Elite QB vs. Game Manager: A Disccussion

[jWILL253]

Re: Elite QB vs. Game Manager: A Disccussion

I'll finish up my part of this thread later, between tonight, or tomorrow. I've been working a lot and haven't been able to go in like I want to.

[ggsimmonds]

Re: Elite QB vs. Game Manager: A Disccussion

I dislike these labels because we are at the point where no one knows what they mean.

But what the hell, in the spirit of this thread, here is my take:

Ideally every QB in the NFL should be a game manager. However, some guys (e.g. Rodgers) goes above managing a game and takes it over. Lets call these guys game changers. They don't just manage the game, they determine it.

It goes the other way too. Some QBs come up short. These guys are either not good QBs in need of replacement or they are fortunate enough to be on a good team. In the latter case, I call them babysitters. This is Trent Dilfer. These guys are asked to do one thing: don't screw up and cost us the game. In the former case, where they don't have a good running game and/or defense, they just need to be replaced because they cannot rely on others to carry the team.

The majority of QBs are game managers and nothing more. But in my view, it is more of a style over substance distinction. Just because QB A is a game changer and B is a manager does not mean that A is the better QB. Think of Cutler. Here we have a "game changer" who 80% of the time fails. These labels say nothing of consistency or efficiency.

[wwharton]

Re: Elite QB vs. Game Manager: A Disccussion

I dislike these labels because we are at the point where no one knows what they mean.

But what the hell, in the spirit of this thread, here is my take:

Ideally every QB in the NFL should be a game manager. However, some guys (e.g. Rodgers) goes above managing a game and takes it over. Lets call these guys game changers. They don't just manage the game, they determine it.

It goes the other way too. Some QBs come up short. These guys are either not good QBs in need of replacement or they are fortunate enough to be on a good team. In the latter case, I call them babysitters. This is Trent Dilfer. These guys are asked to do one thing: don't screw up and cost us the game. In the former case, where they don't have a good running game and/or defense, they just need to be replaced because they cannot rely on others to carry the team.

The majority of QBs are game managers and nothing more. But in my view, it is more of a style over substance distinction. Just because QB A is a game changer and B is a manager does not mean that A is the better QB. Think of Cutler. Here we have a "game changer" who 80% of the time fails. These labels say nothing of consistency or efficiency.

This makes the most sense because it doesn't equate game managers to average QBs and "game changers" (or whatever someone wants to call them) to elite QBs.

My biggest problem with the labels is usually that it's one or the other, when there are guys (Cutler is a perfect example) who plays like he can take over a game but fails at it more than you'd like.

[BigDaddyHolmes]

Re: Elite QB vs. Game Manager: A Disccussion

I think the perfect example of a game manager would be Wilson. You can win some Super Bowls with him (Flacco too), but if you have to count on them to put up 3-5 TDs a game, forget it. P Manning(elite) on the other hand was more then capable of doing that.

Career-
Game Manager exampes-
r wilson
j flacco
T Romo
M Ryan
E Manning (just not consistent enough to rate higher)

In between manager/elite examples-
P Rivers
Ben Roth (this yr decides if he gets moved down for me)
A Luck (cleans up turn overs I'll put him elite)
D Bree's


Elite example-
Manning(maybe not anymore if he has lost as much strength as it seams he has)
A Rodgers
T Brady

[ggsimmonds]

Re: Elite QB vs. Game Manager: A Disccussion

This makes the most sense because it doesn't equate game managers to average QBs and "game changers" (or whatever someone wants to call them) to elite QBs.

My biggest problem with the labels is usually that it's one or the other, when there are guys (Cutler is a perfect example) who plays like he can take over a game but fails at it more than you'd like.

It reminds me of Ben when the Steelers won their titles. He was the beneficiary of an elite defense and running game and some gave him the label of game manager or my favorite, "bus driver."

Yet in my view he is/was not a game manager. He is the antithesis of a game manager.

[Bmore Irish]

Re: Elite QB vs. Game Manager: A Disccussion

I've always thought of game manager as a style descriptor; more about how you play as opposed to what your skill level is. I think this whole discussion tends to reveal the differences in how people define "game manager" more than anything.

I will never view Flacco, Cutler, or Eli Manning as game managers, because they all are more than willing to take chances throwing the ball down field or into coverage. Sometimes it pays off, sometimes it doesn't, but that won't deter them. They will take chances to try and steal the big play that could be the difference.

I believe Matt Ryan was being referred to as captain check down" a lot in the past. That's just another way of calling someone a game manager. Alex Smith is the perfect example of this. That guy has talent and athletic ability, but he just won't take the risks.

Really, I view it as more of a sliding scale, with "gun slinger" being the other end of the spectrum. You've got Brett Favre, Trent Dilfer, and everything in between.

[wwharton]

Re: Elite QB vs. Game Manager: A Disccussion

I think the perfect example of a game manager would be Wilson. You can win some Super Bowls with him (Flacco too), but if you have to count on them to put up 3-5 TDs a game, forget it. P Manning(elite) on the other hand was more then capable of doing that.

Career-
Game Manager exampes-
r wilson
j flacco
T Romo
M Ryan
E Manning (just not consistent enough to rate higher)

In between manager/elite examples-
P Rivers
Ben Roth (this yr decides if he gets moved down for me)
A Luck (cleans up turn overs I'll put him elite)
D Bree's


Elite example-
Manning(maybe not anymore if he has lost as much strength as it seams he has)
A Rodgers
T Brady

lol, Flacco may have had the best post season ever, with stats better than Montana. I'd say they had to count on him and he came away with a ring and MVP trophy. As previously mentioned, his lack of consistency keeps him away from the elite conversation but he frequently puts the offense on his back... for better and worse.

I'd say Romo and Eli do it even more. In no way, shape or form should they be considered "game managers". This is why I have a problem with the way most of the world uses the term.

It reminds me of Ben when the Steelers won their titles. He was the beneficiary of an elite defense and running game and some gave him the label of game manager or my favorite, "bus driver."

Yet in my view he is/was not a game manager. He is the antithesis of a game manager.

This is an even better example than Cutler. He was considered the modern day Terry Bradshaw, but if you just watched him play you'd see he got sacked so much because he was doing everything he could to extend plays and take risks.

[BigDaddyHolmes]

Re: Elite QB vs. Game Manager: A Disccussion

lol, Flacco may have had the best post season ever, with stats better than Montana. I'd say they had to count on him and he came away with a ring and MVP trophy. As previously mentioned, his lack of consistency keeps him away from the elite conversation but he frequently puts the offense on his back... for better and worse.

I'd say Romo and Eli do it even more. In no way, shape or form should they be considered "game managers". This is why I have a problem with the way most of the world uses the term.


This is an even better example than Cutler. He was considered the modern day Terry Bradshaw, but if you just watched him play you'd see he got sacked so much because he was doing everything he could to extend plays and take risks.

Ya, everyone has a different idea of what a game manager is. To me its the next step up from, "don't cut it in the NFL" list of QB's. Basically QB's that are good enough to keep around long term, but aren't elite.

I didn't put anyone in near elite or elite that isn't consistent. But Flacco, Manning, Romo all show flashes of greatness, they just are very inconsistent.

[TripleCrown9]

Re: Elite QB vs. Game Manager: A Disccussion

Ya, everyone has a different idea of what a game manager is. To me its the next step up from, "don't cut it in the NFL" list of QB's. Basically QB's that are good enough to keep around long term, but aren't elite.

I didn't put anyone in near elite or elite that isn't consistent. But Flacco, Manning, Romo all show flashes of greatness, they just are very inconsistent.

So in your opinion Russell Wilson, Joe Flacco, Tony Romo, and Eli Manning are barely a step above "not an NFL quarterback"?

[larkyyyyy]

Re: Elite QB vs. Game Manager: A Disccussion

I pretty much see the label in quarterbacks that aren't very flashy and just get the job done without much swagger. But the label is stupid imo. An elite quarterback would be moreso a game manager than an average conservative quarterback.

[slickdtc]

Re: Elite QB vs. Game Manager: A Disccussion

QB labels are like music genres. Impossible to nail down to just one with a lot of crossover.

I liked Bmore's characterization regarding Matt Ryan. He manages it until he has to make a big throw -- we've seen him lead 2 minute or less offenses and drill a throw on the sideline to set up a winning FG. Put Alex Smith in that situation and he'll throw outside routes all day but won't ever have the balls to throw it past 10 yards.

That's when the best QB's earn their keep. When you NEED them to make the throws, and they either can't and don't, or do and succeed or fail. So those elite guys, you aren't sweating. But you give Eli or Rivers the chance, and it's 50/50 they'll make a spectacular throw or end the game with a pick.

I find Romo to be a curious case, a real hybrid. He was slinging it around, results be damned, early in his career but has really settled down the last 5 years. The big knock on him is the perceived lack of cool in the clutch, particularly the playoffs.

So yeah, I like the sliding scale. You've got your 3, maybe 4 QB's who you have unending faith in, then a whole crop of guys who can go either way week to week (and that even includes Rivers, Ben, who I regard as really good QB's but they're not automatic), then your guys who are hanging on in the right situations (Smith sticks out, maybe Hoyer, Cassel). Generally these guys are good backups who can keep you competitive/afloat for a stretch but who you don't really want to start 16 games.

[redsox4evur]

Re: Elite QB vs. Game Manager: A Disccussion

Big Ben is a great game manager...and is showing it against the Pats.

[kehlis]

Re: Elite QB vs. Game Manager: A Disccussion

Big Ben is a great game manager...and is showing it against the Pats.

This is the crap that is so insufferable.

Do you feel better now?

[BigDaddyHolmes]

Re: Elite QB vs. Game Manager: A Disccussion

So in your opinion Russell Wilson, Joe Flacco, Tony Romo, and Eli Manning are barely a step above "not an NFL quarterback"?

Yep, they are all qb's you can live with for a long time, or their entire carear, but they aren't at that elite level like Brady, Montana, Manning, Rogers, etc.

Lets face it, anything under Eli Manning, Romo, Flacco, etc is a qb that won't last long. Even these qb's have had times in the past where many have cried to replace them.

[superjames1992]

Re: Elite QB vs. Game Manager: A Disccussion

Regarding the OP and Trent Dilfer, you have to be really careful comparing raw statistics from past years with those of today as the game has inevitably changed towards being more friendly to the passing attack (due to rule changes and schemes).