Is Tiger The Most Intimidating, Imposing and Frightening Figure Ever in Sports?

[Dallasin2K3]

Re: Is Tiger The Most Intimidating, Imposing and Frightening Figure Ever in Sports?

I can't see how a golfer could be considered the most intimidating figure in sports.

My .02, but it seems like many people who have never played golf seriously/competitively (99.5% of golfers) would have a tough time understanding.

There are few things more intimidating than the 18th tee in a playoff against a great player, or tied on the final hole in matchplay. Players that have ever played for a lot of money probably understand better. A win or loss, and in the pros case - tens of thousands of dollars - is decided in golf much more rapidly than in any other sport. That second and a half that is your swing can make or break you. All other sports pale in comparison, given the length of a possession or play. And in golf's case, you don't get three strikes. One shot, one swing, that's all you've got. When you are up against Tiger, if you let up so much as a HAIR, you are done for. There is zero margin for error. I would think that is pretty rare in sports.

Perhaps the best thing to do is to listen to what the other PGA pros say about Tiger. There's no question - that's intimidation.

[pk500]

Re: Is Tiger The Most Intimidating, Imposing and Frightening Figure Ever in Sports?

Tiger Woods isn't going to embarass you on the golf course.

Some of you guys are mystifying.

Try this scenario: Phil Mickelson and Tiger Woods are tied for the lead in The Masters with nine holes to go in the final round. They're paired together after being the top two golfers after three rounds.

In the last nine holes, Tiger goes -5 and Phil goes even par. Tiger wins by five strokes.

You're trying to tell me Phil wouldn't be embarrassed? Are you sh*tting me? But I guess in this new world of "representin' and dissin'," Tiger wouldn't be considered to have embarrassed Phil because he didn't woof in his face or point his club at Phil derisively and do a birdie dance, huh?

Give me a f*cking break.

Even if it's not match play, it's often mano a mano on the golf course, especially if the pairing involved is dueling for the lead. Christ, I know that, and I don't even golf!

Take care,
PK

[SPTO]

Re: Is Tiger The Most Intimidating, Imposing and Frightening Figure Ever in Sports?

I have to think so.

Let's face it, if Tiger's got the lead or is in contention on Sundays then every single competitor folds up like a cheap suitcase. Most of this is mental IMO.

[pietasterp]

Re: Is Tiger The Most Intimidating, Imposing and Frightening Figure Ever in Sports?

I have to think so.

Let's face it, if Tiger's got the lead or is in contention on Sundays then every single competitor folds up like a cheap suitcase. Most of this is mental IMO.

Exactly...Kind of crappy, really, because the fact that no one has the cajones to sack up when Tiger is charging makes golf that much more uninteresting to me, only because we never see Tiger vs. someone in a true duel down the stretch. And even if you do, you KNOW Tiger's going to win. It's all mental, and no one has the mental fortitude of Tiger on tour right now.

[ehh]

Re: Is Tiger The Most Intimidating, Imposing and Frightening Figure Ever in Sports?

Some of you guys are mystifying.

Try this scenario: Phil Mickelson and Tiger Woods are tied for the lead in The Masters with nine holes to go in the final round. They're paired together after being the top two golfers after three rounds.

In the last nine holes, Tiger goes -5 and Phil goes even par. Tiger wins by five strokes.

You're trying to tell me Phil wouldn't be embarrassed? Are you sh*tting me? But I guess in this new world of "representin' and dissin'," Tiger wouldn't be considered to have embarrassed Phil because he didn't woof in his face or point his club at Phil derisively and do a birdie dance, huh?

Give me a f*cking break.

Even if it's not match play, it's often mano a mano on the golf course, especially if the pairing involved is dueling for the lead. Christ, I know that, and I don't even golf!

Take care,
PK

What the hell?

There's a huge difference in the scenario you just described and what I was talking about. In your scenario Phil embarassed himself. What the hell Tiger have to do with it?

Take Phil's collapse on the last three holes at Winged Foot, you think another golfer had a hand in that choke?

Gimme a ****in break. Not a chance. Top-tier professional athletes are so *** **** mentally tough, I don't care what the situation is, Phil isn't going to be intimidated by Tiger that much that he shoots five strokes worse. Not a chance.

My .02, but it seems like many people who have never played golf seriously/competitively (99.5% of golfers) would have a tough time understanding.

There are few things more intimidating than the 18th tee in a playoff against a great player, or tied on the final hole in matchplay. Players that have ever played for a lot of money probably understand better. A win or loss, and in the pros case - tens of thousands of dollars - is decided in golf much more rapidly than in any other sport. That second and a half that is your swing can make or break you. All other sports pale in comparison, given the length of a possession or play. And in golf's case, you don't get three strikes. One shot, one swing, that's all you've got. When you are up against Tiger, if you let up so much as a HAIR, you are done for. There is zero margin for error. I would think that is pretty rare in sports.

Perhaps the best thing to do is to listen to what the other PGA pros say about Tiger. There's no question - that's intimidation.

My .02 is that people who have never had to guard a 6'10" 250 lbs freak of an athlete on the low block, in a bandbox gym in the middle of a ghetto, packed to the rafters, w. the smell of weed everywhere, and every single person in the gym screaming and yelling and praying you get dunked on so they can laugh at you for the rest of the night, and for every other time in the future that you play in that gym - do not know how intimidating that can be.

That, comparing to a golfer beating me by two strokes on the final couple holes? I'm not saying that isn't an imitimidating situation, but they just don't compare, IMO.

I guess trying to compare it to basketball, it'd be like playing HORSE against Reggie Miller for $1 million dollars. Would I rather lose to him playing HORSE, or have him score 50 on me during a game, dunk on me, drill 3's in my face, etc?

I understand what you're saying about only having one attempt (one swing) with no room for error, but the ball is lying there on a tee for you. It's not coming at you 95 MPH with movement. You get three strikes in baseball because it's that much harder to hit a baseball than it is to hit a golf ball. I'm not saying it's easy to hit a golf ball, but it's definitely easier than hitting a baseball, IMO.

As for the money arguement (riding on the final shot or similar situation), I feel you'd be more intimidated by the actual situation, not the golfer you're playing against. Hell, half the time the leader and 2nd place golfer coming down the back 9 on Sunday aren't even in the same pairing. Is a golfer playing a hole ahead of Tiger Woods going to be incredibly intimidated by him? Hell, he really can't because he doesn't know what Woods is going to do, or what someone else is going to do.

I feel that it's more pressure than intimidation. I just can't fathom some one missing an easy putt because Tiger Woods is standing on the same green - if someone does, they are extremely mentally soft. If I'm shooting two free throws with :01 on the clock and down by two, am I more likely to miss the free throws because I feel the pressure or because I'm intimidated that Michael Jordan is lined up on the block ready to box someone out?

Seems more like pressure to me.


Oooooh I love good debates.

[pk500]

Re: Is Tiger The Most Intimidating, Imposing and Frightening Figure Ever in Sports?

My .02 is that people who have never had to guard a 6'10" 250 lbs freak of an athlete on the low block, in a bandbox gym in the middle of a ghetto, packed to the rafters, w. the smell of weed everywhere, and every single person in the gym screaming and yelling and praying you get dunked on so they can laugh at you for the rest of the night, and for every other time in the future that you play in that gym - do not know how intimidating that can be.

You're comparing streetball to a golf tournament watched by thousands in person and millions worldwide? You say it's more pressure to guard a big guy in a ghetto gym than choking while playing with Tiger Woods in front of a worldwide audience?

Wow. They absolutely compare. Because if that 6-10 guy dunks on you, big f*cking deal. About 20 people will laugh at you every time you go to the gym.

If Phil collapses due to pressure from playing with Tiger, and how can it not be that pressure, then the entire world knows about it.

I guess trying to compare it to basketball, it'd be like playing HORSE against Reggie Miller for $1 million dollars. Would I rather lose to him playing HORSE, or have him score 50 on me during a game, dunk on me, drill 3's in my face, etc?

What's the difference? You would feel intimidated, either way, because Miller was dominant in his day. Just like you would feel intimidated on the back nine of the final round of a major competing against Tiger because of his record, whether he was in your twosome or not. He's out there.

For example, if there was a serial killer loose in your neighborhood, would you have to see him eye to eye to feel intimidated and scared? Tiger is the serial killer of sport: You don't have to play in his twosome to be scared of him on the course.

As for the money arguement (riding on the final shot or similar situation), I feel you'd be more intimidated by the actual situation, not the golfer you're playing against.

Trust me, if you knew the other contender was a guy who NEVER has lost the lead or a share of the lead entering the final round of a major, you'd grip the putter just a touch tighter whether it was a 40-foot putt or a 3-foot gimme.

You absolutely know what Woods is going to do in that situation: He's going to make perfect golf shots and probably win. He's 12-0 in that situation.

Finally, your constant references to basketball infer to me that you consider basketball more of a sport than golf, which clearly colors your debate. Do you think a golfer can't be intimidating because it's golf and not a contact, in-your-grill sport?

Take care,
PK

[ehh]

Re: Is Tiger The Most Intimidating, Imposing and Frightening Figure Ever in Sports?

Finally, your constant references to basketball infer to me that you consider basketball more of a sport than golf, which clearly colors your debate. Do you think a golfer can't be intimidating because it's golf and not a contact, in-your-grill sport?

Take care,
PK

Absolutely. Golf is a game, basketball is a sport.

And I maintain, a golfer is not intimidating.

Trust me, if you knew the other contender was a guy who NEVER has lost the lead or a share of the lead entering the final round of a major, you'd grip the putter just a touch tighter whether it was a 40-foot putt or a 3-foot gimme.

You absolutely know what Woods is going to do in that situation: He's going to make perfect golf shots and probably win. He's 12-0 in that situation.

That's what I disagree on. You can't know, no matter what's happened in the past.

The only possible intimidation a golfer can give you is mental. If you're intimidated by a golfer, you're not mentally tough.

[pk500]

Re: Is Tiger The Most Intimidating, Imposing and Frightening Figure Ever in Sports?

Absolutely. Golf is a game, basketball is a sport.

And I maintain, a golfer is not intimidating.



That's what I disagree on. You can't know, no matter what's happened in the past.

The only possible intimidation a golfer can give you is mental. If you're intimidated by a golfer, you're not mentally tough.

This explains everything. You think only physical sports can be intimidating, so there's the crux of our difference right there. No sense arguing now, especially since you inanely believe that golf isn't a sport.

I could ask you to define the difference between a game and sport for comedy's sake, but that's an entire can of worms that doesn't need to be opened in this thread.

Take care,
PK

[pk500]

Re: Is Tiger The Most Intimidating, Imposing and Frightening Figure Ever in Sports?

The only possible intimidation a golfer can give you is mental. If you're intimidated by a golfer, you're not mentally tough.

I'll counter that if you're intimidated by a 6-10 guy trying to dunk over you, you're not mentally tough, either.

Let's face it: In the normal course of play, neither Tiger nor that 6-10 center are going to physically hurt you. The center is not going to dunk on you and then beat the f*ck out of you.

So in both sports, you lose in a head-to-head and are humiliated to some degree. Yet you insist there's a difference. There is no difference, especially when you're talking about a position in basketball that has limited contact, such as a guard.

If a guard figuratively breaks your ankles with a move and embarrasses you without making a touch of contact, what's the difference between that and Tiger putting his approach shot 3 feet from the pin while Phil puts a similar approach shot in the sand?

Nothing, except it's not in the hood. It's by preppy white dudes and a Cablinasian at a country club. Is that it? Is that why golf can't be intimidating and is only a game, not a sport, 'cause it doesn't have cred?

Take care,
PK

[pk500]

Re: Is Tiger The Most Intimidating, Imposing and Frightening Figure Ever in Sports?

Funny, from ESPN's retrospective of Tiger Woods' first 10 years on the PGA Tour, now live at ESPN.com. This recounts Woods' first victory on Tour:

>>>Woods entered the last round of the 90-hole Las Vegas Invitational four strokes behind Ronnie Black with established winners Davis Love III and Fred Couples among those between him and the leader. But a blistering 64 -- the lowest score in the final round by any of the 79 competitors -- put Woods into a playoff with Love and when Davis missed the green and failed to get up and down from a bunker on the first extra hole, it gave Woods not only his first victory with a routine par but also established a pattern that would become one of the calling cards of Woods: his ability to intimidate opponents -- especially quality opponents -- into mistakes.<<<

The almighty ESPN, which gives nightly BJ's all winter long to your hoops' heroes, thinks Tiger can intimidate. I agree.

Thanks,
PK

[ehh]

Re: Is Tiger The Most Intimidating, Imposing and Frightening Figure Ever in Sports?

Let's face it: In the normal course of play, neither Tiger nor that 6-10 center are going to physically hurt you. The center is not going to dunk on you and then beat the f*ck out of you.

You're trying to tell me, someone who played college basketball, and suffered a broken nose, wrist, ankle, several fingers, and a permanent back injury that I got when I was undercut after a two-handed dunk, that someone on a basketball court isn't going to hurt me?

It wasn't a straight fight, but the kid who undercut me absolutely did it intentionally and was ejected from the game and suspended. There are no dirty plays in golf. Another golfer isn't going to give you an intentional career ending/alterning injury on the course. The occasions are rare in basketball, baseball, football, hockey but there is always a chance of it happening (McSorely in hockey), there isn't in golf.

So in both sports, you lose in a head-to-head and are humiliated to some degree. Yet you insist there's a difference. There is no difference, especially when you're talking about a position in basketball that has limited contact, such as a guard.

I believe there is a big difference. The comparisons you're making are not equal. Tiger hitting an approach shot within a foot of the pin and Phil hitting his in the bunker are equivalent of Manu Ginobilli hitting a three pointer and Dwayne Wade missing one. How does that humilate Wade?

It's extremely rare that you see people laughing when a golfer hits a bad shot, usually the only time they do laugh is if the golfer has a humorous reaction or the ball hits something entertaining such as a person or a building.

Golf has nothing equivalent to getting crossed over, having someone hit a 450 foot homer off you, or having a running back juke you out of your cleats. No individual sport does. I believe you said you were a cross country runner in college, so if someone wins the Boston Marathon by 4 minutes, does that mean every other runner in the race feels humiliated? Are you going to be intimidated if some Kenyan legend is on the blocks (well, there are no blocks in marathons, but whatever) right next to you?

If a guard figuratively breaks your ankles with a move and embarrasses you without making a touch of contact, what's the difference between that and Tiger putting his approach shot 3 feet from the pin while Phil puts a similar approach shot in the sand?

Once again, the fact that someone else made you fall. There is absolutely zero proof that Tiger Woods made Phil put it in the sand.

Nothing, except it's not in the hood. It's by preppy white dudes and a Cablinasian at a country club. Is that it? Is that why golf can't be intimidating and is only a game, not a sport, 'cause it doesn't have cred?

Basketball is the only sport on the planet that could be considered "hood" as you put it. Baseball certainly isn't, neither is football. Same with hockey. Yet, IMO you can be humiliated and intimidated in all of those. And since you asked me not to, I won't get into why golf is not a sport.

Also, I do not believe that only physical sports involve intimidation. I think poker can be an extremely intimidating game. If you sit down next to Johnny Chan (who's as polite and mild-mannered as they come) you're going to be intimidated because he can humilate you by bluffing you outta a pot with rags, or setting a trap and taking all your chips w. the nuts while you never saw it coming. If he plays his cards on any given hand, you immediately think "oh ****!" in your mind.

I just do not agree with your logic. Based on your thinking, you're going to tell me that Pete Weber is the second most intimidating sports figure because in the 10th frame, when you go to roll your potential winning strike, you're going to grip the ball a little too tight and roll a bad ball because Weber, and not some other bowler, is sitting on the bench 20 feet behind you.

We just have different feelings on the situation. Neither one of us is going to convince the other to change their mind.

[pk500]

Re: Is Tiger The Most Intimidating, Imposing and Frightening Figure Ever in Sports?

You're trying to tell me, someone who played college basketball, and suffered a broken nose, wrist, ankle, several fingers, and a permanent back injury that I got when I was undercut after a two-handed dunk, that someone on a basketball court isn't going to hurt me?

It's wasn't a straight fight, but the kid who undercut me absolutely did it intentionally and was ejected from the game and suspended. There are no dirty plays in golf. Another golfer isn't going to give you an intentional career ending/alterning injury on the course.

Fair enough. But your contention still remains that intimidation only can come from physical sources, not mental, and I completely disagree with that.

Take Wayne Gretzky, for example. He played a very physical sport yet wasn't a physical presence. But you're trying to tell me that Gretzky didn't intimidate guys when he was on the ice even though he didn't hit, didn't fight and was the weakest player on the Oilers in every strength test the team ever administered?

It's extremely rare that you see people laughing when a golfer hits a bad shot, usually the only time they do laugh is if the golfer has a humorous reaction or the ball hits something entertaining such as a person or a building.

That has nothing to do with the sport itself. It has everything to do with the ethics and sportsmanship of the sport. Golf, for better or worse, is a gentleman's sport. Basketball, over the last two decades or so, has evolved into a game that celebrates thug life. It's just as much about how you play as the result -- me, me, me, gotta be on the highlights, baby. It's pretty telling when a guy who just does his job without woofing, like Ray Allen and Tim Duncan, is the exception in the NBA and not the rule when it comes to player deportment.

John Wooden is the greatest coach in the history of basketball. He required his players to keep their hair trimmed. He required them to have no facial hair. If you swore in a UCLA practice, you were thrown out. If any UCLA player taunted an opponent, I'm sure Wooden benched him.

Wooden won 88 straight games -- an NCAA record -- and 10 NCAA titles, yet his teams showed better sportsmanship than most golfers. How do you explain that?

I believe you said you were a cross country runner in college, so if someone wins the Boston Marathon by 4 minutes, does that mean every other runner in the race feels humiliated? Are you going to be intimidated if some Kenyan legend is on the blocks (well, there are no blocks in marathons, but whatever) right next to you?

You have a damn good memory, my man! Yes, I ran Division I cross country and track in college, but it was for a small school. We ran against a mix of Division I and III schools at various meets, so it wasn't a true, big-time Division I program as such.

Nevertheless, I ran in the NCAA Division I Eastern Regional cross-country meet at Lehigh in November 1983. Moments before the race, I was running my customary sprints from the starting line to warm up. And as I jogged back to the line each time, I noticed groups of runners for powerhouses Georgetown and Villanova that I had just read about in Track and Field News a few weeks before. I was running against Olympic-caliber Kenyans and Irishmen, for Christ's sake!

You bet your azz that was intimidating, even though those guys were 30 seconds ahead of me after the first mile and probably ended up beating me by five minutes. It was a signal: "This is the big time, pal. This is the real deal."

I'm sure I wasn't the only one who felt that way. I guess that makes me weak in your world, where if you woof and lose you still have cred. I ran pretty well that day, and it's a race I'll never forget. Nothing wrong with admitting intimidation if you can overcome it and perform.

Also, I do not believe that only physical sports involve intimidation. I think poker can be an extremely intimidating game. If you sit down next to Johnny Chan (who's as polite and mild-mannered as they come) you're going to be intimidated because he can humilate you by bluffing you outta a pot with rags, or setting a trap and taking all your chips w. the nuts while you never saw it coming. If he plays his cards on any given hand, you immediately think "oh ****!" in your mind.

Why can't Tiger do the same thing in a twosome? Let's say Els hits a fairway approach shot 18 feet from the green and is feeling good about himself. And let's say his playing partner, Tiger, hits from a bad lie in the rough, about the same distance from the green as Els' original shot, and puts it 3 feet from the pin.

That's not going to humiliate Els? He's not thinking, "Oh, sh*t, Tiger has done it again?"

I sure hope you think poker is a game and not a sport, by the way.

I just do not agree with your logic. Based on your thinking, you're going to tell me that Pete Weber is the second most intimidating sports figure because in the 10th frame, when you go to roll your potential winning strike, you're going to grip the ball a little too tight and roll a bad ball because Weber, and not some other bowler, is sitting on the bench 20 feet behind you.

If a bowler had the same kind of dominance as Woods does in golf, with that 12-0 record while leading in majors, then, yes, he could be very intimidating. Especially in a TV final, where the last two bowlers are rolling head to head.

No question that physical sports are intimidating. But non-physical, non-confrontational sports also can have intimidation factors if one player is dominant and clutch, which is certainly the case with Woods.

Take care,
PK

[ehh]

Re: Is Tiger The Most Intimidating, Imposing and Frightening Figure Ever in Sports?

I guess the bottom line in our disagreement is that what you view as intimidation I view as pressure, and I don't really believe that pressure is higher because a golfer is someone as dominant as Tiger Woods.

Maybe for the first time you face him (like you said when the first time you raced against G'Town and Nova people, and like the first time I played against someone as large as Eddy Curry) but after that you become accustomed to it.

If it's a tight situation down the stretch I think someone is just as likely to choke whether they're facing Tiger or not, and that's where we differ. I honestly believe if Phil and Tiger are walking down the 18th fairway tied up on Sunday at the Master's that Phil would not be scared of Tiger. Actually, for Phil's sake and people of his talent level, I'd hope they step it up and play their best. But I guess that's what seperates the champs from the chumps.

Anyway, I can see your point of view and respect it.

[forensicd]

Re: Is Tiger The Most Intimidating, Imposing and Frightening Figure Ever in Sports?

The idea of intimidation is something that goes beyond the physical realm, and i can attest to it in all of the sports I have participated over the 30 years of my existence, on all levels from amatuer to college basketball. When i was a swimmer, and I was in the state meet, there was a guy who I had never beat before in lane 4; i was in lane 5. Was it intimidating he was next to me, and I could see him the entire time i was swimming the event? Hell ya, because in my mind i knew he had beaten me dozens of times. Did he physically punish me? of course not, but intimidation comes from the mental side of sports, not the physical.

In college baskerball, as well as high school, I had played against a number of great players, some of which went on to play in the nba. They were no more intimadating than myself (im 6'6", 230) physically, but their game they brought was so much more athletic that it got into my mind that i couldnt hang with them on the court. It wasnt that they beat me physically, but they were so constantly good that it gets to a point where you come to a point and say "i cant gaurd this guy, he is too good".

This leads to golf. I have picked up golf over the past half a decade beacuse my knees no longer allow to play basketball at the level i want to play. Is golf a sport? Of course it is, and one of the hardest possible sports around. Basketball comes natural to those that are good at it, as does golf to many people, but to get the fundamentals down of golf is a whole different ball game than basketball or football. If you take the club back even an inch off the correct path, you will result in a shot thats off center. In basketball, you can release your shot early or late, heck even throw it up there, and you can still easily make the shot. So, physically, the game of golf is much more complex than playing basketball. Now, brute strength of course goes to basketball, but there is a misconception that being physical means being strong. The essence of being pyhiscal is the body itself, the motion the body goes through in performing the end result. Golf has 10x more body control and movement than shooting a basketball. To master the game of golf, you need to be in complete control of your body and mind. This is why tiger is the most intimidating sports figure on the planet. He is the best there in is his sport, without a question, and when he has the lead come sunday, you know he will not lose it. He isnt going to take out his 3 iron and bash you over the head with it to intimidate you, but rather he does it with his short game, or his constant barage of fairways hit. At some point, you will mentally break, becuase the guy is like a rock, and you let it in your mind you cant beat him. That is the essence in intimidation. Not whether some guy will dunk on you, beacuse if he does, the next time he tries you punch him in the balls, and he wont dunk on you again. You can change his intimidation factor by altering yours. With tiger, there is no outside intimidation factor.

[pk500]

Re: Is Tiger The Most Intimidating, Imposing and Frightening Figure Ever in Sports?

If it's a tight situation down the stretch I think someone is just as likely to choke whether they're facing Tiger or not, and that's where we differ.

Absolutely.

I honestly believe if Phil and Tiger are walking down the 18th fairway tied up on Sunday at the Master's that Phil would not be scared of Tiger. Actually, for Phil's sake and people of his talent level, I'd hope they step it up and play their best. But I guess that's what seperates the champs from the chumps.

Yep, that's where we differ. If Phil is going head to head with Stewart Cink, he's not going to have nearly the fear factor that he does going against Tiger, who has kicked his and the rest of the field's collective azz 12 times out of 12 when entering the final day of a major in the lead or tied for the lead. That definitely enters your head.

Anyway, I can see your point of view and respect it.

Likewise, man.

Take care,
PK