Rivers or Vick: Who is Playing at a Higher Level?

[bkrich83]

I don't see how guys can look at his numbers an say he didn't play well. Heck he made a throw between what 3-4 guys for a TD. He played well enough to win. If he connected on some of his throws he may have had another Monday night performance.

That throw was more a misplay by two defenders than a great throw.

The numbers are misleading. While he didn't kill the Eagles he did not play particularly well.

[kehlis]

Re: Rivers or Vick: Who is Playing at a Higher Level?

Let's put it like this...

Your Team is down by 6. You have time for one drive, maybe two. Your running game, for whatever reason, is ineffective. Who do you want leading this drive? Vick or Rivers?

Tough call...

I have done a complete 360 on Vick this year and am sold on him completely.

That said, to answer your question, I would still take Rivers. I do however agreethat it's a toss up.

[z Revis]

Re: Rivers or Vick: Who is Playing at a Higher Level?

I have done a complete 360 on Vick this year and am sold on him completely.

That said, to answer your question, I would still take Rivers. I do however agreethat it's a toss up.

So your stance on Vick hasn't changed at all? You were completely sold on him before?

Spoiler

I keed, I keed.

On topic - I'd take Rivers in that situation as well. Actually, I'd take Rivers in that situation over every QB in the league not named Tom Brady or Peyton Manning.

[RJTurneR]

Re: Rivers or Vick: Who is Playing at a Higher Level?

Actually, I'd take Rivers in that situation over every QB in the league not named Tom Brady or Peyton Manning.

Peyton just isn't Peyton this year. I know it comes down to these receivers but in that Chargers game he threw 3 or 4 INT's. One should of been a PI, the other was a result of his arm being hit, and the last one he threw deep to Brandon James in the last minute or so of the game, who at the time had Cason and a safety surrounding him. They were not going to win that game so why throw that bomb? As I said, that just isn't Peyton at all.

Based on this season alone, there are about 10 different guys I'd take above Peyton. Rivers, Vick, Cassel, Brady, Ryan, Rodgers, Brees, Flacco, and maybe Orton.

[wwharton]

Re: Rivers or Vick: Who is Playing at a Higher Level?

But he missed some open throws, including a couple of sure TD's...he did not play well even with his final numbers. In this case his numbers were pretty hollow imo.

The numbers don't tell the whole story, as you're saying. The Eagles didn't win in spite of a sub-par Vick performance. He had a pretty good hand in that victory.

If someone came in and said he played amazing, then I'd disagree with them, and the things you've pointed out would come into play. However, I don't think they can be used to say he played poorly. He played well enough for his team to win... and usually throwing phrases like that around come with stats of 150 passing yards, 20 rushing yards, 1 td. He played much better than THAT so I think it's a stretch to say he had a bad game.

It's not fair to use the Skins game as the barometer for playing well. That was a once in a lifetime performance. In terms of this thread, my money's on Rivers right now. But I promise I can pull some Rivers games and pick them apart and show the emptiness in some of his numbers. Considering the team's record, it'd probably be easier to do than with Vick.

[z Revis]

Re: Rivers or Vick: Who is Playing at a Higher Level?

Peyton just isn't Peyton this year. I know it comes down to these receivers but in that Chargers game he threw 3 or 4 INT's. One should of been a PI, the other was a result of his arm being hit, and the last one he threw deep to Brandon James in the last minute or so of the game, who at the time had Cason and a safety surrounding him. They were not going to win that game so why throw that bomb? As I said, that just isn't Peyton at all.

Based on this season alone, there are about 10 different guys I'd take above Peyton. Rivers, Vick, Cassel, Brady, Ryan, Rodgers, Brees, Flacco, and maybe Orton.

As far as that last pick, Peyton said after the game that he needs as many reps as he can get with the new receivers they've had to plug in. That's why he was still in the game.

You're crazy if you'd take 10 guys over Peyton. He's had a few rough games and now he's not even a top 10 QB? Seriously?

[RJTurneR]

Re: Rivers or Vick: Who is Playing at a Higher Level?

That was a once in a lifetime performance. In terms of this thread, my money's on Rivers right now. But I promise I can pull some Rivers games and pick them apart and show the emptiness in some of his numbers. Considering the team's record, it'd probably be easier to do than with Vick.

Numbers wise Rivers didn't have that great of a game in Indy (19/23, 185Yds, 0 TD's) but watching him in that game he still did a pretty good job of controlling the football. His still in the front running.

A solid performance from Brady against the Jets and I think that could really help Bradys chances. Manning is falling behind now IMO. Are guy's like Orton, Rodgers, and Ryan in the running? I don't see them winning it, but with Manning falling behind these last few games here's how I see it:

1) Rivers
2) Vick
3) Brady
4) Ryan
5) Rodgers

I can think of any WR's or RB's that are valuable to their team so much that they can't literally not win without them.

[RJTurneR]

Re: Rivers or Vick: Who is Playing at a Higher Level?

You're crazy if you'd take 10 guys over Peyton. He's had a few rough games and now he's not even a top 10 QB? Seriously?

I exaggerated a bit, just a number I pulled of the top of my head. Based on this season, I think he would be #6 in the Top 10. Just behind Ryan or Rodgers maybe.

[z Revis]

Re: Rivers or Vick: Who is Playing at a Higher Level?

I exaggerated a bit, just a number I pulled of the top of my head. Based on this season, I think he would be #6 in the Top 10. Just behind Ryan or Rodgers maybe.

If you're going off stats, sure.

[RJTurneR]

Re: Rivers or Vick: Who is Playing at a Higher Level?

If you're going off stats, sure.

Yeah stats wise I'd say that area. Going by his name.. still #1 just because of who he is.

Who have Indy got next? I think it would help a ton going against a bad Pass D, let those new guys get a bit of confidence. I'm starting to like that Blair White kid.

[wwharton]

Re: Rivers or Vick: Who is Playing at a Higher Level?

Numbers wise Rivers didn't have that great of a game in Indy (19/23, 185Yds, 0 TD's) but watching him in that game he still did a pretty good job of controlling the football. His still in the front running.

A solid performance from Brady against the Jets and I think that could really help Bradys chances. Manning is falling behind now IMO. Are guy's like Orton, Rodgers, and Ryan in the running? I don't see them winning it, but with Manning falling behind these last few games here's how I see it:

1) Rivers
2) Vick
3) Brady
4) Ryan
5) Rodgers

I can think of any WR's or RB's that are valuable to their team so much that they can't literally not win without them.

You're finding things to make your argument work and then presenting them in a vacuum. When you were trying to find ways to prove Vick wasn't playing that well, you just focused on the HUGE game he had against the Skins, ignoring everything else (including very good stats against other teams). I've been using the eye ball test all year, which is why I wouldn't say Vick had a bad game in the Giants win... it just wasn't a great game. I can't for the life of me see how, based on your previous arguments, you can switch course to now say "I watched Rivers that game so his stats don't matter, he's still in the lead".

Like I said, watching both of them all year, I'd take Rivers right now but Vick is very close. But watching both of them play this week, I have no idea how Rivers performance can be considered better than Vick's. They both probably had their worse games of the year and both still managed to control the game and have a big role in the team's victory. What did Vick do wrong for you to say Rivers had an edge this week? And don't point at a stat sheet since you're giving Rivers credit DESPITE his stats.

Also, even mentioning accidentally that someone like Cassel is playing better than Peyton this year is insane. Let alone Orton, Flacco, etc. Peyton's working his way out of MVP talks right now but most of the guys on your list would be considered busts by now if they were under center for this year's Colts team. I really don't think you appreciate everything Manning does for that team.

[Chrisksaint]

Re: Rivers or Vick: Who is Playing at a Higher Level?

As far as that last pick, Peyton said after the game that he needs as many reps as he can get with the new receivers they've had to plug in. That's why he was still in the game.

You're crazy if you'd take 10 guys over Peyton. He's had a few rough games and now he's not even a top 10 QB? Seriously?

He's having a down year it happens, I'd still take him over any other QB besides Brees but that's just cause i'm a homer.

[z Revis]

Re: Rivers or Vick: Who is Playing at a Higher Level?

Yeah stats wise I'd say that area. Going by his name.. still #1 just because of who he is.

Who have Indy got next? I think it would help a ton going against a bad Pass D, let those new guys get a bit of confidence. I'm starting to like that Blair White kid.

Cowboys at home. Depends on how our O-line holds up against the pressure Dallas brings.

Also, even mentioning accidentally that someone like Cassel is playing better than Peyton this year is insane. Let alone Orton, Flacco, etc. Peyton's working his way out of MVP talks right now but most of the guys on your list would be considered busts by now if they were under center for this year's Colts team. I really don't think you appreciate everything Manning does for that team.

Absolutely. Aside from Wayne, there's really not much to work with with all the injuries, especially with an ineffective run game and mediocre O-line play.

He's having a down year it happens, I'd still take him over any other QB besides Brees but that's just cause i'm a homer.

And the funny thing is, he's not even having that bad of a year. It'd be a great season for your average QB. What is he, like top 5 in TD's and yards? It's only a bad year for his standards.

[RJTurneR]

Re: Rivers or Vick: Who is Playing at a Higher Level?

You're finding things to make your argument work and then presenting them in a vacuum. When you were trying to find ways to prove Vick wasn't playing that well, you just focused on the HUGE game he had against the Skins, ignoring everything else (including very good stats against other teams). I've been using the eye ball test all year, which is why I wouldn't say Vick had a bad game in the Giants win... it just wasn't a great game. I can't for the life of me see how, based on your previous arguments, you can switch course to now say "I watched Rivers that game so his stats don't matter, he's still in the lead".

Like I said, watching both of them all year, I'd take Rivers right now but Vick is very close. But watching both of them play this week, I have no idea how Rivers performance can be considered better than Vick's. They both probably had their worse games of the year and both still managed to control the game and have a big role in the team's victory. What did Vick do wrong for you to say Rivers had an edge this week? And don't point at a stat sheet since you're giving Rivers credit DESPITE his stats.

Also, even mentioning accidentally that someone like Cassel is playing better than Peyton this year is insane. Let alone Orton, Flacco, etc. Peyton's working his way out of MVP talks right now but most of the guys on your list would be considered busts by now if they were under center for this year's Colts team. I really don't think you appreciate everything Manning does for that team.

Whoo.. hold it there. To the first part I NEVER said I thought Vick was a bad player or wasn't an MVP candidate. My point there was that was a historical performance and you don't see those kind of performances every single game. Going back to that game (Game after Washington leading up to the next game) my point pretty much was that was an insane performance which don't happen often. People jumped on that bandwagon of 'His Going to do That Every Game". He still put up good/very good stats in the games before and after.

To the 2nd point, I NEVER said "Rivers performance was better than Vicks last Sunday". I actually didn't mention Vicks performance against the Bears. MVP (Although sometimes you can't be sure) isn't purely based off stats. I wasn't pointing out that Rivers, although didn't have a dazzling performance, did quite well leading that team and controlling the football, while concentrating on the run game more and having the defense make big plays. If you wanted me to mention Vicks performance in that game then ask me too.

And finally.. in your 3rd point. I NEVER said Cassel and Orton or whoever are much better QB's then Manning as a whole. I didn't even put them in the Top 5 (Which is week to week now). I've watched Peyton many times, its not like I have no clue who the hell he is....

exaggerated a bit, just a number I pulled of the top of my head. Based on this season, I think he would be #6 in the Top 10. Just behind Ryan or Rodgers maybe.

If you're going off stats, sure.

Yeah stats wise I'd say that area. Going by his name.. still #1 just because of who he is.

I think based on this season so far, I'd find a few people who would put Orton, Brady, Rodgers, Ryan, Rivers, Vick over Manning. Orton leads the league in passing yards, which has me scratching my head considering Rivers is on pace to beat the record.

Why does everyone seem to have this idea of being a Vick H****. It's not like I have ever said I dislike the guy, think his a bad player, or doesn't deserve to be alive.

This is why I never talk about Vick, Rivers or any other QB in the league all in one post. There's a lot to write about. My post before was based on Rivers because I was writing about Rivers.

[chilli311]

Re: Rivers or Vick: Who is Playing at a Higher Level?

Numbers wise Rivers didn't have that great of a game in Indy (19/23, 185Yds, 0 TD's) but watching him in that game he still did a pretty good job of controlling the football. His still in the front running.

How is 19/23 not a great game? He missed 4 passes in a game where the defense and run game made it so that he didn't have to throw. With the exception of the first drive by Indy, SD never trailed.