Sega reduces profit outlook by 72% - Admits total defeat to Madden 2003

**lordvader** · 11-14-2002, 06:04 PM

Re: Sega reduces profit outlook by 72% - Admits total defeat to Madden 2003

I can answer that.

1) Superior commentating compared to any console NFL title out there right now.

2) On-field play book and play calling. It is so useful and intuitive to see a preview of exactly where your play should go on the field, to scale before actually calling it. The days of the three small boxes with a bunch of damned X's and O's is over. This is one of the best features that Sega brought NFL gamers.

3) Unrivaled player renderings.

4) Unrivaled player animations.

5) The best controller-in-hand to player-on-field translation of any NFL game out there. In short, your player's actions on the field matches what you are doing with your controller better than any other console NFL game to date.

6) Beautiful stadium renderings.

7) Superior Franchise mode as compared to any other NFL title.

8) No John Madden blathering in your ear over and over about things that have NOTHING to do with what is happening on the field.

Now, before all the Madden Clones start in on me, I will say that NFL2k3 has flaws. Some of them pretty major. I don't want to get off the subject with them because this poster only wanted to know WHY people like me like NFL2k3 so much.

**Klue516** · 11-15-2002, 11:39 AM

Re: Sega reduces profit outlook by 72% - Admits total defeat to Madden 2003

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
8) No John Madden blathering in your ear over and over about things that have NOTHING to do with what is happening on the field

<hr /></blockquote>

Thats realistic

, good points Lordvader and i'm glad that you added the little comment at the end. Good move

**HlfManHlfAmazing** · 11-15-2002, 10:53 PM

Re: Sega reduces profit outlook by 72% - Admits total defeat to Madden 2003

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
1) Superior commentating compared to any console NFL title out there right now.
The commenting is hilariously unrealistic and often times completely unrelated to the play on the field. Dan and his buddy were fresh like 4 years ago. It's tired now

2) On-field play book and play calling. It is so useful and intuitive to see a preview of exactly where your play should go on the field, to scale before actually calling it. The days of the three small boxes with a bunch of damned X's and O's is over. This is one of the best features that Sega brought NFL gamers.
It might be useful and fun one player, but their two player play calling is a freaking joke and if they don't change it they won't be getting my money next year. Their playbooks are also jokes. You can tell that the Madden playbooks were overseen by someone with NFL experience and that NFL2K3s playbooks were overseen by a fat *** named Dave Zdyrko who never stepped foot on the field after HS. That's the difference basically. HS football knowledge vs Pro football knowledge.
3) Unrivaled player renderings.
I find neither Madden nor NFL2K3s player models to be realistic, but if I had to pick one it would be maddens because their linemen look like linemen. Everyone in NFL2KX looks like a greek god who is about 7' 280, all muscle.

5) The best controller-in-hand to player-on-field translation of any NFL game out there. In short, your player's actions on the field matches what you are doing with your controller better than any other console NFL game to date.
Except when I try and throw it about 10 times a game and my QB flat out refuses - leading to me being sacked for a 10 yard loss, EVERY TIME. And when my player catches a ball, only he doesn't. Ed McCaffrey often has the ball IN HANDS, and then is hit LIGHTLY and drops it. Now mind you, this is a player whose leg was GROTESQUELY snapped in half MID CATCH and he held on. That has never happened in NFL2K3. I can see the Broncos 4th stringers not catching it, but Eddie Mac and Rod Smith? Jerry Rice? Tim Brown? They are butterfingers in NFL2K3.

7) Superior Franchise mode as compared to any other NFL title.
Except that two players can't run franchises. That is unacceptable. And the menu system needs MAJOR work.
8) No John Madden blathering in your ear over and over about things that have NOTHING to do with what is happening on the field.
He'll remember THAT number.

<hr /></blockquote>

**enefeltukay** · 11-15-2002, 11:31 PM

Re: Sega reduces profit outlook by 72% - Admits total defeat to Madden 2003

The commenting is hilariously unrealistic and often times completely unrelated to the play on the field. Dan and his buddy were fresh like 4 years ago. It's tired now
Commentating is much more smarter and intelligent than Maddens

It might be useful and fun one player, but their two player play calling is a freaking joke and if they don't change it they won't be getting my money next year. Their playbooks are also jokes. You can tell that the Madden playbooks were overseen by someone with NFL experience and that NFL2K3s playbooks were overseen by a fat *** named Dave Zdyrko who never stepped foot on the field after HS. That's the difference basically. HS football knowledge vs Pro football knowledge.
You mean the outs and ins and the fades and curls, the stop and go, the hail mary's, the play actions, the roll outs, the trick plays, in NFL2K3 are not part of the NFL? LOL, NFL2K3 got the best team specific playbooks from the NFL. Madden can't touch it.

I find neither Madden nor NFL2K3s player models to be realistic, but if I had to pick one it would be maddens because their linemen look like linemen. Everyone in NFL2KX looks like a greek god who is about 7' 280, all muscle.
NFL2K3 looks way better, Madden looks cartoony and the colors are faded. How big do you think Linemans are? 5'? like in Madden? Check out this stats. "Scott Gragg T 6-8" 325 " From the 49ers. He's a Giant.[/b]
Except when I try and throw it about 10 times a game and my QB flat out refuses - leading to me being sacked for a 10 yard loss, EVERY TIME. And when my player catches a ball, only he doesn't. Ed McCaffrey often has the ball IN HANDS, and then is hit LIGHTLY and drops it. Now mind you, this is a player whose leg was GROTESQUELY snapped in half MID CATCH and he held on. That has never happened in NFL2K3. I can see the Broncos 4th stringers not catching it, but Eddie Mac and Rod Smith? Jerry Rice? Tim Brown? They are butterfingers in NFL2K3.
You just need more practice with the game, and you have to use Maximum Passing, you need to read the defense also, I don't have trouble with it, but people who are used to the easy catching in Madden will have trouble adjusting in NFL2K3
And the menu system needs MAJOR work.
The menu system for NFL2K3 is the best, i could choose a play in less than a second, analog might be hard at first but once you get used to it, very easy, the bluff mode in NFL2K3 is better than the 3 play bluff mode in Madden

**HlfManHlfAmazing** · 11-16-2002, 04:14 AM

Re: Sega reduces profit outlook by 72% - Admits total defeat to Madden 2003

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
You just need more practice with the game, and you have to use Maximum Passing, you need to read the defense also, I don't have trouble with it, but people who are used to the easy catching in Madden will have trouble adjusting in NFL2K3

<hr /></blockquote>

FANBOY LISTEN UP. If the ball is in a recievers hands, it's caught %90 of the time in the NFL. Ed McCaffrey catches the ball %100 of the time if he has it IN HIS HANDS. Don't make excuses for a weak game.

**enefeltukay** · 11-16-2002, 04:32 AM

Re: Sega reduces profit outlook by 72% - Admits total defeat to Madden 2003

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
Ed McCaffrey catches the ball %100 of the time if he has it IN HIS HANDS. Don't make excuses for a weak game.

<hr /></blockquote>

I also saw Ed McCaffrey drop a catch after getting hit by Mike Rumph. I also saw Owen drop catches when he sees 2 defenders nearby. NFL is not as easy gimmie pass and catch game just the way Madden portrays it. NFL passing game is more than that..
Madden is a great game, It is a polished game. but it is not at all a game that mimics the difficulty involve in playing in the NFL.

**Erv** · 11-16-2002, 07:45 AM

Re: Sega reduces profit outlook by 72% - Admits total defeat to Madden 2003

sega..one of the most brainless companies in the industry. Letting DC fail, (As well as screwing up franchises left and right on xbox(hotd and toj3) you think they would learn one day. This game would sell bucketloads if it was actually a competent sim, which it isn't. it would sell if they actually added more than 5 lines of commentary/got rid of the two guys(they got the ESPN liscence!!) I LOVED this series on DC, and somehow sega managed to suck all the fun out of the game.(well almost). I would spend many cold nights traveling to my friends house to play a head to head match of 2k1.

they had all this damn time with the second year of ps2, and it seems like the game is half finished. someone needs to slap them in the face so they realize gameplay will always sell over all these front office bells and whistles, which only should be included when the gameplay is almost perfected later in the consoles life spans...but imo sega skewered it since 2k1, so they have a ways to go.

it's cool if they are trying to make it into a sim...GREAT
Especially since 2k1/2 had some overly arcade elements. But you have to go all the way, and that means IMMEADITELY 10 yard dive tackles, jerky frame rate, the stupid catch-drop syndrome, sack issue, that all needs to be eliminated for me even to LOOK at this series again

oh yeah i finally played fever, that game is trash as well...

http://www.ebgames.com/ebx/editorial...popf_id=220674

even though there is a contrast, it is not being accepted enough by the casual gamer to make a dent.

**wwharton** · 11-16-2002, 06:04 PM

Re: Sega reduces profit outlook by 72% - Admits total defeat to Madden 2003

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
2) On-field play book and play calling. It is so useful and intuitive to see a preview of exactly where your play should go on the field, to scale before actually calling it. The days of the three small boxes with a bunch of damned X's and O's is over. This is one of the best features that Sega brought NFL gamers.
It might be useful and fun one player, but their two player play calling is a freaking joke and if they don't change it they won't be getting my money next year. Their playbooks are also jokes. You can tell that the Madden playbooks were overseen by someone with NFL experience and that NFL2K3s playbooks were overseen by a fat *** named Dave Zdyrko who never stepped foot on the field after HS. That's the difference basically. HS football knowledge vs Pro football knowledge.

<hr /></blockquote>

One game has mirrored plays for every team in the NFL from last year and the other doesn't. I guess you can't tell which is which.

**HlfManHlfAmazing** · 11-16-2002, 07:49 PM

Re: Sega reduces profit outlook by 72% - Admits total defeat to Madden 2003

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
One game has mirrored plays for every team in the NFL from last year and the other doesn't. I guess you can't tell which is which.

<hr /></blockquote>

Oh really? So that means that zero NFL teams ever pinch or spread their line? Or drop a down lineman? Or stack the box with eight or 9 men fronts? Or run a 4-4? Because I have seen that happen in every single game I've watched in the NFL this season (3 every sunday, that's 6 teams) and yet it doesn't and CAN'T happen in NFL2K3, furthurmore the Broncos playbook looks NOTHING like what they run. There are a TON of two tight end sets in their playbook in 2K3 yet the Broncos almost NEVER run a 2 TE set. They also run a lot of single back (And did last year) yet their playbook is dereft of singleback sets.

**enefeltukay** · 11-17-2002, 06:50 AM

Re: Sega reduces profit outlook by 72% - Admits total defeat to Madden 2003

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
it's cool if they are trying to make it into a sim...GREAT

<hr /></blockquote>

NFL2K3 is more of a sim than Madden. It handles player attributes better than Madden, The engine is better than Madden, It might not be as polished as Madden, but thats because it is ONLY 4 years old compared to 13.

**enefeltukay** · 11-17-2002, 06:59 AM

Re: Sega reduces profit outlook by 72% - Admits total defeat to Madden 2003

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
Oh really? So that means that zero NFL teams ever pinch or spread their line? Or drop a down lineman? Or stack the box with eight or 9 men fronts? Or run a 4-4? Because I have seen that happen in every single game I've watched in the NFL this season (3 every sunday, that's 6 teams) and yet it doesn't and CAN'T happen in NFL2K3, furthurmore the Broncos playbook looks NOTHING like what they run. There are a TON of two tight end sets in their playbook in 2K3 yet the Broncos almost NEVER run a 2 TE set. They also run a lot of single back (And did last year) yet their playbook is dereft of singleback sets.

<hr /></blockquote>

NFL2K3 got the pinch the gap the fan similar to spread, the twist..NFL2K3 has man to man, blitz, and a zone all in a single play, aka defensive disguises. NFL2K3 can also drop back the DT's and the DE's in zones. You haven't check out all the defenses in the game..Who uses a 4-4 in the NFL??

**jasongst** · 11-17-2002, 05:11 PM

Re: Sega reduces profit outlook by 72% - Admits total defeat to Madden 2003

The problem with something like a football game is that it's going to have several direct competitors. In a case like this marketing is much more important than it would be with a typical game. And I think you guys are right that 2K3 probably has way more than enough quality to sell well. SEGA has been desperately floundering to make money the last few years so of course they aren't going to have the marketing budget of EA (and like you guys said, they should have expected weaker sales), and that's the bottom line.

SEGA makes great games but in their situation I think they have no choice but to stop making the fringe games with weak sales. They need to redirect development costs of these small-sales games into the marketing budget for everything else. Maybe that's what they plan to do. I doubt they'd drop the NFL2K series since it's still one of their best selling games regardless of their projections. And besides, they already have 95% of the development done for any future upgrades to the games.

**FisherPrice** · 11-18-2002, 05:15 AM

Re: Sega reduces profit outlook by 72% - Admits total defeat to Madden 2003

I wonder how Monkey Ball 2 (great game), Gun Valkyrie, House of the Dead, Shinobi, Bass Fishing, Sega GT, Gun Grave, Beach Spikers (another fun game, and Tennis (yet one more) are selling.
Notice there is no word of Shen Mu 2. I know sega sold it to microsoft but imagine what it would be like if they didn't.

Here is the main problem when it comes to sales.
Most people will not try something new. Plain and simple.

Here is how I see it. Think of Coke and Pepsi. Do any of you think that you can come up with a new Soda that can knock either of them off the top?

Or go to the midwest and try and get a Chevy Man to drive a Ford.

Look how long it took for all of the independent Jean companies to knock off Levi.

Do any of you think you can come up with a sporting line that can topple nike????

Either way as long as they keep trying we as gamers are going to win in the long run. I have to go all the way back to the 16-bit Joe Montana days to think of a time when I have played so many good football games.

**HlfManHlfAmazing** · 11-19-2002, 03:50 AM

Re: Sega reduces profit outlook by 72% - Admits total defeat to Madden 2003

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
Who uses a 4-4 in the NFL??

<hr /></blockquote>

The Broncos get set in a 4-4 all the time. I don't watch any other team religiously as I am at the mercy of who fox and cbs let me watch, but I can guarantee you that more than 10 times a game Kenoy Kennedy drops down into zone coverage with the 3 LBs in the 4-3.

Furthurmore-

MANY MANY teams run a Quarter Defense (6 DBs) in fact Chicago did it tonight a few times and madden mentioned it (4 down lineman, 1 lb, and 6 dbs). Yet there isn't one 6 DB package in NFL2K3s playbook and you can use your blah blah drop a guy manually, but i want 6 DBs in there, I dont want to drop a LB into pass coverage. There is a reason the Broncos have a nickel back and a 6th DB on the roster - to combat 5 wide sets, yet there isn't a good man coverage for a 5 wide in NFL2k3 with blitzers - PERIOD. It's a CRAPPY play book and a CRAPPY play calling system.

**MaddenMan** · 11-19-2002, 09:24 AM

Re: Sega reduces profit outlook by 72% - Admits total defeat to Madden 2003

Just play the game you like, at any rate I have a strange suspicion that 1 of the so called "big 2" won't be around in 2-3 years unless they appeal to a broader audience. I'm not trying to be a prick, but the reason that NFL2K3 doesn't sell as good as Madden is:

1) People have been playing Madden for years and people love it - only those who don't love it found NFL2K3 to be that recluse from the storm and I'm glad they like it. But they ARE in the BIG minority - this means businesswise you won't make as much money unless you make a Madden clone that has more features/etc. But it has to be a clone style football game to draw the overwhelming majority of Madden fans away. (Or SEGA could get lucky if Madden pulls an NBA Live and just ends up flat out sucking - but that isn't going to happen since it is their top title)

2. Lack of marketing (hardly ever see a commercial anymore - I always see Madden commercials everyday.)

3. Bad marketing - Case and point ESPN endorses Madden on Sportscenter and props it - WTF???? ESPN is part of the 2K series, that just doesn't make sense.

4. I could argue about which game is better but it is pointless - It's like arguing over Chocolate and Vanilla - everyone has their preference - It just so happens that Madden is Chocolate and 2K is Orange Sherbet- only a small minority like it. That is why 2K is failing from a selling standpoint. From a game standpoint the game is very solid for a 4th year game. But there is still much room for improvement - even Madden has room for improvement and it is in its upteenth year. Every year the games have to be better and better and EA is better equipped at meeting these challenges and deadlines due to their programming staff being so large and with so much experience. No discredit to VC because they will get better and better with time - even the Ex EA employees that VC has - they have to relearn everything because they aren't dealing with Madden standards anymore. They are dealing with VC standards which focus on different aspects of the game more.

To each his own - time will reveal the winner - if there really is one just like time revealed GameDay a loser. But in reality and in my opinion it would be better for the football market if each game was loved by an equal amount of people and sold almost equally - this promotes competitive rivalry even more (not just on SEGAs side 90% because they are behind in sales) - I want Madden to be revolutionary each and every year too.

Sega reduces profit outlook by 72% - Admits total defeat to Madden 2003

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