NFL Off Topic

[3304Life]

Re: NFL Off Topic

Yeah that whole call to me was just off. I wouldn’t even say not taking a knee is laziness, either. It’s just become pretty much the common thing to do. I’m sure if the NFL said that there was no leeway with regards to kickoff returns or ‘fair catches’ then players would kneel.

I think the only person at fault here is the ref. Just catch the ball, rule it a touchback and it wouldn’t even enter anyone’s mind because it was such a nondescript moment of what was a really good game.

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: NFL Off Topic

On offense, I think being in the huddle is the only point where it becomes a penalty pre-snap for the offense.

Gotcha.

I was asking because we’ve all seen plenty of times at the end of every game where the winning team will take a knee to run out the clock(let’s say there’s like 20-30 seconds left)and then everyone is running onto the field before the clock hits zero and was wondering if the Refs could technically call too many players/coaches on the field if there was still time on the clock?

[ggsimmonds]

Re: NFL Off Topic

Gotcha.

I was asking because we’ve all seen plenty of times at the end of every game where the winning team will take a knee to run out the clock(let’s say there’s like 20-30 seconds left)and then everyone is running onto the field before the clock hits zero and was wondering if the Refs could technically call too many players/coaches on the field if there was still time on the clock?

I think technically they could call unsportsmanlike conduct for multiple reasons. Coaches entering the field of play, sideline players entering the field of play not for subs, removing helmet on the field of play, etc

[p_rushing]

Re: NFL Off Topic

The signal is not giving yourself up and you can still return the ball. I know it's been done before. Any team stopping play would be stupid.

As for the forward pass thing, there is no passing on a return. It would be illegal forward lateral if not ruled a fumble, which then could be declined and the result would be a TD.

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[mestevo]

Re: NFL Off Topic

The signal is not giving yourself up and you can still return the ball. I know it's been done before. Any team stopping play would be stupid.

As for the forward pass thing, there is no passing on a return. It would be illegal forward lateral if not ruled a fumble, which then could be declined and the result would be a TD.

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Because it is a pass and not a lateral, it wouldn't even be a live ball. Would be a penalty, doesn't convert the pass into a fumble / lateral even given the option to decline (I'd expect the penalty to be enforced from the 25).

Glad common sense prevailed, "clearly making no effort to advance" (rule 7, section 2, article 1, d/1) and then tossing the ball at the ref making it a touchback is clearly the right call, the rule and precedent are pretty clear.

[p_rushing]

Re: NFL Off Topic

Because it is a pass and not a lateral, it wouldn't even be a live ball. Would be a penalty, doesn't convert the pass into a fumble / lateral even given the option to decline (I'd expect the penalty to be enforced from the 25).



Glad common sense prevailed, "clearly making no effort to advance" (rule 7, section 2, article 1, d/1) and then tossing the ball at the ref making it a touchback is clearly the right call, the rule and precedent are pretty clear.

You can't pass on a return, an illegal forward pass is past the line of scrimmage. As there is no line of scrimmage and it's a change of posession, you can't have a pass, legal or illegal.

It would be a fumble or lateral and neither of those are dead balls.

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[mestevo]

Re: NFL Off Topic

You can't pass on a return, an illegal forward pass is past the line of scrimmage. As there is no line of scrimmage and it's a change of posession, you can't have a pass, legal or illegal.

It would be a fumble or lateral and neither of those are dead balls.

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I don't think that's accurate. Anything that is not a legal pass is therefore an illegal pass and all of the same rules apply regardless of the circumstances or the type of play. A forward pass is never a lateral under any definition.

Rule 8, Section 1, Article 2 1(d) would apply here:

Any other forward pass by either team is illegal and is a foul by the passing team,
including:
(d) A forward pass thrown after there has been a change of possession.

The supplemental notes for that rule even have a special teams example:

A.R. 8.4 A punt is caught on the receiving team’s 20-yard line. The player who caught the ball attempts to throw a
backward pass, but the ball goes forward and hits the ground. The kicking team falls on it.
Ruling: Illegal forward pass. The ball is dead when it hits the ground. Penalize from the spot of the pass. B’s
ball first-and-10 on B15 (8-1-2-Pen. c).

[kehlis]

Re: NFL Off Topic

You can't pass on a return, an illegal forward pass is past the line of scrimmage. As there is no line of scrimmage and it's a change of posession, you can't have a pass, legal or illegal.

It would be a fumble or lateral and neither of those are dead balls.

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We’ve seen illegal forward passes called on kick returns before.

Usually when a team needs to return a kick at the end of a game to tie or win and it’s never been from inside the end zone.

Remember the controversy around whether the Music City Miracle was a legal pass?

The question was around whether is a was a legal lateral or an illegal forward pass.

[p_rushing]

Re: NFL Off Topic

I don't think that's accurate. Anything that is not a legal pass is therefore an illegal pass and all of the same rules apply regardless of the circumstances or the type of play. A forward pass is never a lateral under any definition.

Rule 8, Section 1, Article 2 1(d) would apply here:

Any other forward pass by either team is illegal and is a foul by the passing team,
including:
(d) A forward pass thrown after there has been a change of possession.

The supplemental notes for that rule even have a special teams example:

A.R. 8.4 A punt is caught on the receiving team’s 20-yard line. The player who caught the ball attempts to throw a
backward pass, but the ball goes forward and hits the ground. The kicking team falls on it.
Ruling: Illegal forward pass. The ball is dead when it hits the ground. Penalize from the spot of the pass. B’s
ball first-and-10 on B15 (8-1-2-Pen. c).

We’ve seen illegal forward passes called on kick returns before.

Usually when a team needs to return a kick at the end of a game to tie or win and it’s never been from inside the end zone.

Remember the controversy around whether the Music City Miracle was a legal pass?

The question was around whether is a was a legal lateral or an illegal forward pass.

I believe forward pass and lateral are basically the same thing, other than ruling it dead when it hits the ground. I've never seen them rule it dead if it hits the ground, the play continues on and usually the penalty is just declined.

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[mestevo]

Re: NFL Off Topic

I believe forward pass and lateral are basically the same thing, other than ruling it dead when it hits the ground. I've never seen them rule it dead if it hits the ground, the play continues on and usually the penalty is just declined.

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I mean, if you distill it down to 'the ball leaves someone's hand' then I agree. Otherwise, no, when discussing the rules and their application. In the NFL a forward pass has a distinct meaning and rules related to it, everything else is either a fumble or a backwards pass I believe.

Definitions and examples: https://static.nfl.com/static/conten...ass_Fumble.pdf

[Cardot]

Re: NFL Off Topic

So if a team is running the 2 minute offense, can they complete a pass in the middle of the field....and before he is tackled, the receiver throws the ball forward into the ground. They get backed up 5 yards, but the clock stops? I am guessing there is a clause to prevent this??

EDIT: Nevermind, I see it comes back to the LOS if the second pass.

Penalties:
(a) For a forward pass from beyond the line: Loss of down and five yards from the spot of the pass. See 14-8-2. See S.N. 3 below.
(b) For a second forward pass from behind the line, or for a forward pass that was thrown after the ball returned behind the line: Loss of five yards.

[ImTellinTim]

Re: NFL Off Topic

Question for anyone: Is there a penalty for too many players on the field or just only for too many players in the huddle?

On offense, I think being in the huddle is the only point where it becomes a penalty pre-snap for the offense.

Huddle or formation. You can't have more than 11 guys clearly lining up for the play (this comes into play in a no-huddle situation).

[l3ulvl]

Re: NFL Off Topic

Gotcha.

I was asking because we’ve all seen plenty of times at the end of every game where the winning team will take a knee to run out the clock(let’s say there’s like 20-30 seconds left)and then everyone is running onto the field before the clock hits zero and was wondering if the Refs could technically call too many players/coaches on the field if there was still time on the clock?

gentlemen agreement

[Blzer]

Re: NFL Off Topic

Two rules questions regarding running plays:

1) If a ball is handed off, it can still be passed, correct? I'm guessing the answer is yes, but I want to be sure.

I know forward passes (even behind the LOS) can't be passed and I know that backward tosses can. I also know that flea-flickers are often handed off at first but then tossed back to the QB afterward, so I thought maybe it has to do with going to the original person or being tossed last or something. Every double-reverse pass play that I see always seems to be tossed to the last person, so I thought perhaps there is something against passing it if the last recipient is handed off the ball.

2) If there is a toss play to a running back that is eligible to throw the ball, can he throw it out of bounds much like a QB (without being penalized for grounding) to avoid being stuffed in the backfield for a loss of yardage? I know he has to get it past the line of scrimmage, but he'll likely be out of any tackle box so he wouldn't have to target a receiver in the process.

[mestevo]

Re: NFL Off Topic

You are permitted one forward pass from behind the line of scrimmage.

Ball security being what it is, it's usually better to eat a few yards than to hope a RB can handle the ball in a way that allows them to throw it away. I've considered that before too.

Reverses are typically laterals backwards.

Nothing in the rules about a certain player being able to throw the ball for the most part, that I'm aware of, it's a bit simpler and just the above.