Brady, P.Manning or Roethlisberger?

[z Revis]

Re: Brady, P.Manning or Roethlisberger?

Also, the problem with these "clutch" arguments is the measurement of them is connected to the performance of ALL the other players on the team presenting opportunities. For example, how can anyone really say Ben is the most clutch in a SB situation bc of what he did against Arizona when we haven't seen what other QBs would do in that situation? Who knows how "clutch" even the likes of Matt Cassell or Freeman would be in that situation? They've never had a chance to prove it.

That's the black and white example. In another thread I went into more detail about how having a great defense keeps the game close which also gives a QB more chance to prove how they handle those situations late in games. In the same sense "clutch" is wrongly assessed to some situations where QBs did make the necessary plays and the defense or special teams screwed the game up and the performance was erased. I don't think (I hope anyway) anyone thinks Rivers isn't "clutch" but his record sucked this year because of issues with special teams. Rodgers' first year starting they talked about how many games were lost in the 4th quarter which would say he's horrible in the clutch, but the D was riddled with injury and they ruined many great late game drives that Rodgers converted.

Clutch is very real but no one here that's using it to prop Ben up to the level of two QBs that may go down as the best ever is accounting for all the variables needed to properly guestimate it.

Agreed completely. It also depends on how you define clutch. It's very subjective and there aren't any set in stone rules on how to measure it.

Those stats that were previously posted are interesting to look and analyze. However, like Revis said stats can be misleading. Mainly because just like QB's shouldn't get all the praise for success they shouldn't get all the blame for things out of their control either. Things like dropped passes and tipped interceptions happen all the time.

My original post was also in reference to another poster saying clutch is mythical. Which I'm sure there are plenty of folks that think it is. They think that everything is all about talent and luck, maybe it is. However, to me there is something to be said for those QB's like Joe Montana and John Elway who never blink an eye even under the most adverse of conditions. If I were to compare clutch to a everyday average Joe situation, I'd say when some guys meet a hot girl at a bar and freeze up and fumble over their words and what not. While others are able to stay cool and on the top of their game even with the hottest of girls. Also, people who have been in sales before can probably relate as well. When you have that difficult customers who is coming at you with questions from all angles. Do they have to stop and think about something. Making themselves appear uninformed or unconfident or are they ready to spit out an answer without thinking twice and eventually close the sale?

So my point was not to completely disregard the stats but, to point out how Ben has came through in extremely high pressure situations in his last three playoff games. I've also never once said that Ben is a better QB that the other two but, that at the end of the game he and his team seem to come through and make the plays that need to be made. Sure his lineman have to block, his receivers have to run precise routes, catch the ball and the defense and special teams have to do their job. But, the QB has to read defenses, get rid of the ball accurately, protect the ball, etc. And whether people like to admit it or not Ben is a big part of that for Pittsburgh and IMO he just has that something special about him. Especially, in the waning minutes of big games. Dare I call it the 'It factor"? I mean, from what I can recall the guy just doesn't make big mistakes in the final half of the 4th quarter in big playoff games. He's on of those guys like Montana or Elway (disclaimer I'm not saying that he is as good as either one of those guys) who has ice in their veins. And when the game is on the line he just comes in and makes play after play regardless of what his stat-line was for the rest of the game.

I agree with you for the most part. The problem I have is are you saying Peyton and Brady aren't clutch? Big Ben seems to have more opportunities to be clutch. He also has a better team to support him and make those clutch throws/drives successful. What I mean is, just off the top of my head, I can think of 3 successful "clutch" drives by Peyton in his Playoff career where he actually lost the game due to missed FG's or his special teams/defense blowing the game.

EDIT: Also Brady's drive in SB 42 could be considered clutch, but his defense couldn't stop Eli & company.

[NovaStar]

Re: Brady, P.Manning or Roethlisberger?

You can not measure clutch. People like to think you can, but it is not possible. Just like luck.

The question not whether you can measure it or not the question is does it exist? If you concede luck exists, then should also be able to understand the concept of clutch. Clutch is a catch phrase for people that perform in the moment, you measure it by understanding the moment.

Was the catch that Tyree made for the Giants clutch or luck? Or was it based on some statistical/factual analysis?

[NovaStar]

Re: Brady, P.Manning or Roethlisberger?

To ignore stats is foolish IMO(especially stats like the ones in that article a page or two back, about as in depth as you can get). They're a reflection of what you did on the field. Sure, some can be misleading. But so can wins and losses. The perfect example is Peyton and Big Ben vs the Jets this year. I don't think it's arguable that Peyton played a better overall game than Big Ben. He even did more in 'crunch time'. Big Ben had to get 2 first downs. Peyton had to drive the field to put his team into FG position. Both successfully did it. The difference is Ben had a defense to bail him out when need be, and Peyton's defense blew the game.

Stats aren't the end all be all, but neither are wins and losses. If you disagree with the latter, then you're essentially saying that Trent Dilfer is better than Dan Marino.

No one is ignoring stats, they have their place but not when you are discussing if someone is clutch or not because stats analyze after the moment has passed. Stats are a bottomline after the fact analysis of someones performance (when used in this instance) they are totally irrelevant when discussing what happened in a moment during a game.

Tyree had one catch in that superbowl against the Pats, so his stat line will read one catch for 30 yrds, a stat/factual analysis would say that he had a bad game, what your eyes tell you is that he made the clutch play of the game. Who cares what the stat line says? He will be remembered forever for that one clutch moment.

[NovaStar]

Re: Brady, P.Manning or Roethlisberger?

Also, the problem with these "clutch" arguments is the measurement of them is connected to the performance of ALL the other players on the team presenting opportunities. For example, how can anyone really say Ben is the most clutch in a SB situation bc of what he did against Arizona when we haven't seen what other QBs would do in that situation? Who knows how "clutch" even the likes of Matt Cassell or Freeman would be in that situation? They've never had a chance to prove it.

That's the black and white example. In another thread I went into more detail about how having a great defense keeps the game close which also gives a QB more chance to prove how they handle those situations late in games. In the same sense "clutch" is wrongly assessed to some situations where QBs did make the necessary plays and the defense or special teams screwed the game up and the performance was erased. I don't think (I hope anyway) anyone thinks Rivers isn't "clutch" but his record sucked this year because of issues with special teams. Rodgers' first year starting they talked about how many games were lost in the 4th quarter which would say he's horrible in the clutch, but the D was riddled with injury and they ruined many great late game drives that Rodgers converted.

Clutch is very real but no one here that's using it to prop Ben up to the level of two QBs that may go down as the best ever is accounting for all the variables needed to properly guestimate it.

What up Wharton, great points. I would add that you don't have to guestimate it, you base it on frequency and or circumstance. When the moment is presented to any given player to decide a contest what have they done? Brady is known for 3 SB wins by taking his team down the final drive for SB game winning fg's, clutch. Vinitiari is known for making 3 SB game winning fg's, plus one in driving snow, clutch. Ben is known for driving his team down for the last drive of the game making great escape after great escape to win a SB, clutch. Ben has also made throws on what 3 and 19 to seal victories in the playoffs to close games out. Peyton, miraculous comeback in the playoffs against the Pats, clutch, many last minute drives in the regular season.

Part of any clutch discussions is the ability or fortune of the player to be placed in the situation, Jordan is known for being clutch because when placed in game winning situations he hit the shot enough to warrant the recognition. Are we then to question what Drexler might have done if placed in the same situation? no. All that is required is that the person discussed was placed in the situation/moment and performed.

Clutch is like obscenity, you can't define it but you know it when you see it.

[z Revis]

Re: Brady, P.Manning or Roethlisberger?

No one is ignoring stats, they have their place but not when you are discussing if someone is clutch or not because stats analyze after the moment has passed. Stats are a bottomline after the fact analysis of someones performance (when used in this instance) they are totally irrelevant when discussing what happened in a moment during a game.

Tyree had one catch in that superbowl against the Pats, so his stat line will read one catch for 30 yrds, a stat/factual analysis would say that he had a bad game, what your eyes tell you is that he made the clutch play of the game. Who cares what the stat line says? He will be remembered forever for that one clutch moment.

I don't disagree with you, and that post wasn't in reference to clutch moments, I was speaking in general. But, and this may be arguing semantics, you're making it seem as though "in the moment" is the only thing that matters. Tyree still had a bad game that day, overall, and he's still a bad receiver. He just made 1 incredible catch, but it doesn't justify how bad he is. Wasn't he cut just a year later? lol

[jeremym480]

Re: Brady, P.Manning or Roethlisberger?

I agree with you for the most part. The problem I have is are you saying Peyton and Brady aren't clutch? Big Ben seems to have more opportunities to be clutch. He also has a better team to support him and make those clutch throws/drives successful. What I mean is, just off the top of my head, I can think of 3 successful "clutch" drives by Peyton in his Playoff career where he actually lost the game due to missed FG's or his special teams/defense blowing the game.

EDIT: Also Brady's drive in SB 42 could be considered clutch, but his defense couldn't stop Eli & company.

Nah, I've never said that they weren't clutch. Actually, I've stated from the beginning that they were all great in their own right.

When I think of Brady and Manning I think of two of the best QB's I have ever seen play. Brady reminds me more than anyone of Montana (my favorite player of all time). He has always been cool, calm and collected. Especially, during the Super Bowl runs.

When I think of Manning, I think of one of (if not the) best field generals of all time. The way he manages a game (calling plays, checking down, getting rid of the ball quickly and accurately etc.) has always been amazing to me. He will without a doubt go down as one of the best ever to play the position.

But, when I watch Big Ben, for the most part of the game, I don't see a great QB like the other two. I see a very good QB who somehow turns into a great QB when the game is on the line. It's like he "turns it up a notch' or "kicks it into another gear". I certainly don't mean that as a knock against the other two because they do it too often times but, with Ben it stands out a little more. Mainly because he goes from very good to great. If that makes sense.

[NovaStar]

Re: Brady, P.Manning or Roethlisberger?

I don't disagree with you, and that post wasn't in reference to clutch moments, I was speaking in general. But, and this may be arguing semantics, you're making it seem as though "in the moment" is the only thing that matters. Tyree still had a bad game that day, overall, and he's still a bad receiver. He just made 1 incredible catch, but it doesn't justify how bad he is. Wasn't he cut just a year later? lol

Yeah, he was a bad player, or not as good as other pro wr's (don't want to ever call a guy a bad player). Good or bad, we can agree that he made a clutch play, the point is if he continously made plays like that even when his statline is bad, he would be known as a clutch player, for example. If he were to have played in 3 playoff games and in those games had 1 catch per game but each one of those catches came in the 4th qtr, was for 30yrds on 3rd or 4th down, within the final two minutes that help decide the game, you would say "that guy is clutch!"

What Ben does is equavilent to that. He might not have the best stats from game to game, qtr to qtr, but when the game is on the line he has done the incredible, consistently.

"In the moment" is the only thing that matters if it contributes to winning the game. If I throw 4 int's in the first half, and 2 in the 3rd qtr, yet I throw to td's on 4th down in the final 3min of the game, and my team wins, which matters more? My overall game play, or the plays I made when the moment/pressure, presented itself?

[z Revis]

Re: Brady, P.Manning or Roethlisberger?

Nah, I've never said that they weren't clutch. Actually, I've stated from the beginning that they were all great in their own right.

When I think of Brady and Manning I think of two of the best QB's I have ever seen play. Brady reminds me more than anyone of Montana (my favorite player of all time). He has always been cool, calm and collected. Especially, during the Super Bowl runs.

When I think of Manning, I think of one of (if not the) best field generals of all time. The way he manages a game (calling plays, checking down, getting rid of the ball quickly and accurately etc.) has always been amazing to me. He will without a doubt go down as one of the best ever to play the position.

But, when I watch Big Ben, for the most part of the game, I don't see a great QB like the other two. I see a very good QB who somehow turns into a great QB when the game is on the line. It's like he "turns it up a notch' or "kicks it into another gear". I certainly don't mean that as a knock against the other two because they do it too often times but, with Ben it stands out a little more. Mainly because he goes from very good to great. If that makes sense.

Ah ok, that makes complete sense and I don't disagree at all.

I think I would still take Peyton & Brady + Rodgers, Brees, and Rivers before Big Ben though. Honestly about the only thing Big Ben does better than those 5 is his ability to escape defenders. He's the hardest QB in the league to bring down. Other than that, and maybe the clutch thing, although we haven't seen enough of Rodgers, Rivers, and Brees to know for sure, they're all better in every other category IMO. I think Big Ben needs more help to succeed than those QB's. Just his style makes me think that, but I don't know, and probably will never know for sure, it's just my belief.


Nova - I agree except the last part. Winning is the only thing that matters, but if you throw 6 INT's and win the game, it speaks more about your team than it does your play at the end of the game. If not for the help of your team you wouldn't even have had the opportunity to be clutch and win the game. Either that or you were playing a terrible team that couldn't capitalize on your mistakes. lol. I would much rather have a player that plays consistently well for all 4 quarters than one who only shows up in the moment.

[Andrews85]

Re: Brady, P.Manning or Roethlisberger?

It's because of what Ben does before the 2 minute drill.

vs. the Jets he was 10-19 for 133 yrds and 2 ints , but people talk about his 2 clutch passes on the last drive.

vs the Cardinals in the Superbowl before the game winning 84 yrd drive he was 16-23 for 172 yards 0 tds and 1 int.

vs the Seahawks in the Superbowl he was 9-21 for 123 yrds 0 tds and 2 ints. No game winning plays needed.


Big Ben is clutch when the game is on the line, the problem for me is in the games I've seen, he's been mediocre at best for the first 3 qtrs.

LOL please. Ben is far from mediocre for the first 3 quarters. I'm guessing you've only seen 1 or 2 Steelers games ever.

[Chrisksaint]

Re: Brady, P.Manning or Roethlisberger?

Your ability to bring up a Saints example in almost every post is impeccable. lol

Hahahah yeah I guess but I always like to provide examples in any arguement and I guess I just fall back to something I actually know. Makes me seem smart, instead of using another example where i'm prolly wrong lol

[HesTheCoach]

Re: Brady, P.Manning or Roethlisberger?

To ignore stats is foolish IMO(especially stats like the ones in that article a page or two back, about as in depth as you can get). They're a reflection of what you did on the field. Sure, some can be misleading. But so can wins and losses. The perfect example is Peyton and Big Ben vs the Jets this year. I don't think it's arguable that Peyton played a better overall game than Big Ben. He even did more in 'crunch time'. Big Ben had to get 2 first downs. Peyton had to drive the field to put his team into FG position. Both successfully did it. The difference is Ben had a defense to bail him out when need be, and Peyton's defense blew the game.

Stats aren't the end all be all, but neither are wins and losses. If you disagree with the latter, then you're essentially saying that Trent Dilfer is better than Dan Marino.

I don't think most are arguing that it's just about wins and losses (but hey that is pretty important).

Personally I'm getting a little tired of people acting like Ben doesn't have good numbers in addition to his clutch play.

Here are some numbers (that's stats for those stat people discounting Ben) to consider-

Ben and Brady have identical QB ratings in the playoffs (85).

Ben and Brady have almost the same career QB rating. Ben at 93, Brady at 95.

They both have identical career completion percentages at 63.

Ben has a a better YPA, which is one of the best in the history of the NFL.

Brady averages just 12 more yards a game passing than Ben but averages 4 more attempts a game than Ben.

Ben has had 2 seasons with a 98 QB rating, one with a 97 QB rating and two with over a 100 QB rating.

Brady also has 2 seasons with over a 100 QB rating but no other seasons with a better QB rating than 96.

QB rating's can be misleading but hey, everyone that is discounting Ben is using the "stats" excuse, so there ya go!

So....How exactly isn't Ben up there with Brady? Can't wait to hear more excuses!

[Andrews85]

Re: Brady, P.Manning or Roethlisberger?

I don't think most are arguing that it's just about wins and losses (but hey that is pretty important).

Personally I'm getting a little tired of people acting like Ben doesn't have good numbers in addition to his clutch play.

Here are some numbers (that's stats for those stat people discounting Ben) to consider-

Ben and Brady have identical QB ratings in the playoffs (85).

Ben and Brady have almost the same career QB rating. Ben at 93, Brady at 95.

They both have identical career completion percentages at 63.

Ben has a a better YPA, which is one of the best in the history of the NFL.

Brady averages just 12 more yards a game passing than Ben but averages 4 more attempts a game than Ben.

Ben has had 2 seasons with a 98 QB rating, one with a 97 QB rating and two with over a 100 QB rating.

Brady also has 2 seasons with over a 100 QB rating but no other seasons with a better QB rating than 96.

QB rating's can be misleading but hey, everyone that is discounting Ben is using the "stats" excuse, so there ya go!

So....How exactly isn't Ben up there with Brady? Can't wait to hear more excuses!

Good stuff HesTheCoach. I'm sure someone will say that the defense is responsible for Bens numbers, but Brady did it by himself.

[HesTheCoach]

Re: Brady, P.Manning or Roethlisberger?

Good stuff HesTheCoach. I'm sure someone will say that the defense is responsible for Bens numbers, but Brady did it by himself.

Well, I think a lot of people that discount Ben actually don't watch him play on a regular basis and/or listen way too much to the largely ignorant sports media (his numbers aren't that good, he has a great run game, etc.).

Whatever, he's one of the best, IMO, and if the Steelers win on Sunday he's virtually a lock for the HOF. But even so, he's still not "elite". . Whatever works for the FF folks!

[capp34]

Re: Brady, P.Manning or Roethlisberger?

I don't think most are arguing that it's just about wins and losses (but hey that is pretty important).

Personally I'm getting a little tired of people acting like Ben doesn't have good numbers in addition to his clutch play.

Here are some numbers (that's stats for those stat people discounting Ben) to consider-

Ben and Brady have identical QB ratings in the playoffs (85).

Ben and Brady have almost the same career QB rating. Ben at 93, Brady at 95.

They both have identical career completion percentages at 63.

Ben has a a better YPA, which is one of the best in the history of the NFL.

Brady averages just 12 more yards a game passing than Ben but averages 4 more attempts a game than Ben.

Ben has had 2 seasons with a 98 QB rating, one with a 97 QB rating and two with over a 100 QB rating.

Brady also has 2 seasons with over a 100 QB rating but no other seasons with a better QB rating than 96.

QB rating's can be misleading but hey, everyone that is discounting Ben is using the "stats" excuse, so there ya go!

So....How exactly isn't Ben up there with Brady? Can't wait to hear more excuses!

Great post man.

[z Revis]

Re: Brady, P.Manning or Roethlisberger?

Hahahah yeah I guess but I always like to provide examples in any arguement and I guess I just fall back to something I actually know. Makes me seem smart, instead of using another example where i'm prolly wrong lol

lol it's cool, just something I've noticed.

I don't think most are arguing that it's just about wins and losses (but hey that is pretty important).

Personally I'm getting a little tired of people acting like Ben doesn't have good numbers in addition to his clutch play.

Here are some numbers (that's stats for those stat people discounting Ben) to consider-

Ben and Brady have identical QB ratings in the playoffs (85).

Ben and Brady have almost the same career QB rating. Ben at 93, Brady at 95.

They both have identical career completion percentages at 63.

Ben has a a better YPA, which is one of the best in the history of the NFL.

Brady averages just 12 more yards a game passing than Ben but averages 4 more attempts a game than Ben.

Ben has had 2 seasons with a 98 QB rating, one with a 97 QB rating and two with over a 100 QB rating.

Brady also has 2 seasons with over a 100 QB rating but no other seasons with a better QB rating than 96.

QB rating's can be misleading but hey, everyone that is discounting Ben is using the "stats" excuse, so there ya go!

So....How exactly isn't Ben up there with Brady? Can't wait to hear more excuses!

Don't respond to me with that. Respond to the guy that brought up the QB rating stuff. I don't think I've used stats to discredit him(except the one post that was in response to the Pro Football article, but those were team statistics, not so much individual ones). My biggest argument against Big Ben is his defense. You can't possibly tell me that that defense doesn't help him tremendously.

Honestly, I don't even like the term discredit. I'm not discrediting him or what he's done. I'm only arguing against him because he's being put on the same level as Peyton Manning and Tom Brady when IMO he shouldn't be on that pedestal. I think Big Ben is a very good QB on an elite team.

Well, I think a lot of people that discount Ben actually don't watch him play on a regular basis and/or listen way too much to the largely ignorant sports media (his numbers aren't that good, he has a great run game, etc.).

Whatever, he's one of the best, IMO, and if the Steelers win on Sunday he's virtually a lock for the HOF. But even so, he's still not "elite". . Whatever works for the FF folks!

It's only opinions man. No need to get worked up about it. There are people that "discredit" or argue against Peyton all the time. I argue back because I enjoy these discussions, but at the end of the day I don't really care. I don't know if you're a Steelers fan, but if you are then who the hell cares what I think? Your team is in it's 3rd Super Bowl in 6 years. It doesn't really matter how good or bad Big Ben is if he's winning Super Bowls for your team. I'd definitely trade places with you.