so let me get this straight....

[gsize19]

Re: so let me get this straight....

The people who complain about a sports game not changing enough from one year to the next never really seem to ever come up with a good response to "How much do you expect the game to change in a year when it's based on a sport that has barely changed in the past year?".

Amen brother... Great response!!!

That is just it, really, the foundations of the major sports have NOT changed for 20-30 years, other than a few minor rule changes in all the major sports and maybe looks of newer equipment...

In MLB The Show, I either swing the Move, or hit the X to bat... I don't need to hit a combination of X, Triangle, Triangle, X, Circle just to swing a bat, that is ridiculous, but the way it is heading...

Great banter, I enjoyed your response, and agree with all of it... $60 justification, so ture, and I knew that, but those are probably the same ones that will vacate the series in a matter of years when some of us have been playing a certain game/developer since it's inception on platforms like Sega Genesis...

I mean in reality, if there are updates to stadiums, that is what I pay for, if there are updates in roster, uni's, etc., but if the game played near perfect the year before, I expect it to play the equally the same the current year, and in most cases that is the furthest from the truth... These developers cater to a few that probably rent games... Mini-games, I HATE THEM, never play them, and only see it is a waste of disc space and having to rob peter to pay paul, meaning they had to take the space from somewhere, which is generally from a well oiled game mode that gets watered down because someone wants to play with a 2 year old Tiger, or someone wants to play 3 on 3 arcade hockey... Most people look at this modes, try them once, never go back to them, not the sim style players, so instead of catering to those, these developers need to start pointing out, the main title, whether it be TW, NHL, Madden, MLB THe SHow, etc. need to just be upfront and say "These titles are for the simulation crowd and we will have DLC available for those at a cost that like mini-games, arcade style play". Then they would see with revenue how much these ridiculous mini-game modes actually attract... Cater to the sim style players and make the arcade style be forced to download a mode, maybe give one free with the purchase but charge $5 for each additional mini-game add-on...

A possible solution, and the developer would clean-up and sell more product... When they get to the "finished" state of the game, the following year and subsequent years later until a new engine for a next gen is needed, they sell the game for $39-49... Reason, you are buying the same finished product as last year, but if you want to play online, you need to upgrade... Then, since game cost $60 now, you offer some DLC in the stores, this will go to pay for the work to complete the new mode, since the "finished" product is done, development for that is in essence, done... The cost covers development of mini-games, and have 5 or 6 (the modes there now) offered as DLC, at $5 a pop, or all of them for $20, so the price of the game is back at $60... With the original disk, they enhance their bread and butter, FRANCHISES/SEASONS (I say bread and butter because years ago before Online, this is what people paid for and wanted, and this is the first place the rob from when they need disk space) I think they make more money doing this, because you would get more buyers at $39 dollars for the original game, which doesn't cost nearly that with a "finished" product, and it will generate some DLC sales from those that want it... Problem is, makes too much sense...

[mcmax3000]

Re: so let me get this straight....

I love the idea of releasing one game and then paying for updates each year instead of buying a new game (or even doing the disc release every other year or something with updates on the off years) but it's hard to convince EA or 2K or Sony to sell a $30 or $40 update on the off years when they can still sell a $60 disc and probably still get just as many people to buy it.

Also, I've heard that in some cases, the deals that they have with the sports leagues require them to release a new game every year. That's probably a big part of the issue right there.

As for the 'mini-games' you speak of, on their own, they wouldn't even make enough money to cover the cost of designing them. Their purpose is simply a back of the box bullet point & the more of those there are, the more likely somebody on the fence is going to purchase because they believe they're getting more content.

Designing the game to appeal specifically to the sim crowd would cause problems. It has to be accessible to both. If you design the gameplay specifically to appeal to the hardcore simulation fans, the casual fans will likely find the game too difficult to get into and they'll stop buying, causing the publishers to make less money because while those hardcore simulation fans would be happy & would probably buy the game every year, there aren't enough of them to sustain a franchise.

For example, when it comes to Football, I'm as casual a player as you can get. I don't really watch the sport and I know very little about it. I played, I think Madden 05, on the original Xbox because you needed a save from it to unlock a vehicle in Burnout: Revenge (my favourite series of all time) & I absolutely hated the game because I found it way too difficult and had no idea what was going on.

For me personally, the past two years of Madden have been the best ever because they've added in things that make it more accessible to someone who knows very little about Football (the automatic play calling, the arrows that show you where you should be going on a running play, etc) to the point that I actually bought Madden last year, something I never thought I'd do.

I think the best sports games are the ones that can appeal to everyone, be it somebody who knows nothing about the sport, a casual fan of the sport, and a hardcore fan that was a super deep simulation.

You mentioned NHL, which may have had some rough spots in the past couple of years (I don't know as I think the last one I bought was NHL 10, solely because of finances the past couple of fall seasons) but it's a perfect example of something that can appeal to everyone as I think the NHL series is fantastic and I couldn't care less about the sport of Hockey. FIFA is another good example. MLB: The Show is close but I think it's still a little intimidating to someone who isn't hardcore into baseball.

Madden has probably gone a little too far in the casual direction based on the reactions I see to it around here. Tiger I think is doing better this year but I think there's definitely room for improvement in the simulation direction. I still think Links 2004 on the original Xbox did it the best in terms of Golf.

[gsize19]

Re: so let me get this straight....

Great points, which lead me right into my argument, which really isn't an argument ... You mentioned off years, and while I used to think it was cycles of two, now I am more leaning to cycles of three from some sports... It takes two years to work the multiple bugs out anymore because these developers mess with to much.

I get what you are saying that it wouldn't appeal to the casual gamer... Somewhat, but the casual gamer is the one looking for back of the box items, correct, so you sell the game to the bread a butter guys, the guys you know who are coming back, which I would say in most sports game it is a 60/40 to 70/30 split in terms of those looking for a sim, versus and rock em, sock em type gameplay... So the developers realize finally (like in NHL10 post patch), hey, we got this right, almost everything about it from penalties, to gameplay, it feels like the sport we are trying to create... At this point the next year and possibly subsequent years after, you sell the game for $40... You are going to get your sim guys back year after year, reward us for being the bread and butter, and include on the back of the box, arcade style, 3 on 3's, no wind, super bats, incredible half court shots, whatever the flavor of the week is in terms of mini-games is for the sort will be available for download through the PSN, Xbox Live...

This then creates the situation where the back of the boxers, if they want to play the mini-games will then like I said chose from the mini-games they want and download them straight to their system, which sell them for $5 and if you have more than 4, package them to where it is $5 a piece or 6 or 7 for $20, this way they would be paying the price they would normally for games that they purchase now, the mini-games are there, and the simulation crowd has what they want, a finished game in reality...

I am not saying cut the play levels, as you said in Madden, it has been watered down, keep that, Amatuer, Rookie, Pro, Superstar, slider settings, all that is still there, it is just the mini-games, the modes they add that takes space that no one uses, and they waste development staff on, but some play them, so if you want to play them, while the game is sold to the sim crowd in mind, you still can customize the game, it just won't have mini-games on the disk, similar to having to DL courses on TW... You know you may have to if you want more variety, but only those looking for more variety will do so, otherwise, they sold you the game, you are content with the features, bingo!

I still think EA, San Diego studios, 2K, these developers that put out a sports game every year bank from this, because you get the guys back that are loyals and reward them, you win some guys back with the lower price tag who left because they felt cheated by watered down attempts by developers, and you get the mini-game crowd because they have options, and those options are if you want the FULL game for that year, go to the store and download the Add-on content that couldn't be added because they felt it was important to authenticate the modes that made them what they are today...

Examples I would have on a disk:

TW-
Online
Road to the PGA
Play Now
Play now Tourney (i.e. a full 72 sponsored tourney like in the old days)

This would offer more disk space for courses if they got the licenses to use more

DLC-
The TW child to adult thingie
and really whatever other mini games are on there now
Multiple courses

NHL
Online
Franchise
Season
BAP
Play Now
Play Now Playoffs

DLC
3 on 3 Arcade
Some international leagues (make them free to those who buy internationally)
Skills challenges not associated with All-Star weekend
Legends
Pond Hockey
The Winter Classic rink for that year (if they have the license to use it)
so on and so forth

Just some things like that that would say, hey, the game is done, but the mini-games are an extra