Brady, P.Manning or Roethlisberger?

[KSUowls]

Re: Brady, P.Manning or Roethlisberger?

I can't believe this is an actual debate. I actually do give Ben a lot of credit. He gives the Steelers a legit passing threat, he keeps plays alive with his size and mobility, and he's just hard to take down. You can't just put anyone on that team and have them go win 2 superbowls. However, he doesn't have the skill set that either Brady or Manning have. The only reason I can really think to take him if I'm given an unknown team would be how hard it is to bring him down.

Give me Brady.

[WDOgF0reL1fe]

Re: Brady, P.Manning or Roethlisberger?

I cant believe some people have been using NBA All star game appearances and Pro Bowls as analogies and reasons some players are better than others.

Your credibility is completely thrown out when using those to evaluate players.

Back to the topic,
as of now, ill take Big Ben. I cant stand him or the Steelers, but I respect him and how well he has evolved as a QB.

I think Manning is easily third on this list IMO.

[dickey1331]

Re: Brady, P.Manning or Roethlisberger?

Mine would go:
Manning
Brady



Big Ben

[Andrews85]

Re: Brady, P.Manning or Roethlisberger?

Ah yes, the classic "I don't care what any factual analysis says, he has magical clutchiness!" argument.

Yes, his 35.5 rating against the Jets, sure, HE led them to a win...not any of the other players on the team, only him. Because of his clutchy clutchy clutch clutch clutchiness. It doesn't matter that he threw two interceptions, his team won because he's clutchy! Not because of defense, or a great running game, but clutchy!

You obviously didnt watch the game.

[NovaStar]

Re: Brady, P.Manning or Roethlisberger?

Some of you guys don't understand sports if you attempt to slight Big Ben on what he does based on stats and "factual analysis". The only factual analysis that matters is did he lead his team to a win, when it matterered the most. All of this tables, statistics, qb rating, those discussions are for people that don't understand the human condition and attempt to explain away (through stats and logic) what they don't understand.

After the fact analysis is irrelevant when one speaks of being clutch. Clutch is a real, tangible thing that only occurs "in the moment" I would describe it as "your ability to impose your will in the moment" Ben has shown it a great deal, Brady has shown it a great deal, Peyton has shown it a great deal (just not as much in the playoffs as the other two.)

The qb is the lead position on the team, the general if you will, most of the time victory or defeat rests in his hands. Sure every position is important on a winning team but like Jordan said, "their aint no I in team but there is an I in win". Most teams success and failures rest with the qb, that does not mean that everyone else does not play their part. There is a reason why the qb is the highest paid player on most teams.

Big Ben for what he does is absolutely amazing! I would put him right up there with Brady if I had to choose a qb to win a big game, but for game to game consistency and skill set, you go with Brady or Peyton.

[MrNFL_FanIQ]

Re: Brady, P.Manning or Roethlisberger?

Well, this is clearly a lost cause.

Enjoy believing in magic, guys. I'm done here. I'm not going to waste my time anymore.

"ALL HAIL OMG CLUTCHINESS! QB IS THE ONLY POSITION THAT MATTERS!"

[jeremym480]

Re: Brady, P.Manning or Roethlisberger?

Well, this is clearly a lost cause.

Enjoy believing in magic, guys. I'm done here. I'm not going to waste my time anymore.

"ALL HAIL OMG CLUTCHINESS! QB IS THE ONLY POSITION THAT MATTERS!"

If you say so, although I haven't seen anyone else say that in this thread.

[z Revis]

Re: Brady, P.Manning or Roethlisberger?

To ignore stats is foolish IMO(especially stats like the ones in that article a page or two back, about as in depth as you can get). They're a reflection of what you did on the field. Sure, some can be misleading. But so can wins and losses. The perfect example is Peyton and Big Ben vs the Jets this year. I don't think it's arguable that Peyton played a better overall game than Big Ben. He even did more in 'crunch time'. Big Ben had to get 2 first downs. Peyton had to drive the field to put his team into FG position. Both successfully did it. The difference is Ben had a defense to bail him out when need be, and Peyton's defense blew the game.

Stats aren't the end all be all, but neither are wins and losses. If you disagree with the latter, then you're essentially saying that Trent Dilfer is better than Dan Marino.

[jth1331]

Re: Brady, P.Manning or Roethlisberger?

Some of you guys don't understand sports if you attempt to slight Big Ben on what he does based on stats and "factual analysis". The only factual analysis that matters is did he lead his team to a win, when it matterered the most. All of this tables, statistics, qb rating, those discussions are for people that don't understand the human condition and attempt to explain away (through stats and logic) what they don't understand.

After the fact analysis is irrelevant when one speaks of being clutch. Clutch is a real, tangible thing that only occurs "in the moment" I would describe it as "your ability to impose your will in the moment" Ben has shown it a great deal, Brady has shown it a great deal, Peyton has shown it a great deal (just not as much in the playoffs as the other two.)

The qb is the lead position on the team, the general if you will, most of the time victory or defeat rests in his hands. Sure every position is important on a winning team but like Jordan said, "their aint no I in team but there is an I in win". Most teams success and failures rest with the qb, that does not mean that everyone else does not play their part. There is a reason why the qb is the highest paid player on most teams.

Big Ben for what he does is absolutely amazing! I would put him right up there with Brady if I had to choose a qb to win a big game, but for game to game consistency and skill set, you go with Brady or Peyton.

You can not measure clutch. People like to think you can, but it is not possible. Just like luck.

[Andrews85]

Re: Brady, P.Manning or Roethlisberger?

You can not measure clutch. People like to think you can, but it is not possible. Just like luck.

We're not measuring "clutch", we are stating past experience.

[z Revis]

Re: Brady, P.Manning or Roethlisberger?

We're not measuring "clutch", we are stating past experience.

Stating that Big Ben is as clutch as they come is measuring his ability in the "clutch".

I do believe clutch is real, however. I know some people don't, but I don't see how it isn't. Some people handle pressure better than others. It's a human thing. It extends much farther than leading your team to victory in a 2 minute drill down 1 score in the Playoffs. It's a daily occurrence in ordinary people's lives. This is going to sound silly, but peer pressure.. when you're in middle school and you're walking home from school, alone, and some kids run up to you telling you to smoke this joint.. what do you do? You either say no or you give in to the pressure. If you give in, you're not a person that can handle pressure. That's an extreme example, but the point is that it's a human thing. That said, I have no idea how to measure it in QB's playing in the NFL. Given that guys such as Brady, Peyton, Big Ben are some of the all time greats, I'd say they're pretty damn good at handling pressure. Merely playing in front of 70k+ people on Sunday's, and millions watching you at home, and having to live up to great expectations every week is enough to say they're all clutch.

[wwharton]

Re: Brady, P.Manning or Roethlisberger?

Stating that Big Ben is as clutch as they come is measuring his ability in the "clutch".

I do believe clutch is real, however. I know some people don't, but I don't see how it isn't. Some people handle pressure better than others. It's a human thing. It extends much farther than leading your team to victory in a 2 minute drill down 1 score in the Playoffs. It's a daily occurrence in ordinary people's lives. This is going to sound silly, but peer pressure.. when you're in middle school and you're walking home from school, alone, and some kids run up to you telling you to smoke this joint.. what do you do? You either say no or you give in to the pressure. If you give in, you're not a person that can handle pressure. That's an extreme example, but the point is that it's a human thing. That said, I have no idea how to measure it in QB's playing in the NFL. Given that guys such as Brady, Peyton, Big Ben are some of the all time greats, I'd say they're pretty damn good at handling pressure. Merely playing in front of 70k+ people on Sunday's, and millions watching you at home, and having to live up to great expectations every week is enough to say they're all clutch.

Also, the problem with these "clutch" arguments is the measurement of them is connected to the performance of ALL the other players on the team presenting opportunities. For example, how can anyone really say Ben is the most clutch in a SB situation bc of what he did against Arizona when we haven't seen what other QBs would do in that situation? Who knows how "clutch" even the likes of Matt Cassell or Freeman would be in that situation? They've never had a chance to prove it.

That's the black and white example. In another thread I went into more detail about how having a great defense keeps the game close which also gives a QB more chance to prove how they handle those situations late in games. In the same sense "clutch" is wrongly assessed to some situations where QBs did make the necessary plays and the defense or special teams screwed the game up and the performance was erased. I don't think (I hope anyway) anyone thinks Rivers isn't "clutch" but his record sucked this year because of issues with special teams. Rodgers' first year starting they talked about how many games were lost in the 4th quarter which would say he's horrible in the clutch, but the D was riddled with injury and they ruined many great late game drives that Rodgers converted.

Clutch is very real but no one here that's using it to prop Ben up to the level of two QBs that may go down as the best ever is accounting for all the variables needed to properly guestimate it.

[Andrews85]

Re: Brady, P.Manning or Roethlisberger?

I love when Manning and Brady get the ball in the 4th with under 2 mins left and successfully lead there team down the field to win the game and people say, great 4th quarter comeback by Manning/Brady. But when Ben does it, oh that was a great team effort.

[jeremym480]

Re: Brady, P.Manning or Roethlisberger?

Those stats that were previously posted are interesting to look and analyze. However, like Revis said stats can be misleading. Mainly because just like QB's shouldn't get all the praise for success they shouldn't get all the blame for things out of their control either. Things like dropped passes and tipped interceptions happen all the time.

My original post was also in reference to another poster saying clutch is mythical. Which I'm sure there are plenty of folks that think it is. They think that everything is all about talent and luck, maybe it is. However, to me there is something to be said for those QB's like Joe Montana and John Elway who never blink an eye even under the most adverse of conditions. If I were to compare clutch to a everyday average Joe situation, I'd say when some guys meet a hot girl at a bar and freeze up and fumble over their words and what not. While others are able to stay cool and on the top of their game even with the hottest of girls. Also, people who have been in sales before can probably relate as well. When you have that difficult customers who is coming at you with questions from all angles. Do they have to stop and think about something. Making themselves appear uninformed or unconfident or are they ready to spit out an answer without thinking twice and eventually close the sale?

So my point was not to completely disregard the stats but, to point out how Ben has came through in extremely high pressure situations in his last three playoff games. I've also never once said that Ben is a better QB that the other two but, that at the end of the game he and his team seem to come through and make the plays that need to be made. Sure his lineman have to block, his receivers have to run precise routes, catch the ball and the defense and special teams have to do their job. But, the QB has to read defenses, get rid of the ball accurately, protect the ball, etc. And whether people like to admit it or not Ben is a big part of that for Pittsburgh and IMO he just has that something special about him. Especially, in the waning minutes of big games. Dare I call it the 'It factor"? I mean, from what I can recall the guy just doesn't make big mistakes in the final half of the 4th quarter in big playoff games. He's on of those guys like Montana or Elway (disclaimer I'm not saying that he is as good as either one of those guys) who has ice in their veins. And when the game is on the line he just comes in and makes play after play regardless of what his stat-line was for the rest of the game.

[kjcheezhead]

Re: Brady, P.Manning or Roethlisberger?

I love when Manning and Brady get the ball in the 4th with under 2 mins left and successfully lead there team down the field to win the game and people say, great 4th quarter comeback by Manning/Brady. But when Ben does it, oh that was a great team effort.

It's because of what Ben does before the 2 minute drill.

vs. the Jets he was 10-19 for 133 yrds and 2 ints , but people talk about his 2 clutch passes on the last drive.

vs the Cardinals in the Superbowl before the game winning 84 yrd drive he was 16-23 for 172 yards 0 tds and 1 int.

vs the Seahawks in the Superbowl he was 9-21 for 123 yrds 0 tds and 2 ints. No game winning plays needed.


Big Ben is clutch when the game is on the line, the problem for me is in the games I've seen, he's been mediocre at best for the first 3 qtrs.