line.

User kickers need their Power rating dropped an additional 10 points or so, to offset the advantage the User has in the kicking game. My team’s kicker has a Power rating of 75, meaning he can still make it from 50 yards if I hit 100% on the kick meter.

* Accuracy: determines how far left or right the FG or convert attempt will move. Believe it or not, I have all CPU kicker Accuracy ratings between 36 and 42. What this does besides lowering CPU FG accuracy, is it creates the occasional missed convert. Actually, it’s probably a bit too low, because I sometimes feel I get more CPU missed converts than I probably should. So consider rating kickers 40 to 50 or something.

User kickers need this rating lowered into the 20’s in order to see the occasional missed convert. My team’s kicker is rated 29.

* Consistency: works in conjunction with kick length, plus affects accuracy to a degree. I already explained how it affects kickoffs. It also affects FG’s of course. With a lower Consistency rating, the same kick (100%) will no longer yield the identical results – something that’s easier to see with User kicking than CPU kicking. My CPU kickers all have a Consistency rating of between 37 and 42. Again, those ratings could probably be raised to 40 to 50 for starters. But keep in mind: one rating point at this level means a big difference in the overall results. That’s just the way the game was programmed, apparently.

User kickers can have the same Consistency rating as CPU kickers, or even slightly higher (User kickers have a slight disadvantage over CPU kickers with this rating from what I’ve tested). My team’s kicker is rated 40 Consistency, and the best a perfectly kicked kickoff will do is hit the 2 yard line. I don’t like my kicker to kick touchbacks. So that rating could be bumped up obviously.

[augustus]

Re: NFL 2K4: Better AI, Programming than 2K5?

if you can stomach going back in terms of graphics (from 2K5 to 2K4), then I'd definitely go with 2K4. The CPU offers a far more challenging and consistent game. Not only does he make excellent decisions and reflect player ratings better, but the franchise is LIGHTYEARS better. FA's will refuse to sign with your team no matter what the cost and the draft is not broken either. The QB's will also scramble in 2K4; something they literally forgot to program into 2K5.

[drae2]

Re: NFL 2K4: Better AI, Programming than 2K5?

if you can stomach going back in terms of graphics (from 2K5 to 2K4), then I'd definitely go with 2K4. The CPU offers a far more challenging and consistent game. Not only does he make excellent decisions and reflect player ratings better, but the franchise is LIGHTYEARS better. FA's will refuse to sign with your team no matter what the cost and the draft is not broken either. The QB's will also scramble in 2K4; something they literally forgot to program into 2K5.

I'm in the minority here, because I prefer 2K5 over 2k4. The running game in 2K5 is far superior imo, and the downfield passing, especially the deep passing is much better than 2K4. There are certain aspects to both games, if combined, would get you really close to the ultimate football gaming experience. As far as QB's not scrambling, all I know is when I play against teams that have the so called "scrambling" QB's (Culpepper, Vick, etc), they run on me. They don't run 20 times a game but they do run. These are just my experiences though.

[baa7]

Re: NFL 2K4: Better AI, Programming than 2K5?

if you can stomach going back in terms of graphics (from 2K5 to 2K4), then I'd definitely go with 2K4.

Stomach? Compared to what Madden was offering the same year and the next couple AND with 2K7 on the Xbox no doubt, 2K4 is "next-gen". IMO, there's nothing to have to stomach. I prefer the player faces in 2K4; the cut scenes are better and programmed better IMO; no corncob-up-the-butt running animations in 2K4; and the QB passing animations are much better in 2K4.

And finally I prefer the 2K4 cheerleaders to those hyper-booby chicks in 2K5. Completely stupid, and shows just how much 2K was trying to appeal the 14 year old Madden crowd with 2K5, which IMO is one aspect of that game's big downfall.

[Rickster101]

Re: NFL 2K4: Better AI, Programming than 2K5?

Well I really can't say which is actually the better game since I'm probably in the minority also in being undecided picking between the two but my gut feelin' is leaning towards 2K5 for reasons of personel prefernce and convience working 2K5 rosters and playbooks.

Both are excellent in my opinion and I still play both but 2K4 started it all and when the VC crew went in to fix some items they went overboard abit and really hammered the passing game with the gameplay making it more difficult and just plain staggering to compete but in a good way, the running game was toned down also but now its killing the return game but can be delt with via the use of Finns editor.

So again IMO both are great but something about 2K4 felt more natural and fluid in the aspect of actually having a chance to compete thats not saying its better or anything like that I just feel the VC crew went a little overboard when fixing those items guys complained about and are now seeing it was something we all could have gotten along without them fixing those items so drastically as in the passing game and relentless DB play, they just went abit extreme on those issue IMO but still its a better game in some aspects and I guess its up to the user to make the final choice which is a good thing IMO.

I like em' both but I gotta give 2K5 the one up due to the fact its easier to edit and seems to be limited only by the use of an editor and doesn't appear to have any real limits as far as editing rosters and equipment, if 2K4 had one available I'd probably be doing both!

As for programming they both rock and I'm still in awe at looking at both games they're that good but again my preference is towards 2K5 as a personal choice.





Holla Back ya'll
Rickster101 aka "Jack Bauer"

[baa7]

Re: NFL 2K4: Better AI, Programming than 2K5?

Well put Rickster. Always appreciate your positive take on things.

[dan77733]

Re: NFL 2K4: Better AI, Programming than 2K5?

I hated 2K4. It was such crap because once you play franchise and "unlock" those stupid fake players / characters, the entire franchise and even the game is ruined. I played one season in 2K4 going undefeated on legend using the Dolphins. All I did was run with Ricky. I basically ran my way to an undefeated SB championship.

After that, I sold 2K4 and went back to 2K3 which is still my favorite football game of all time. If only there was an editor for 2K3. I would never play 2K5 again.

Back to 2K4, the running game was waaay too EASY as was getting SACKS. In 2K5, momentum kicks in with the running game thus making it harder and while I sometimes hate momentum and wish it wasnt in 2K5, I must admit that its good that its in 2K5 because its more realistic.

2K5 blows away 2K4 in my opinion from top to bottom. People always say that the CPU AI is better in 2K4 but if that was true, I wouldnt have been able to run my way to a SB championship. I wouldnt have been able to go undefeated on Legend in my first franchise. The only thing that 2K4 is better in AI wise is most likely the Draft. I never actually made it past one season in 2K4 so I cant say for sure but im guessing that 2K4's Draft AI / Logic was far better then 2K5's. But other then that, 2K4 is total and complete crap.

[Rickster101]

Re: NFL 2K4: Better AI, Programming than 2K5?

I hated 2K4. It was such crap because once you play franchise and "unlock" those stupid fake players / characters, the entire franchise and even the game is ruined. I played one season in 2K4 going undefeated on legend using the Dolphins. All I did was run with Ricky. I basically ran my way to an undefeated SB championship.

After that, I sold 2K4 and went back to 2K3 which is still my favorite football game of all time. If only there was an editor for 2K3. I would never play 2K5 again.

Back to 2K4, the running game was waaay too EASY as was getting SACKS. In 2K5, momentum kicks in with the running game thus making it harder and while I sometimes hate momentum and wish it wasnt in 2K5, I must admit that its good that its in 2K5 because its more realistic.

2K5 blows away 2K4 in my opinion from top to bottom. People always say that the CPU AI is better in 2K4 but if that was true, I wouldnt have been able to run my way to a SB championship. I wouldnt have been able to go undefeated on Legend in my first franchise. The only thing that 2K4 is better in AI wise is most likely the Draft. I never actually made it past one season in 2K4 so I cant say for sure but im guessing that 2K4's Draft AI / Logic was far better then 2K5's. But other then that, 2K4 is total and complete crap.

Ouchhh! why you hit so hard!!! True I do feel your pain or at least share some of your insight bro 2K4 was fun though for me at times and I don't miss its running game as you've just mentioned waaaay too easy and almost unstoppable at times I can see you know with Ricky Williams amassing 2000 yards very possible in 2K4 even Charlie Gardner and Warrick Dunn were beast and took it to the house too regularly.

My beef was just that the running game but after I had the game awhile and studied its gameplay my solution to "Curb" its dominating run game was via its attributes my only course of action to get this under control...and it worked!

I read at other sites referencing this issue as controlable thru its very responsive attributes.

If ever they work it was in 2K4 they were tight IMO and responded well, so anyway most guys at the time were tweaking with that "BREAK TACKLE" attribute among others but this one was the culprit trust me Gardner or Dunn aren't that kind of break tackle back and adjusting that attribute proved so to handle them abit.

The only real difference between the two is in the ability to edit certain attributes to conform to whats already there...the games "CODE" that was were it all began and when they fixed or tweak it they "Screwed" it up and now we pay the price with a more "Aggressive" not as "Smart" game in 2K5, oh 2K5 is great and has those issues addressed but its not "Smart" as for the A.I. part just look at these "Crazy" DBs....their first A.I. thought is to "Hit" first and "Kill" everything not "Read" and "React" they're just too "Jacked" up and look stupid at times and the O-line is at times out to lunch!

However 2K5 fixed the issues with 2k4 and now we're seeing the results, the game plays "Harder" not "Smarter", 2K4 was smart in gameplay giving you a powerful run game, smart QB play and a defense that couldn't catch a cold!

The kick returns were "Priceless" and a little too frequent actually but non the less you had em'.

About everything eles you've mentioned holds some validity and I couldn't agree more but why you "Hit" so hard it was/is still a great game but you gotta know the gameplay in order to get it under control and thats done via its attributes and settings or was that 2K3 ya' know it was pretty good too!

I dunno maybe its what I see but I know what to tweak or adjust in order to get it playing the game I wanna see via tweaking and whatnot but there comes a point where you just wished they'd have just left the 2K5 alone and kept the "Code" from 2K3 the smarter game.




Holla Back ya'll
Rickster101 aka "Jack Bauer"

[drae2]

Re: NFL 2K4: Better AI, Programming than 2K5?

Well I really can't say which is actually the better game since I'm probably in the minority also in being undecided picking between the two but my gut feelin' is leaning towards 2K5 for reasons of personel prefernce and convience working 2K5 rosters and playbooks.

Both are excellent in my opinion and I still play both but 2K4 started it all and when the VC crew went in to fix some items they went overboard abit and really hammered the passing game with the gameplay making it more difficult and just plain staggering to compete but in a good way, the running game was toned down also but know its killing the return game but can be delt with via the use of Finns editor.

So again IMO both are great but something about 2K4 felt more natural and fluid in the aspect of actually having a chance to compete thats not saying its better or anything like that I just feel the VC crew went a little overboard when fixing those items guys complained about and are now seeing it was something we all could have gotten along without them fixing those items so drastically as in the passing game and relentless DB play, they just went abit extreme on those issue IMO but still its a better game in some aspects and I guess its up to the user to make the final choice which is a good thing IMO.

I like em' both but I gotta give 2K5 the one up due to the fact its easier to edit and seems to be limited only by the use of an editor and doesn't appear to have any real limits as far as editing rosters and equipment, if 2K4 had one available I'd probably be doing both!

As for programming they both rock and I'm still in awe at looking at both games they're that good but again my preference is towards 2K5 as a personal choice.







Holla Back ya'll
Rickster101 aka "Jack Bauer"

I couldn't agree with you more. For those who are having trouble with 2K5, I strongly recommend downloading Finn's Editor from this site. It has made a big difference imo. But again, both games have very strong merits. And my favorite game of the entire franchise was 2K2 on the Dreamcast. That game was total kick @$$!

[SoCal-Phenom]

Re: NFL 2K4: Better AI, Programming than 2K5?

bump

[thejackal25]

Re: NFL 2K4: Better AI, Programming than 2K5?

With all this talk about 2k4 being better I decided to pop it back in after it's collected dust the last couple years, and honestly, I don't think the AI and programming is so different from 2k5 to suggest playing 2k4 instead. Yes, with the default settings and rosters the DBs play better in 2k4 than 2k5, however, w/ EQ turned on in 2k5, I find that the DB AI is not all that horrible in 2k5. Yes it gets frustrating when a corner or safety makes a play for the ball and really shouldn't or is completely out of position to make a play, but that does happen in real life too, and I don't think the frequency of horrible DB mistakes is that much greater than you would see in a regular NFL game, but that's just my opinion.

The CPU QBs do play better in 2k4, and this is one thing I definitely miss. The CPU QB can dissect a defense and march a team down field in 2k4, but I rarely see that happen in 2k5. In 2k5 it seems like drives are either big plays for scores or nothing...the defense doesn't sustain drives very well...but I think there have been various sliders that have helped this to a degree.

While it may seem that the return game is absent from 2k5, I actually think it's better than in 2k4. After drafting the fastest WR in my 2k4 franchise I made him return kicks, and he was able to average 40+ yards a return...now to me, that just seems ridiculous, especially if I'm playing on legend. As gratifying as it was to score my first special teams TD on 2k4, it became disappointing to have a team w/ 10+ special teams scores during one season. Find a guy w/ 99 speed and high 90 agility (which could even be done in the latter rounds of the draft) and you would have a superman returner who would occassionally not even get touched while returning kicks...to me, it just made the game too easy. And on 2k5 you can easily average 25-30 yards on kickoffs and 15+ yards on 2k5 if you place a good return man back there and make sure to use the juke stick...really, the juke stick makes all the difference in the world, once I started using it my return man was getting 30-50 yard gains on some punt returns...though he still hasn't scored a TD...but I know it will be rewarding when it does.

And aside from the 1st round of the draft, I prefer 2k5's franchise mode...plus the 1st round glitch can be remedied by picking the first round for all the teams thanks to Finn's editor. Just assign each team the BPA at a needed or weak position...it's not that hard and if you do it, you'll find that you're more familiar w/ other teams' top picks and you'll take more of an interest in how all of them progress. I know I'm in the minority, but I like that 2k5 has CPU trades and transactions. The franchise in 2k4 just seemed dead and dull, and I knew that everything would be stagnant if I didn't do any trades or anything. In 2k5 you do see some "crazy" trades, but I'm not going to go out and say that they are "stupid" or would never happen. Just cuz they don't make sense to me, doesn't mean a team wouldn't do it. Heck I never thought Culpepper would get traded for a second round pick, especially when the Vikings hadn't signed a solid replacement, but it happened. I never thought Moss would be traded for a mediocre LB and a first rounder. I never thought anyone would trade a 3rd and 4th for Brandon Lloyd. The fact is, in the NFL, weird things can happen, and 2k5 illustrates this much better than 2k4 does, imo.

2k4's benefits just can't outweigh the immersiveness that 2k5 has to offer, and while it's a great game, I can't see myself playing it when I have a working copy of 2k5 as well.