Brady, P.Manning or Roethlisberger?

[HesTheCoach]

Re: Brady, P.Manning or Roethlisberger?

lol it's cool, just something I've noticed.



Don't respond to me with that. Respond to the guy that brought up the QB rating stuff. I don't think I've used stats to discredit him(except the one post that was in response to the Pro Football article, but those were team statistics, not so much individual ones). My biggest argument against Big Ben is his defense. You can't possibly tell me that that defense doesn't help him tremendously.

Honestly, I don't even like the term discredit. I'm not discrediting him or what he's done. I'm only arguing against him because he's being put on the same level as Peyton Manning and Tom Brady when IMO he shouldn't be on that pedestal. I think Big Ben is a very good QB on an elite team.



It's only opinions man. No need to get worked up about it. There are people that "discredit" or argue against Peyton all the time. I argue back because I enjoy these discussions, but at the end of the day I don't really care. I don't know if you're a Steelers fan, but if you are then who the hell cares what I think? Your team is in it's 3rd Super Bowl in 6 years. It doesn't really matter how good or bad Big Ben is if he's winning Super Bowls for your team. I'd definitely trade places with you.

I didn't mean to respond directly to you, z. It's just that you mentioned stats in your post, but my post was more to everyone that is using stats as a way to put Ben down a notch.

And I'm not getting worked up over this, I'm pretty much used to it. I like the discussions as well which is why I'm posting, it's not like our opinions really even matter in the grand scheme of things.

[z Revis]

Re: Brady, P.Manning or Roethlisberger?

I didn't mean to respond directly to you, z. It's just that you mentioned stats in your post, but my post was more to everyone that is using stats as a way to put Ben down a notch.

And I'm not getting worked up over this, I'm pretty much used to it. I like the discussions as well which is why I'm posting, it's not like our opinions really even matter in the grand scheme of things.

Yeah, it's cool.

Kind of off topic, but I've always wondered what these QB's think of each other. I know Brady and Peyton respect the hell out of one another, maybe Big Ben is in there too. I don't know. But I'd love to hear what a guy like Peyton has to say about Brady, and vice versa. Or one of them on Big Ben, or Brees, etc.

[steelersfan77]

Re: Brady, P.Manning or Roethlisberger?

I love watching both Manning and Brady play. Brady especially, he's always had the steelers number for some reason.

That said I'd take Roethlisberger and I'm not being a homer. I think over the years both Manning and Brady have had pretty good running games and really good defenses. Now saying that I wouldn't put Roethlisberger anywere near them two when it comes to stats.

Plain and simple I just love the way he extends a play, the mental ability to look away at a wide open read and scramble and buy time just to make a bigger play. It doesn't always end up that way, sometimes it ends in a sack but either way it's exciting. It's been a treat watching him do this the very minute he got his opprotunity to play starting quarterback for Pittsburgh.

I remember it like it was yesterday. It was the first game of the NFL season and the steelers were led by the comeback player of the year, Tommy Maddox. Bam! Down goes Maddox after taking a huge hit against the Baltimore Ravens. In here comes this kid out of Miami of Ohio. The future of the steelers organization drafted in the first round, the 3rd quarterback taken.

If you're a steeler fan or you were just watching the game that day what do you remember the most? I know what I remember. It was his uncanny pocket presense, the ability to feel the rush and step up in the pocket or sway out of the pocket to buy time. Fast forward to the year 2011, after all the sacks he's taken in his career and he's never changed. He'll always look to make the big play, for his team, and not for the highlight reel or for his stats.

I can't blame Brady or Manning for not wanting to take punishment inside the pocket or even worse outside of the pocket. Can't say I wouldn't go down with that kind of pressure either if I had a 6'5" 285 pound end chasing me down. Roethlisberger welcomes the contact if and when that time comes. He doesn't always escape those strong arms but he never gives up until he's firmly planted on the ground.

He's a born winner, just like Brady and just like Manning.

[Palo20]

The problem with clutch is that it may not be repeatable. Does it exist? Yes. But is it repeatable?

Brady was hailed as most clutchiest after his first few years and he deserved the label. But what has happened since? Did he lose his innate ability to rise above the rest at crunch time?

What about Big Ben tomorrow. If he has a chance at the game winning drive, is it a clear Steelers victory because he's done it before? Or is every opportunity of clutchitude unique in itself? If Big Ben fails, has he lost it?

Peyton SEEMS to throw the big INT at crunch time. Once again, does this mean it's going to happen every time? I don't think so.

Brett Favre on the other hand is a special story. When you're blessed with Gunslingerness, anything can happen.

[lonewolf371]

Re: Brady, P.Manning or Roethlisberger?

Yeah, it's cool.

Kind of off topic, but I've always wondered what these QB's think of each other. I know Brady and Peyton respect the hell out of one another, maybe Big Ben is in there too. I don't know. But I'd love to hear what a guy like Peyton has to say about Brady, and vice versa. Or one of them on Big Ben, or Brees, etc.

Roethlisberger almost seems like a guy you wouldn't want to know personally. Maybe he's changed, but those disturbing stores about him previously make me not want to think about him much as a person. I hope each one of them respects the other, but thinks that they themselves are the best.

The problem with clutch is that it may not be repeatable. Does it exist? Yes. But is it repeatable?

Brady was hailed as most clutchiest after his first few years and he deserved the label. But what has happened since? Did he lose his innate ability to rise above the rest at crunch time?

What about Big Ben tomorrow. If he has a chance at the game winning drive, is it a clear Steelers victory because he's done it before? Or is every opportunity of clutchitude unique in itself? If Big Ben fails, has he lost it?

Peyton SEEMS to throw the big INT at crunch time. Once again, does this mean it's going to happen every time? I don't think so.

Brett Favre on the other hand is a special story. When you're blessed with Gunslingerness, anything can happen.

Well Brady would have won his fourth Super Bowl if not for a crazy helmet catch that will never happen again. He's also been injured since he won it. Only this most recent year has he begun to return to his level of play before 2008. You'll be hearing from the Pats a few more times in the coming years, and I'd be shocked if Brady didn't show up in a Championship Game or a Super Bowl one or two more times before his career's over.

As for clutchiness, you're never always going to be clutch or always going to be not-clutch. It's not a number on a paper, where 99 clutch beats 80 clutch every time. But I think the fact that when we see certain players consistently repeat their clutch performances and other players that consistently fail allows us to say that there are players, and then there are playoff players.

[kingkilla56]

Re: Brady, P.Manning or Roethlisberger?

Yeah I dont believe in "clutchness" at all. A guy is gonna play to his skill in any given situation and it will not be 100% success or fail rate. Peyton Manning has led some comebacks and failed at others, is he clutch? Tom the same, Ben as well. Brees has made great comeback victories this season and failed against the Seahawks, is he clutch? David Garrard has had comeback victories and failures, but since we all dont put him on allmighty qb pedestals, he doesnt even get close to being mentioned as clutch. Same for Vince Young, who has a whole lot of amazing comebacks on his resume...not considered clutch. So the term clutch means nothing. Good players have a better shot at coming through when you need it versus bad players. Doesnt mean its guaranteed either way.

So this clutchness thing is craziness. Ben Peyton and Tom are all beasts and I wish we had any of them.

[lonewolf371]

Re: Brady, P.Manning or Roethlisberger?

Yeah I dont believe in "clutchness" at all. A guy is gonna play to his skill in any given situation and it will not be 100% success or fail rate. Peyton Manning has led some comebacks and failed at others, is he clutch? Tom the same, Ben as well. Brees has made great comeback victories this season and failed against the Seahawks, is he clutch? David Garrard has had comeback victories and failures, but since we all dont put him on allmighty qb pedestals, he doesnt even get close to being mentioned as clutch. Same for Vince Young, who has a whole lot of amazing comebacks on his resume...not considered clutch. So the term clutch means nothing. Good players have a better shot at coming through when you need it versus bad players. Doesnt mean its guaranteed either way.

So this clutchness thing is craziness. Ben Peyton and Tom are all beasts and I wish we had any of them.

Yeah, if you want to take the human element out of it. Players aren't robots; they don't just play to some magic skill level. Some can elevate their game when their teams need them to and others can't.

[kingkilla56]

Re: Brady, P.Manning or Roethlisberger?

Elevate their skill? Thats a joke right?

The only thing I will give to "clutchness" is a player increasing their focus in the game. If a player becomes more focused as the game is expiring then I can understand that, but a player literally getting better at football as time expires is far fetched. To me at least.

[HesTheCoach]

Re: Brady, P.Manning or Roethlisberger?

Elevate their skill? Thats a joke right?

The only thing I will give to "clutchness" is a player increasing their focus in the game. If a player becomes more focused as the game is expiring then I can understand that, but a player literally getting better at football as time expires is far fetched. To me at least.

And yet there is evidence of certain players/QB's (Montana, Brady, Ben) that have played great in big games when it really mattered while other QB's like Testaverde always seemed to come up short. You could even look at a future HOF QB like Favre who has a history of choking in the playoffs and throwing crucial INT's at bad times that have cost his teams games in the playoffs.

When you see a pattern, it's no longer coincidence, IMO. Some players play better when the game is on the line more than others. You don't agree with that?

[Palo20]

And yet there is evidence of certain players/QB's (Montana, Brady, Ben) that have played great in big games when it really mattered while other QB's like Testaverde always seemed to come up short. You could even look at a future HOF QB like Favre who has a history of choking in the playoffs and throwing crucial INT's at bad times that have cost his teams games in the playoffs.

When you see a pattern, it's no longer coincidence, IMO. Some players play better when the game is on the line more than others. You don't agree with that?

Problem is, Brady, Manning, Ben, Montana are ALWAYS better than Testaverde, not just in big games.

[biglen]

McNabb is the king of coming up short.

[pittsburgher86]

Re: Brady, P.Manning or Roethlisberger?

I would take Ben Roethlisberger. Ben has a great ability to make plays when it counts the most. I'm not saying Manning and Brady can't, cause I know they both can. But, if Payton Manning or Tom Brady played on the Steelers, they would get eaten alive. What I mean by that is, is that we all now the Steelers O-Line is pretty weak, Brady and Manning don't have the ability to escape pressure, this is why I would take Roethlisberger. Also, if Roethlisbeger did get the protection that Brady and Manning does, he'd be just as good as them.

[Palo20]

I would take Ben Roethlisberger. Ben has a great ability to make plays when it counts the most. I'm not saying Manning and Brady can't, cause I know they both can. But, if Payton Manning or Tom Brady played on the Steelers, they would get eaten alive. What I mean by that is, is that we all now the Steelers O-Line is pretty weak, Brady and Manning don't have the ability to escape pressure, this is why I would take Roethlisberger. Also, if Roethlisbeger did get the protection that Brady and Manning does, he'd be just as good as them.

Ben makes the line look worse than it is.

[HesTheCoach]

Re: Brady, P.Manning or Roethlisberger?

Problem is, Brady, Manning, Ben, Montana are ALWAYS better than Testaverde, not just in big games.

True, but Testaverde is in the top 30 (maybe top 20) in passing yards all-time and he played on some pretty good teams. But the guy was sort of a loser going back to his college days.

And how about Favre? He's choked a number of times in the playoffs throwing balls up for grabs like he just didn't care.

As someone else said, McNabb. The list goes on. There's a line between guys that do indeed take it to another level and guys that don't, IMO.

[HesTheCoach]

Re: Brady, P.Manning or Roethlisberger?

Ben makes the line look worse than it is.

I'd have to go about 50/50 on that. Sometimes he does by waiting in the pocket, sometimes the line just misses blocks. The O-line hasn't played that bad this year but it's far from an elite group.