Official Denver Broncos Thread

[Jonsco28]

Re: Official Denver Broncos Thread

There were a couple of series where they had third and short and Tebow threw a very low percentage pass. This is where I don't get what they are going. Third and short is a great time to have Tebow run out of the spread; pick up the first down and move the chains, keeping the defense off the field for a while. I agree...the screens and check-downs don't appear to be there.

I thought it was interesting that Tebow said ofter the game that he was trying to do things the way they have been teaching him. That's not going to work right now. He looks so uncomfortable. He needs to play his game and let the true QB mechanics develop over time. Tebow is more comfortable out of the gun...keep him in that 90% of the time. When they lined up in that tight formation, two back set, they were very unproductive.

I hope he shows some improvement next week. Either way...questions are being answered.

[Broncos86]

Re: Official Denver Broncos Thread

What game were you watching? It wasn't a spread offense at all.
Line up with a 6 OL, 1 TE, 1 FB and 1 RB look and run the ball on 1st down, no gain. Run on 2nd down for 2 yards, 3rd and 8. Then ask Tebow to throw a ball against a very good front four blitzing with long developing routes.
Where were the 3 WR plus 1 TE looks with quick slants, bubble screens, etc?

That said, Tebow still is looking atrocious. He actually has regressed IMO from last year, and I still think McCoy needs to go.
Also, we need to move Franklin to G and get a new RT. Both are doing terrible pass blocking and I don't know how you can argue anything but that. On the fumble returned for a TD, Beadles completely whiffed on his block and Frankling got abused on his side, leaving two guys in split seconds on Tebow. Orton would've shat the bed on that play.

On the fumble for a TD, had Tebow not taken 30 minutes to wind up to throw the ball, he wouldn't have been stripped. If Tebow had proper pocket aswareness and could shuffle more and panic-sprint less, he'd have more success.

Tebow's problem is that he looks either down the right side, or deep. He had Decker and Royal open on many plays, but kept trying to go for deeper routes. The plays called were fine, Tebow just isn't looking for those routes. And on the routes designed for quick hits, he was constantly throwing behind.

In the end, we're both saying the same thing: Tebow is horrible.

[jth1331]

Re: Official Denver Broncos Thread

On the fumble for a TD, had Tebow not taken 30 minutes to wind up to throw the ball, he wouldn't have been stripped. If Tebow had proper pocket aswareness and could shuffle more and panic-sprint less, he'd have more success.

Tebow's problem is that he looks either down the right side, or deep. He had Decker and Royal open on many plays, but kept trying to go for deeper routes. The plays called were fine, Tebow just isn't looking for those routes. And on the routes designed for quick hits, he was constantly throwing behind.

In the end, we're both saying the same thing: Tebow is horrible.

Maybe Tebow was assuming Franklin could block his guy for more than 1 second and Beadles not let his guy go right on through for a free hit?

[Broncos86]

Re: Official Denver Broncos Thread

Maybe Tebow was assuming Franklin could block his guy for more than 1 second and Beadles not let his guy go right on through for a free hit?

That's true. On that play, the entire line essentially collapsed. But Tebow's problem, on that play, is that he decides to throw off his back foot with guys in his face. Had he better pocket awareness, he could've simply moved up in the pocket to his right (there was plenty of space and Tebow was in shotgun) and avoided the whole thing. But to back peddle and try to wind up to throw was a big mistake.

It's not just Tebow's fault, and it's not just the offensive line's fault. They do complement each other. But like I said, this isn't a bad line. They're very young, and they're getting better. But, when you have a QB like Tebow in the pocket, mistakes get magnified. Having a QB like Rodgers in the backfield wipes out those errors because of his pocket presence and ability to get rid of the ball.

Tebow and the O-Line are going to face more blitzes as well, knowing that Tebow isn't going to feel very comfortable in getting rid of the ball quickly. This is really going to put a LOT on the offensive line. Tebow can help himself and the O-Line by recognizing blitzes and properly hitting an outlet receiver.

Until Tim Tebow can properly make check-downs and beat blitzes with quick, accurate throws, the Broncos offense is going to face increased blitzing. The offensive line is going to really get a trial-by-fire. They're young kids, but they have a wealth of talent. Offensive line and cornerback are two of the hardest positions to play as a rookie. Give these kids some time to gel, and give them some benefit when it comes to what the QB is doing in the pocket.

The best short-term cure for the Broncos is the running game. If Tebow can keep the running game valid (by avoiding 3 and outs and hitting throws when he needs to), then defenses won't be able to blitz as effectively. The running game allows the offensive line to attack, and forces defenses to think twice about blitzing. As soon as we get into a spread offense (AHEM), defenses get to blitz the offense without mercy. This is why it's so important that Tebow learn to operate effectively in the pocket and not rely on shotgun all the time. If Tebow is going to operate from the gun, he needs to read those blitzes and understand where his check-down is and quickly hit it.

[letsgopens66]

Re: Official Denver Broncos Thread

I don't know about you guys, but I want Dont'a Hightower on the Denver Broncos. Just watching this LSU/Bama game, he really looks like an intimidating force on the defense. He almost seems like a Suh out there.

Now don't get me wrong I know Suh is amazing and Hightower isn't anywhere near on his level defensively. However, a Hightower on the Denver defense really would give us an intimidating, physical presence.

Thoughts? Am I just crazy?

[kehlis]

Re: Official Denver Broncos Thread

I don't know about you guys, but I want Dont'a Hightower on the Denver Broncos. Just watching this LSU/Bama game, he really looks like an intimidating force on the defense. He almost seems like a Suh out there.

Now don't get me wrong I know Suh is amazing and Hightower isn't anywhere near on his level defensively. However, a Hightower on the Denver defense really would give us an intimidating, physical presence.

Thoughts? Am I just crazy?

Not crazy, but I'm pretty sure the first round pick will be a QB and I doubt he will fall to the second round.

[letsgopens66]

Re: Official Denver Broncos Thread

Not crazy, but I'm pretty sure the first round pick will be a QB and I doubt he will fall to the second round.

Fair enough. I haven't been keeping up with Matt Barkley this year. Does he look like he's the definite no. 2 behind Luck?

It's a bummer. I really wish their was an absolute dominating defensive player in the draft this year like Suh.

[Jonsco28]

Re: Official Denver Broncos Thread

Woody Paige: History says it's too early to judge Tebow as a failure

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By Woody Paige
The Denver Post

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Posted: 11/06/2011 01:00:00 AM MST

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The Broncos' young quarterback, 2-2 as an erratic starter, looked Quasimodo ugly in his fifth game.

In the first half of a blowout defeat, he completed only four passes, was sacked and harassed repeatedly by eight men in the box and played terrible as the Broncos failed to score a touchdown, and the NFC opponent got 24 points. The outcome was no longer in doubt when his pass was intercepted and returned for a touchdown.

While witnessing the debacle at the stadium, I wondered if I was absolutely wrong for supporting the acclaimed quarterback I had first seen play so skillfully in college.

Afterward, he was criticized in Denver and condemned nationally. The quarterback's performance was described as comical, amateurish and hopeless, and some in the media believed he was a monumental faux pas, or faux passer, as a first-round pick.

The Broncos coach even doubted the quarterback — saying privately that he was raw, couldn't read defenses, didn't throw accurately enough and scrambled too often.

However, the quarterback would go on to play in five Super Bowls, winning two, and was selected to the Pro Football Hall of Fame.

John Elway.

More quarterbacks through their first five starts:

ESPN analyst Trent Dilfer, 1-4 record, two touchdowns, nine interceptions, would be the QB on Ravens' Super Bowl-winning team.
Southern football icon and No. 2 pick overall, Archie Manning, 2-2-1, 40-of-86 passing, five touchdowns, five interceptions, 10.9 rating in one game as Saints rookie, father of two NFL quarterbacks.

The Colts' (injured) Peyton Manning, No. 1 pick, 1-4, four touchdowns, 12 interceptions, would win one Super Bowl.

The Giants' Eli Manning, No. 1 pick (traded from Chargers following draft), 0-5, three touchdowns, seven interceptions, would win one Super Bowl.

The Packers' Aaron Rodgers, 2-3 as starter, finally, in fourth season, nine touchdowns, four interceptions, would win one Super Bowl.

Fox analyst Terry Bradshaw, 2-3, one touchdown, eight interceptions, 41-of-100 passing, would win four Super Bowls, Hall of Famer.

ESPN commentator Steve Young, 1-4 with Tampa Bay, three touchdowns, eight interceptions, would be 49ers' starting quarterback on one Super Bowl-winning team, Hall of Famer.

Fox analyst Troy Aikman, 0-5, three touchdowns, eight interceptions, won three Super Bowls with Cowboys, Hall of Famer.

Joe Montana, 1-4, six touchdowns, four interceptions, won four Super Bowls with 49ers, Hall of Famer.

Brett Favre, 2-3, six touchdowns, two interceptions, won one Super Bowl with Packers.

Sam Bradford, No. 1 pick overall in 2010 by Rams, 2-3, six touchdowns, eight interceptions, lost his fifth start 44-6.

Colt McCoy, tied with Boise State's Kellen Moore heading into Saturday night for most victories as a quarterback in FBS, drafted in third round last year, current Browns starter, 2-3, three touchdowns, three interceptions.

Ryan Fitzpatrick, current Bills starter who just signed a six-year, $59 million contract extension, 0-5, two touchdowns, 10 interceptions with Rams, then Bengals.

Michael Vick, current Eagles starter, 2-3, five touchdowns, one interception with Falcons.

Johnny Unitas, 3-2 as a starter in 1956 after taking over as Baltimore starter, threw interception for touchdown on first series, fumbled ball away on first play of second series, nine touchdowns, 10 interceptions with 3-4 record for season, won two NFL championships, Hall of Famer.

Cam Newton, No. 1 overall pick, 2011, current Panthers starter, 1-4 in first five games, seven touchdowns, six interceptions.

Then, there is: Tim Tebow, 2-3 as Broncos starter, seven touchdowns, four interceptions.

In five starts, Tebow has passed for 984 yards, rushed for 321 yards and completed 48.3 percent of his passes. In comparison, Elway (knocked out of his first game, replaced in the second half of his fifth game) passed for 420 yards, rushed for 41 yards, completed 45.8 percent and was 2-3 with one touchdown, five interceptions.

In his book for youngsters, the "Comeback Kid" would write that "TV commentators asked: 'Is Elway the $5 million mistake?' "

Elway was the Broncos' starter for the next 15 years — and had won more regular-season games than any other quarterback when he retired.
Elway also played poorly in his sixth start. He was 11-of-31 with no touchdowns and an interception in a loss . . . to the Raiders in Los Angeles.

The Broncos did not give up on Elway then? The Broncos must not give up on Tebow now.

No matter what happens in Oakland against the Raiders today, Tebow has to start the rest of the season so he can be judged properly. John Elway, sacked nine times in the first half by the Bears in his fifth start, and those other quarterbacks who started rather badly certainly should agree.

[Broncos86]

Re: Official Denver Broncos Thread

What I saw from Tim Tebow today was that he can only find receivers when they're so open that you'd have to be blind to miss them. His best asset is still his legs. He's still a better runner than a passer. We need to see Tebow make throws into tighter spaces.

I don't disagree that we need to see more of Tim Tebow. Today's game told us almost nothing about Tim Tebow in terms of how he's progressing. What it DID tell us is that John Fox still doesn't trust Tebow to put the game in his hands (just his legs). When we tied the game, what did John Fox do? Nothing but runs. Tebow up the middle twice.

Eddie Royal, Champ Bailey, and Willis McGahee helped take the pressure off of Tebow in a big way. With those big plays, Tebow wasn't required as a passer. He only need to play college QB and make capable option reads (something Tebow certainly knows well). I hope Tim Tebow takes those guys out to lunch, because they just bought Tebow some more time as a starter.

[Sportsforever]

Re: Official Denver Broncos Thread

What I saw from Tim Tebow today was that he can only find receivers when they're so open that you'd have to be blind to miss them. His best asset is still his legs. He's still a better runner than a passer. We need to see Tebow make throws into tighter spaces.

I don't disagree that we need to see more of Tim Tebow. Today's game told us almost nothing about Tim Tebow in terms of how he's progressing. What it DID tell us is that John Fox still doesn't trust Tebow to put the game in his hands (just his legs). When we tied the game, what did John Fox do? Nothing but runs. Tebow up the middle twice.

Eddie Royal, Champ Bailey, and Willis McGahee helped take the pressure off of Tebow in a big way. With those big plays, Tebow wasn't required as a passer. He only need to play college QB and make capable option reads (something Tebow certainly knows well). I hope Tim Tebow takes those guys out to lunch, because they just bought Tebow some more time as a starter.

While I agree with most of your assessment, I don't see how you can't think he's improving as a passer. I saw him make a few throws today in tight spaces/on the run that he wasn't making a few weeks ago. That throw on 1st and 20 for 18 yards was perfect and the completion to Decker on 3rd and 12 was a thing of beauty too.

Yes, his legs are his best asset (and probably always will be), but I am seeing incremental improvements in his passing ability. I do wish Fox would just run an NFL offense and see what happens...oh well.

[av7]

Re: Official Denver Broncos Thread

Breakdown between the 2 seasons so far.

2010, Studesville/McCoy
Game 1: 50%, 8.6 Y/A
Game 2: 55%, 10.6 Y/A
Game 3: 44%, 5.7 Y/A
6 sacks.
4 TDs, 3 Int // 3 rush TDs in the starts
217 Yds/G average

2011, Fox/McCoy
Game 1: 40%, 7.9 Y/A
Game 2: 48%, 6.0 Y/A
Game 3: 46%, 4.4 Y/A
Game 4: 47%, 5.9 Y/A
15 sacks.
5 TDs, 1 Int // 0 rushing TDs in starts
152 Yds/G average

[Broncos86]

Re: Official Denver Broncos Thread

Sportsforever, the VAST majority of Tebow's throws were to receivers who had coverage blown on them. He need merely hit a general area (and not throw the ball out of bounds) in order to make the completion. The throw to Decker was a very nice throw. But again, Decker was WIDE open. And while he hit that one throw on the run, he absolutely botched quite a few others.

Tebow hitting a wide receiver where he should is still the exception. Moreover, he's still largely only seeing receivers who essentially have no coverage. He's still holding onto the ball far too long, he's still not hitting checkdowns.

When a QB rushes for over a 100 yards in a game, barely throws for much more, there's little evidence to say he has improved. The game plan was still vastly from shotgun. The game plan was still largely option runs. In 1.5 years in the NFL, he still can't play a game largely from under center.

The past two weeks, KOA and other venues have been talking about Coach Fox tailoring a game to meet Tebow's "skill set." What that means is the Denver Broncos turning into a college offense to accomodate Tebow's apparent lack of progress in learning a pro style offense. And all of the above doesn't even take into account the fact that every Tebow run puts him at risk to get knocked out of the game.

When I see the following from Tim Tebow, I'll proclaim improvement:

1) Hitting players in stride in coverage
2) Identifying and hitting checkdowns when there's pressure
3) Playing from under center
4) No more Tebow runs. If Tebow is involved, it's a pass.
5) Quicker releases, less holding onto the ball.

When I see the above, I'll say he's improving. That means he's identifying blitzes and coverages. It means he's able to throw the ball, with accuracy, into tighter areas. It means he's quickly making these reads and getting the ball out of his hands. Lastly, it means his arm is now a bigger threat than his legs, which is not the case right now.

[Sportsforever]

Re: Official Denver Broncos Thread

I think people have very selective memories on stuff. Please watch this video (Elways 5th start in the league) and tell me how he looks any better than Tebow at this point?

http://youtu.be/ENiQXQwG53M

http://youtu.be/A-ZjZyMSudw

If it was 2011 instead of 1983 people would have been screaming he's a bust!

[Jonsco28]

Re: Official Denver Broncos Thread

When I see the following from Tim Tebow, I'll proclaim improvement:

1) Hitting players in stride in coverage
2) Identifying and hitting checkdowns when there's pressure
3) Playing from under center
4) No more Tebow runs. If Tebow is involved, it's a pass.
5) Quicker releases, less holding onto the ball.

I agree with 1,2, and 5, but not 3 and 4. Why are you wanting to pigeon-hole Tebow into something he is not? The Broncos did yesterday what they need to do to take advantage of Tebow's skillsets. Why does he have to be a conventional QB in every manner right now to be deemed a success or failure. Let him be who is.

[Broncos86]

Re: Official Denver Broncos Thread

I agree with 1,2, and 5, but not 3 and 4. Why are you wanting to pigeon-hole Tebow into something he is not? The Broncos did yesterday what they need to do to take advantage of Tebow's skillsets. Why does he have to be a conventional QB in every manner right now to be deemed a success or failure. Let him be who is.

Because if Tim Tebow is going to last in the NFL and be a successful QB, he MUST MUST MUST transition from that style into more of a passer. Otherwise, he'll never develop as a true passer, and he'll end up getting crushed by someone like Ray Lewis who will take our multimillion dollar QB and put him on the sideline. Then what? Now we have our back up in the game, and our ENTIRE game plan must be altered to fit an entirely different style of QB.

He HAS to get away from being a QB you design the read-option for. You want to let Tebow be what he is now? Then don't expect him to last in the NFL. Those plays are stop-gap plays designed to fill the gap for Tebow's lack of passing. They work every so often, like the game we saw on Sunday. Better teams will be waiting and watching, daring Tim Tebow to beat them with his arm.

If Tim Tebow wants to be a starting NFL QB, he has to make the transition. Don't forget, Elway himself said Tebow has to be successful from the pocket if he wants to progress. If his greatest asset remains his legs, Tebow will find himself without a football team.