NFL Off Topic

[J_Posse]

Re: NFL Off Topic

The issue is they exist.

If the Braves, Chiefs & Blackhawks feel like also changing their names then so be it.

There is a clear & obvious distinction between those names & 'Skins/Indians (with the terrible caricature "Chief Wahoo" that existed for too long).

Yes, indigenous people face a lot steeper hurdles to face than just inappropriate sports names, just like any minorities in America, but why is it even acceptable at this point? This isn't 1933 anymore, social norms & standards have changed so why continue with an dictionary defined slur as a team name?

Oh, because it doesn't offend you or harken back to negative imagery or the genocide of your ethnicity. Cool, well thankfully there are a lot less narrow-minded, callous individuals in the world, today.

Official HQ of Bills Backer/Spurs Nation

[l3ulvl]

Re: NFL Off Topic

No.

I was criticizing the people who co-opt every movement and take umbrage with every single thing even though they have no ties to anything at hand. The ones who have a desire to just be part of something, so as not to appear any other way. The reddit-y, virtue signaling, photo filter, hashtagging, "there, that's better" "phew, we did it" types. That venn diagram is a big fat circle.

I wonder if this is why I can't stand the Descovy commercial. It doesn't have anything to do with me, and I'm sitting here thinking "this feels wrong"

it also comes on 50 times a day so maybe that has something to do with it

Spoiler

[TheMatrix31]

Re: NFL Off Topic

If the Braves, Chiefs & Blackhawks feel like also changing their names then so be it.

There is a clear & obvious distinction between those names & 'Skins/Indians (with the terrible caricature "Chief Wahoo" that existed for too long).

Yes, indigenous people face a lot steeper hurdles to face than just inappropriate sports names, just like any minorities in America, but why is it even acceptable at this point? This isn't 1933 anymore, social norms & standards have changed so why continue with an dictionary defined slur as a team name?

Oh, because it doesn't offend you or harken back to negative imagery or the genocide of your ethnicity. Cool, well thankfully there are a lot less narrow-minded, callous individuals in the world, today.

Official HQ of Bills Backer/Spurs Nation

I don't think speaking about matters of genocide as it pertains to ethnicity is the right tree to be barking up when it comes to me, haha.

[PeoplesChampGB]

Re: NFL Off Topic

So what percentage of Native Americans do we need to call for a name change? Majority? Just one Native? That's what I want to know. They haven't polled me yet.

I wouldn't mark yes or no. I'd write in "Get a life."

[Master Live 013]

Re: NFL Off Topic

I think you have it backwards, many of the people calling for name changes see them as either racists or at the very least insensitive and will only not call for their removal if and only if whatever Native American community(ies) they feel has "jurisdiction" over the matter gives its express and affirmative consent that the name in question is ok to stay.

[PeoplesChampGB]

Re: NFL Off Topic

I think you have it backwards, many of the people calling for name changes see them as either racists or at the very least insensitive and will only not call for their removal if and only if whatever Native American community(ies) they feel has "jurisdiction" over the matter gives its express and affirmative consent that the name in question is ok to stay.

So a bunch of non-Natives are calling for removal of a team's name until the Natives say it's okay? Seems like they think they have jurisdiction over the people that are supposedly being affected by it and what they find offensive.

Seems kinda backwards.

[Jr.]

Re: NFL Off Topic

So a bunch of non-Natives are calling for removal of a team's name until the Natives say it's okay? Seems like they think they have jurisdiction over the people that are supposedly being affected by it and what they find offensive.

Seems kinda backwards.

Native Americans might not be actively leading the charge this time, but to say they're only "supposedly affected" is not true.

From a study published this year:

For example, among Native Americans who frequently engage in tribal or cultural practices, 67 percent find the Redskins team name offensive; 70 percent find sports fans wearing chief headdresses offensive; 65 percent find sports fans chanting the tomahawk chop offensive; and 73 percent find sports fans imitating Native American dances offensive.

Link to the write-up of the study from the University of Michigan: https://record.umich.edu/articles/st...mascots-names/

Here's another write-up of the study that has a picture headlining it with the caption that reads:

Native American leaders protest outside U.S. Bank Stadium before an NFL football game between the Minnesota Vikings and the Washington Redskins, Thursday, October 24, 2019, in Minneapolis. The group was protesting to urge the visiting Washington team to retire the Redskins team name and mascot. (AP Photo/Bruce Kluckhohn)

https://www.washingtonian.com/2020/02/21/a-new-study-contradicts-a-washington-post-poll-about-how-native-americans-view-the-redskins-name/

One commonly referenced poll when I looked into this was from the Washington Post in 2016 that said only 9% were offended by the name out of 500 respondents. But there has been some important critiques of it. Namely: they called respondents instead of using anonymous means (much more likely to be influenced or respond in a polite manner if you're talking to the person asking questions than if answering anonymously), and they won't publish the details of how the poll was conducted (format of the questions, order, etc.).

So to insinuate that this is the work of someone other than Native-Americans is misleading.

[zello144]

Re: NFL Off Topic

But there has been some important critiques of it. Namely: they called respondents instead of using anonymous means (much more likely to be influenced or respond in a polite manner if you're talking to the person asking questions than if answering anonymously), and they won't publish the details of how the poll was conducted (format of the questions, order, etc.).

So to insinuate that this is the work of someone other than Native-Americans is misleading.

There's also the fact that there are people who are like 2% Native American and use that and claim that they are Native American.

[dubcity]

Re: NFL Off Topic

Natives are no different than anyone else when it comes to this stuff. The vast vast majority of them are just living their lives, not worried or caught up in outrage about social issues enough to go out of their way and get involved. That doesn't mean things shouldn't change. I actually work on a reservation, and I see more Chiefs, Cleveland Indians and Redskins gear around than anything else. To some extent those images have been reappropriated, but you can't fully erase the (at best) condescension and dehumanization behind them until you actually erase them.

[Jr.]

Re: NFL Off Topic

There's also the fact that there are people who are like 2% Native American and use that and claim that they are Native American.

Right, that's more of the data that's not released (how they got their population)

[ggsimmonds]

Re: NFL Off Topic

No.

I was criticizing the people who co-opt every movement and take umbrage with every single thing even though they have no ties to anything at hand. The ones who have a desire to just be part of something, so as not to appear any other way. The reddit-y, virtue signaling, photo filter, hashtagging, "there, that's better" "phew, we did it" types. That venn diagram is a big fat circle.

If the name change pressure reaches Florida State I will agree that you may have a point. But Redskins? Nah, what you say doesn't apply here

[PeoplesChampGB]

Re: NFL Off Topic

If the name change pressure reaches Florida State I will agree that you may have a point. But Redskins? Nah, what you say doesn't apply here

Famous last words.

[kehlis]

Re: NFL Off Topic

If the name change pressure reaches Florida State I will agree that you may have a point. But Redskins? Nah, what you say doesn't apply here

Florida State did come under pressure years ago to change their name but got exemption due to multiple Seminole nations in Florida (And I think Oklahoma) saying they do not object to the name.

Here's an article I found from around that time describing the relationship (not intentionally, it actually is also a comparison to the name Redskins):

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/11/native-imagery-in-college-sports/417036/

Interesting to note, they said at the bottom of the article, they are open to change if Seminole nation were to ever change their mind:

Not lost on the Florida State community was the fact that the resolution passing was unusual for a culture that “rarely puts such things into writing,” according to the university. Due to the uncommon nature of the resolution cementing the institution-tribe relationship, members of the university community say they feel the gravity of responsibility accompanying the representation.

“If at any time [the tribe’s members] were to decide they are not okay with” the use of the Seminole name, logos, imagery and likeness, says Brooks, “it would stop immediately.”

[ggsimmonds]

Re: NFL Off Topic

Florida State did come under pressure years ago to change their name but got exemption due to multiple Seminole nations in Florida (And I think Oklahoma) saying they do not object to the name.

Here's an article I found from around that time describing the relationship (not intentionally, it actually is also a comparison to the name Redskins):

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/11/native-imagery-in-college-sports/417036/

Interesting to note, they said at the bottom of the article, they are open to change if Seminole nation were to ever change their mind:

I remember that, and others need to as well. There is undoubtedly a wing of white people who think it is their calling to fight injustice, even if they are the only ones who see it as an injustice. I know people like this, they'll tell people what they should be offended by and if you aren't offended, no worries they will be offended for you.

I don't think that applies to the Redskins name. But if I see a news story that says there is a growing movement to change the Seminole name, I know where the "movement" is coming from, and it wouldn't be Seminole nation.

[Fresh Tendrils]

Re: NFL Off Topic

Name them after Snyder - call them the Washington Morons.

Even with "appropriate" names it still comes off as callous to me - using an oppressed culture's heritage and symbolism by the oppressing society? Doesn't sit right to me and it feels like an extension of empirical conquest.