NHL Developer Insights: NHL 2K10 Improved AI

[Eddie1967]

Re: NHL Developer Insights: NHL 2K10 Improved AI

Eddie and Scott, do you guys play online at all?

Oh Yeah!

[Scottdau]

Re: NHL Developer Insights: NHL 2K10 Improved AI

I am going to. I am just really busy with this masters and teaching credential, but next month it will slow for me.

[slickdtc]

Re: NHL Developer Insights: NHL 2K10 Improved AI

I agree with this... I want better AI and gameplay before anything else...If they could get that game with higher levels or a good sliderset, I am o.k with a bland hockey game... well not bland but you know what I mean... IMO 2k5 football was going for a all around game..Game was FAR from perfect but I had a good feeling about that game and they had a good base to work out of.. Then they could've tackled the AI and gameplay or was on their way to anyways.. With Hockey or anygame though, I think gameplay and AI should be first on anyones list.

Indeed, I hope that ends up being the case. Like I said, I can deal with another year of bad commentary if the gameplay is finally back on track. Its similar to where I think NHL10 is at, they spent alot of time getting the rest of the gameplay there, board play, goalies, passing etc. So next year they can focus on blowing out the presentation. It very well could be that 2k was able to do that this year. If nothing else, their arena's alone blow EA's out of the water.

Whenever I think of gameplay first, then presentation second, I think of NHL 2k3. Though I don't own the game anymore, my memory says that the presentation was actually serviceable. They had some ESPN overlays, a pregame introduction (they even said the player names, if I recall correctly), and I can remember the goal scoring cut scene (I think they were real time, actually). 2k3 is positively the benchmark for me for NHL games. I really think 2k10 is going to get as close to 2k3 as we've seen so far for a number of reasons. For one, it's VC making the game. So while it's not Treyarch, VC was teamed with Treyarch in producing that game (while Kush came from out of nowhere for the 2k4-2k8 games) and I think they've learned something from that. And again, the 2k series is the ugly stepchild and can't rest on its laurels like they were in 2k3 making their debut on all the systems and really trying to establish themselves. When the series had that success, I think they shifted to being complacent and just making the game look good instead of really refining the great core gameplay mechanics they had.

I really do think we're in for something good this year. I think the core gameplay for 2k10 is going to be some of the best playing hockey we've had in this series. But it's still going to be 2k hockey, so if you just don't like that feel, you're not going to like this release anymore then the previous ones. That's just the vibe I'm getting from all this prerelease stuff. As always, it'll come down to sitting down and playing the game. I'd love to see 2khockey.net get a hands-on opportunity with the game because we know WAZ & Co know what that 2k2/2k3 era felt like and I'd really trust their opinion if they said it's back to those roots.

We'll see in mid-September. I haven't been this amped for a release date, regardless of sport, in a longggg time.

[Money99]

Re: NHL Developer Insights: NHL 2K10 Improved AI

Great post slick. Especially the comments on the feel of 2K hockey compared to EA.

EA has a great advantage in that, for the most part, all of their hockey games have 'felt' the same since 92. The graphics, AI, etc have all been improved but the game still looks the same to some degree from years back.
That's not a bash on EA by any means, but they've been able to build a comfort level with their consumers because of it.

It's for that exact reason why I took me quite a while to enjoy 2K2. It moved, looked and played so different than any other hockey game I've ever seen.
I hated it at first to be honest. But as I dug deeper, I started to appreciate the nuances of the game.
And then when 2K3 came out I was in heaven. Absolute hockey heaven.

I really hope that 2K can return to that level of hockey. Where the AI is slick and makes the user pay for mistakes. Where we won't feel cheated with artificial CPU boosts or cheats.
And I hope that if 2K10 really is a great game, that more of the hockey community gives it a chance.
I raved about 2K3 to all my friends and when they finally got down to playing it, they loved it. In fact, it was the only thing we played when the guys came over.

[RealmK]

Re: NHL Developer Insights: NHL 2K10 Improved AI

Fantastic post slick, while I do agree there is a different "feel" so to speak between the two, I also think alot of that has always had to do with levels of polish on the whole. The code base within 2k3 was pretty much completely fundamentally sound on pretty much every facet when it came to the gameplay itself with the exception of goaltenders being too effective.

From the CPU AI playing positionally sound on defense, cutting off passing lanes, actively clogging the neutral zone and standing up at the blue line, to the CPU offensive AI being able to effectively dump and chase and forecheck and cycle. The game felt like real hockey, it played like real hockey and while the presentation wasn't the greatest ever, it was serviceable with ESPN overlays, compitant play by play that had a hockey broadcast vibe and for anyone who truly loves the sport, it was a dream come true to be able to actually play real hockey on a console.

Once the developer switch was made not only with Sega selling Visual Concepts and in turn their sports line since they were getting out of the hardware side of the business to Take Two, but Kush being brought in to take over for the on loan from Activision, Treyarch things slowly started to change. While the graphics and presentation were improved for 2k4 and 2k5 (2k5 especially) the team started to put less of a focus on making sure the AI stayed on top of its game each iteration and more on a focus on back of the box type of bullet points, like the sky box, pond hockey, crease controls and the like and pretty much rested on their laurels until EA stood up and took notice.

It didn't help with the first few next gen versions pretty much being just last gen ports with a gimick or two added for good measure. (cinemotion, play off beards, zamboni racing etc) They had really gotten away from what made the early versions of NHL2k the great games that they were, and that was making a great simulation game of the actual sport.

I know that the guys they've picked up to work for them since remember those versions, Cups, Shadow, Tris and the like, and I really hope they've gone back to basics with the gameplay to bring it back to the calibre that NHL2k3-2k5 was.

Though I have to be honest in that the way they have marketed the game so far with the exception of these dev insights wasn't really a smart way to go about winning back guys that have jumped ship. Waiting so long to start pumping out info not only casts seeds of doubt (considering how bad 2k9 was) but with nothing to go on for so long it gave EA total attention from E3 til the last week or so. Also like I've said, I think it would go a very long way if someone from the dev team, Cups or Shadow or what not could get us some media of the game on sim sliders with a higher difficulty level and really demonstrate how the game plays to the hardcore sim player. I'd love to pick it up day one along with NHL10, but I need to see first hand that its actually capable of playing a sim game of hockey with adaquate AI, and that the longstanding issues like franchise freezes and the like have indeed been taken care of.

[Scottdau]

Re: NHL Developer Insights: NHL 2K10 Improved AI

Great post Realm.

[daflyboys]

Re: NHL Developer Insights: NHL 2K10 Improved AI

Whenever I think of gameplay first, then presentation second, I think of NHL 2k3. Though I don't own the game anymore, my memory says that the presentation was actually serviceable. They had some ESPN overlays, a pregame introduction (they even said the player names, if I recall correctly), and I can remember the goal scoring cut scene (I think they were real time, actually). 2k3 is positively the benchmark for me for NHL games.

It has held up decently for a last gen game. I recently played and the AI is still remarkable. Here's a compiliation I made a while ago from replays I happened to save (I think there's a 2K4 replay or two that snuck in). I also have a seperate couple of vids that didn't make this montage that I can post as well if ne1 is interested:

<object width="640" height="505"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/lnuAOUuFVKs&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/lnuAOUuFVKs&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="505"></embed></object>

[RealmK]

Re: NHL Developer Insights: NHL 2K10 Improved AI

It has held up decently for a last gen game. I recently played and the AI is still remarkable. Here's a compiliation I made a while ago from replays I happened to save (I think there's a 2K4 replay or two that snuck in). I also have a seperate couple of vids that didn't make this montage that I can post as well if ne1 is interested:

<object width="640" height="505"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/lnuAOUuFVKs&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/lnuAOUuFVKs&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="505"></embed></object>

Thanks for posting this flyboy, brings back some great memories.

[onlybygrace]

Re: NHL Developer Insights: NHL 2K10 Improved AI

Hey Flyboys...what goalie edits were done to come up with that stuff???

I still have my copy of 2k3 and would like to mess with it sometime.

[daflyboys]

Re: NHL Developer Insights: NHL 2K10 Improved AI

Hey Flyboys...what goalie edits were done to come up with that stuff???

I still have my copy of 2k3 and would like to mess with it sometime.

I don't remember any longer. Grab the latest season roster I had over at 2khockey.net and the editor I uploaded here and take a look. I think I recall that I reduced the size of the goalies a bit too. Here's the only other vid I have. The AI is ridiculous....

<object width="640" height="505"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/vCCwhgBBntc&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/vCCwhgBBntc&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="505"></embed></object>

[onlybygrace]

Re: NHL Developer Insights: NHL 2K10 Improved AI

Wow...

Good stuff. Maybe some day I'll resort to that game.

There was no backwards skating on D that year, right???

[Money99]

Re: NHL Developer Insights: NHL 2K10 Improved AI

What was very strange was the fact that the goalies were perfect in the PS2 version. No edits needed whatsoever.
When I sold my PS2 for an Xbox and played 2K3, I was amazed at the difference.

[daflyboys]

Re: NHL Developer Insights: NHL 2K10 Improved AI

Wow...

Good stuff. Maybe some day I'll resort to that game.

There was no backwards skating on D that year, right???

Pretty sure not, they just switched when they needed to have good positioning.... unlike now when you can do it whenever on O or D.... even in the most unnatural moments.... just ask cheesers!

[slickdtc]

Re: NHL Developer Insights: NHL 2K10 Improved AI

Yeah, no backwards skating then. It was automatic. Might've been better, I remember it being less clunky. We just WANTED the control of backwards skating, though we may have never actually needed it, especially since it was so badly implemented.

I have to admit, I get on the 360/PS3 versions of NHL games for really not improving all that much from that era. But they have definitely made leaps and bounds in the animations and (of course) graphics department. There was a lot of awkwardness in 2k3, to be sure. I think we can probably judge it more objectively now though, because it's old so the graphics aren't what matters anymore. But I hear so many complaints about the current games having bad player models, ugly goalies, etc. We should revisit some of these more current games, throw out any problems we had with graphics (because it'll be outdated and we won't care), and see where we stand. We may just find some beauty beneath the ugly. Though the people around here mostly care about the core gameplay and not the graphics anyway.

Awesome 2k3 videos, Daflyboys. I really do have to pick it back up. I've tried. Once a walk-in, but a kid was manning the counter and couldn't find it (online said it was in stock though). The other time I called in and they had me on hold for 20 minutes before I just accepted that they weren't going to talk to me and just hung up. GameStop, folks.

It didn't help with the first few next gen versions pretty much being just last gen ports with a gimick or two added for good measure. (cinemotion, play off beards, zamboni racing etc) They had really gotten away from what made the early versions of NHL2k the great games that they were, and that was making a great simulation game of the actual sport.

Definitely. There's no doubt they tried to get more fans by having these stupid casual things that eventually end up out of the game in a year or two. If there's one good sign, it's that they aren't pushing playoff beard/zamboni/cinemotion type things this year. I think that's a very telling sign. Instead we're seeing stick lifts (a nice bullet point feature but directly releated to gameplay), retooled AI, and strategies that actually work. We're getting meat and potatoes stuff instead of all that fancy BS that really doesn't attract any casual gamers and only turns off the hardcore gamers.

But like I said before, the 2k hockey feel will still remain. A lot will change, but they can't make a completely new game in one year. So I'm not going in expecting a completely different game; a game that has a lot of improvements, a lot of tweaks though is what I'm going to be looking to. And honestly, I think that will be more then enough. I've played this series long enough to like that core 2k hockey feel so if they got rid of that, I think I might actually be a bit peeved.

[Scottdau]

Re: NHL Developer Insights: NHL 2K10 Improved AI

Not me I like graphics just as much as game play. I am a very superfical person.