This is why NASCAR will always be viewed as a joke to some

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  • jcollins28
    MVP
    • Jan 2005
    • 1023

    #31
    Re: This is why NASCAR will always be viewed as a joke to some

    Originally posted by pk500
    So you're saying that gender had nothing to do with Legge's hiring? It was all based on ability and her feedback to the engineers?

    Good thing I didn't have liquid in my mouth. My screen would have been painted after that wet laugh.

    I'm surprised Montagny even tested. That seat was pre-ordained for Legge as long as she kept the car on the track during the Sebring test, and you, I and everyone else knows it. At least everyone else and I can admit that. You? Well ...

    Legge is a solid driver, and I wish her well. If she wins a race this year, I'll be the first to tip my cap to her. If she wins three poles and finishes in the top 12 in points, as Danica did last year, then well done to her. I don't hold anywhere near the animosity toward Legge that you do toward Patrick because as far as I'm concerned, any attention drawn to either flavor of open-wheel racing is good. I've let 1996 go; you haven't.

    As for Danica, I've never called her Senna. She's a competent race driver who needs to win this year, no question. But when you consider that only nine other rookies have finished in the the top four at Indy in the last 20 years, I'd say she did a good job. Some of those rookies' names: Mansell, Villeneuve, Montoya, Castroneves. I'm certainly not comparing Patrick to them, but it's not bad company to keep.

    Also don't forget that Danica finished second in the Formula Ford Festival in 2000, the best finish by an American ever. The only driver to beat her is now longtime BAR F1 test driver Anthony Davidson.

    Has Danica won? No. Is that a strike against her? Yes. But you write as if she was plucked from obscurity from the SCCA Runoffs to drive Rahal's car, and that's the furthest from the truth.

    As for the famous FHM spread, that was done two years ago when she was a driver in the Toyota Atlantic series, the No. 1 feeder series for Champ Car. Nice try, though.

    The only major magazine cover on which Danica appeared last year was Sports Illustrated, the largest sports publication in America, after her strong showing at Indianapolis. She was the first Indy-style driver on the cover in 25 years.

    Take care,
    PK

    Oh my freakin god. Again why is Legge brought into this? So now your trying to sell Danica's shortcomings on to Legge? Why do you feel so threatened that you must try to throw Legge under the buss? Look maybe Legge's sex did play into it but unlike Danica Legge has 3 wins in Atlantics which I'm certain also played a part in her getting that seat! Unlike Danica Legge has a solid resume to stand on rather then standing in her bra and a thong. My whole point of contention was that Danica is over hyped nothing more nothing less. So how you go from that to bring Legge into this is beyond me. This has nothing to do with Legge. I can only imagine the amount of hang wringing you and all the other Danica supported will go through if Legge gets a win in CC before Danica wins in the IRL.
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    • pk500
      All Star
      • Jul 2002
      • 8062

      #32
      Re: This is why NASCAR will always be viewed as a joke to some

      Originally posted by jcollins28
      Oh my freakin god. Again why is Legge brought into this? So now your trying to sell Danica's shortcomings on to Legge? Why do you feel so threatened that you must try to throw Legge under the buss? Look maybe Legge's sex did play into it but unlike Danica Legge has 3 wins in Atlantics which I'm certain also played a part in her getting that seat! Unlike Danica Legge has a solid resume to stand on rather then standing in her bra and a thong. My whole point of contention was that Danica is over hyped nothing more nothing less. So how you go from that to bring Legge into this is beyond me. This has nothing to do with Legge. I can only imagine the amount of hang wringing you and all the other Danica supported will go through if Legge gets a win in CC before Danica wins in the IRL.
      Reading is fundamental: I said I would tip my hat to Legge if she won a race this year and also complimented her as capable driver. Guess you're still wearing the Joe Heitzler blinders.

      As for bringing Legge into this, well, why shouldn't I? First, we both acknowledge that Danica's gender helped her get the ride and also helped her earn such mainstream media attention. Second, you continue to bring up the fact that she posed for the FHM spread -- which you conveniently forget occurred when she was racing in a Champ Car feeder series. That's not a reference to gender, the fact that Danica is the only female driver in the series?

      So why is it disingenuous to bring Legge into the equation as the only female Champ Car driver, especially since part of the reason she was hired was because of her gender? You accuse me of equating Danica to Senna, which is simply not true. But you're talking up Legge's three Atlantic victories as giving her credentials equal to the last great English Champ Car rookie, Mansell.

      In other words, you're talking out of both sides of your mouth. Danica has a season under her belt with three poles and no victories. If Legge accomplishes more this season, all the power to her and full kudos to her. It will be a huge plus for the series.

      Finally, there is a direct comparison between Legge and Danica because the ghost of Ray Charles could see that Legge was hired partially as Champ Car's response to Danicamania.

      Is Danica overhyped? Yes. But Champ Car doesn't want Legge on the cover of SI and in People magazine and on TV shows and magazines across the country? The sanctioning body wants to promote her as "just another driver?" Give me a break -- you're more naive than I thought.

      Champ Car will try to promote Legge just as hard as the IRL does Danica. The difference is that the IRL has a marquee event that gives Danica an international platform -- the Indianapolis 500. Without Indy, Danica would have been a sidebar last year. But her strong performance at Indy was what catapulted her to national attention.

      Without the platform of Indy, Champ Car is going to face a tougher time getting mainstream attention for Danica. Hell, Milka Duno -- who is more attractive than Danica or Kat and has five college degrees -- won a Grand Am race in 2004 and still is anonymous to everyone other than the most hardcore sports-car fan.

      Indy made Danica. And her performance there justified the hype. She didn't fulfill the hype for the rest of the season, but she was in the spotlight at Indy and delivered. Led 19 laps, led with six laps to go, finished fourth. If a Champ Car rookie did that at Indy, you would be thrilled.

      Take care,
      PK
      Last edited by pk500; 02-25-2006, 02:01 PM.
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      • jcollins28
        MVP
        • Jan 2005
        • 1023

        #33
        Re: This is why NASCAR will always be viewed as a joke to some

        Originally posted by pk500
        Reading is fundamental: I said I would tip my hat to Legge if she won a race this year and also complimented her as capable driver. Guess you're still wearing the Joe Heitzler blinders.

        As for bringing Legge into this, well, why shouldn't I? First, we both acknowledge that Danica's gender helped her get the ride and also helped her earn such mainstream media attention. Second, you continue to bring up the fact that she posed for the FHM spread -- which you conveniently forget occurred when she was racing in a Champ Car feeder series. That's not a reference to gender, the fact that Danica is the only female driver in the series?

        So why is it disingenuous to bring Legge into the equation as the only female Champ Car driver, especially since part of the reason she was hired was because of her gender? You accuse me of equating Danica to Senna, which is simply not true. But you're talking up Legge's three Atlantic victories as giving her credentials equal to the last great English Champ Car rookie, Mansell.

        In other words, you're talking out of both sides of your mouth. Danica has a season under her belt with three poles and no victories. If Legge accomplishes more this season, all the power to her and full kudos to her. It will be a huge plus for the series.

        Finally, there is a direct comparison between Legge and Danica because the ghost of Ray Charles could see that Legge was hired partially as Champ Car's response to Danicamania.

        Is Danica overhyped? Yes. But Champ Car doesn't want Legge on the cover of SI and in People magazine and on TV shows and magazines across the country? The sanctioning body wants to promote her as "just another driver?" Give me a break -- you're more naive than I thought.

        Champ Car will try to promote Legge just as hard as the IRL does Danica. The difference is that the IRL has a marquee event that gives Danica an international platform -- the Indianapolis 500. Without Indy, Danica would have been a sidebar last year. But her strong performance at Indy was what catapulted her to national attention.

        Without the platform of Indy, Champ Car is going to face a tougher time getting mainstream attention for Danica. Hell, Milka Duno -- who is more attractive than Danica or Kat and has five college degrees -- won a Grand Am race in 2004 and still is anonymous to everyone other than the most hardcore sports-car fan.

        Indy made Danica. And her performance there justified the hype. She didn't fulfill the hype for the rest of the season, but she was in the spotlight at Indy and delivered. Led 19 laps, led with six laps to go, finished fourth. If a Champ Car rookie did that at Indy, you would be thrilled.

        Take care,
        PK
        Danica's gender is the only reason why she got that ride. There is nothing else for her to be qualified for the seat she has. She has never won a thing yet she is hyped up more then the guy who won the IRL Championship and the Indy 500! Don't you see a problem with that?

        Danica did more then just the FHM spread. You seem to forget the pics of her taking off her driving suit? Or the lame as hell Peak commercial? Nice try at putting words in my mouth though. I can't seem to recall ever bringing Mansell's name into this in relation to Legge. All I'm trying to say and what you will never admit to is that unlike Danica, Legge has a solid resume and she has a nose for Victory lane.

        She has shown that she can deal with the pressure's of driving and get the car home in 1st place. We have yet to see that from Danica. When did I say that CHAMP CAR would not promote Legge? Legge will get attention paid to her but unlike Danica where the media blitz is misleading in regards to her driving career Legge will be able to be advertised as a winner. Christian Fittipaldi did pretty good as a CART/CHAMP CAR rookie at Indy finished 2nd I believe.
        Last edited by jcollins28; 02-25-2006, 02:29 PM.
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        • jcollins28
          MVP
          • Jan 2005
          • 1023

          #34
          Re: This is why NASCAR will always be viewed as a joke to some

          I don't hold anywhere near the animosity toward Legge that you do toward Patrick because as far as I'm concerned, any attention drawn to either flavor of open-wheel racing is good. I've let 1996 go; you haven't.
          DING DING DING! Here is the crux of our disagreement. I have let 1996 go Paul. Read my post from start to finish. Who brought Legge into this and turned this into a CC vs IRL debate. It was you my friend. My whole point of contention from the start of this is that the media needs to lay off the Danica machine until she wins. When she finishes 13th which she did plenty of in 05 I do not need to see her interviewed over the other top 5 guys. I know how well her 13th place run went. One spot better then the guy who finished 14th. Just leave Danica alone and let her race. When she wins which I believe will be this year then roll out all the hoopla and praise. Until then don't try to sell me a bill of goods that is bunk. That is all I have been trying to say from my first admittedly very sarcastic post on this subject.
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          • pk500
            All Star
            • Jul 2002
            • 8062

            #35
            Re: This is why NASCAR will always be viewed as a joke to some

            Originally posted by jcollins28
            Danica's gender is the only reason why she got that ride. There is nothing else for her to be qualified for the seat she has. She has never won a thing yet she is hyped up more then the guy who won the IRL Championship and the Indy 500! Don't you see a problem with that?
            Since the nationwide media created the hype, no, I don't have a problem with that. Thanks for giving the IRL PR department the credit, but it didn't create the hype. The national media did.

            Originally posted by jcollins28
            Danica did more then just the FHM spread. You seem to forget the pics of her taking off her driving suit? Or the lame as hell Peak commercial?
            Did Danica or Team Rahal write the commercial? No. Peak did.

            Originally posted by jcollins28
            Nice try at putting words in my mouth though. I can't seem to recall ever bringing Mansell's name into this in relation to Legge. All I'm trying to say and what you will never admit to is that unlike Danica, Legge has a solid resume and she has a nose for Victory lane.
            Before last season, Legge and Patrick had very similar resumes. Kat had no wins in F3, no wins in Formula Renault and no wins in Formula Ford. And she didn't finish second in the Festival. But yes, Legge had a strong season in Atlantics last year. Full credit to her, as she is a promising talent for the future of Champ Car.

            Originally posted by jcollins28
            She has shown that she can deal with the pressure's of driving and get the car home in 1st place. We have yet to see that from Danica. When did I say that CHAMP CAR would not promote Legge? Legge will get attention paid to her but unlike Danica where the media blitz is misleading in regards to her driving career Legge will be able to be advertised as a winner. Christian Fittipaldi did pretty good as a CART/CHAMP CAR rookie at Indy finished 2nd I believe.
            Legge will be marketed as a female driver, period. That's the hook. Anything else is superfluous, but her victories last year will help -- but not nearly as much as her gender.

            As for Fittipaldi, yes, he was one of the eight drivers with top-four or better finishes at Indy as a rookie in the last 20 years. But you can't put Christian Fittipaldi in the same class as Mansell, Villeneuve, Castroneves or Montoya, just as you can't put Danica Patrick in that class, either.

            Take care,
            PK
            Last edited by pk500; 02-25-2006, 02:55 PM.
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            • pk500
              All Star
              • Jul 2002
              • 8062

              #36
              Re: This is why NASCAR will always be viewed as a joke to some

              Originally posted by jcollins28
              DING DING DING! Here is the crux of our disagreement. I have let 1996 go Paul. Read my post from start to finish. Who brought Legge into this and turned this into a CC vs IRL debate. It was you my friend. My whole point of contention from the start of this is that the media needs to lay off the Danica machine until she wins. When she finishes 13th which she did plenty of in 05 I do not need to see her interviewed over the other top 5 guys. I know how well her 13th place run went. One spot better then the guy who finished 14th. Just leave Danica alone and let her race. When she wins which I believe will be this year then roll out all the hoopla and praise. Until then don't try to sell me a bill of goods that is bunk. That is all I have been trying to say from my first admittedly very sarcastic post on this subject.
              Then you really don't understand how the media works. The media always goes for style over substance. And the media doesn't take what PR people spoon-feed them. PR people try to nudge the media toward certain stories, but trust me, the Danica story didn't need any nudging. The media were all over the story at Indy.

              And if the national media want to put Danica Patrick in the spotlight, then we're all for it. Open-wheel racing can't afford to be choosy with its stars. This isn't NASCAR. If the media wants to ordain someone in open-wheel racing as a star, then open-wheel racing needs to run with it until it's exhausted.

              But because that open-wheel star is in a series that you detest, especially since she came from a Champ Car feeder series, you resent it. It's really that simple. If the IRL is that irrelevant to you and you hate it that much, then why should the coverage afforded to Danica Patrick and the Indy 500 even register on your radar?

              Take care,
              PK
              Last edited by pk500; 02-25-2006, 02:56 PM.
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              • jcollins28
                MVP
                • Jan 2005
                • 1023

                #37
                Re: This is why NASCAR will always be viewed as a joke to some

                Originally posted by pk500
                Then you really don't understand how the media works. The media always goes for style over substance. And the media doesn't take what PR people spoon-feed them. PR people try to nudge the media toward certain stories, but trust me, the Danica story didn't need any nudging. The media were all over the story at Indy.

                And if the national media want to put Danica Patrick in the spotlight, then we're all for it. Open-wheel racing can't afford to be choosy with its stars. This isn't NASCAR. If the media wants to ordain someone in open-wheel racing as a star, then open-wheel racing needs to run with it until it's exhausted.

                But because that open-wheel star is in a series that you detest, especially since she came from a Champ Car feeder series, you resent it. It's really that simple, and an example that you can't let go of "The Split." If the IRL is that irrelevant to you and you hate it that much, then why should the coverage afforded to Danica Patrick and the Indy 500 even register on your radar?

                Take care,
                PK
                Do you ever stop talking in circles? I thought I was pretty clear about what my problem is but you missed it. Funny that someone who points the dirty end of the stick at someone suffers from the same problem that he accuses other people of having. Like I said let her win then hype her. Until then treat her like every other guy who finishes out of the top 5. What that has to do with 1996 or the split I really do not know but I'm sure you will tell me. Oh and the only thing I resent is that through this conversation you have tried repeatedly to put words into my mouth. Don't tell me what I resent, truth be told it was the right move for her to go to the IRL. She was not going to move up to CHAMP CAR after her last year in Atlantics.
                Last edited by jcollins28; 02-25-2006, 03:04 PM.
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                • lnin0
                  MVP
                  • Aug 2003
                  • 1507

                  #38
                  Re: This is why NASCAR will always be viewed as a joke to some

                  Tony Stewart, especially after his post race comments, should have been fined and had any points from Dayton taken away.

                  An act of malace carried out against another driver, weather you feel they wronged you first or not, which endangers the life of everyone should never ever be tolorated by a sports governing body.

                  Not only am I disappointed in NASCAR's inability, inconsistant and unwantoness to enforce rules to keep all drivers safe. I am very disturbed by the way almost every media outlets averted their eyes on the matter - like a bunch of crack heads waiting for a score while their dealer slaps his wife around in front of them.

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                  • pk500
                    All Star
                    • Jul 2002
                    • 8062

                    #39
                    Re: This is why NASCAR will always be viewed as a joke to some

                    Originally posted by jcollins28
                    Do you ever stop talking in circles? I thought I was pretty clear about what my problem is but you missed it. Funny that someone who points the dirty end of the stick at someone suffers from the same problem that he accuses other people of having. Like I said let her win then hype her.
                    And you fail to grasp that the media perpetuates the hype, not the sanctioning body, especially not an open-wheel sanctioning body in 2005. IRL and IMS PR can scream to the heavens about Danica, and we do, but unless the media listens and runs with the story, it goes nowhere. And Indy was the platform that put Danica in the media stratosphere.

                    If you'd like, I'd be more than happy to supply you with the addresses and contacts for the AP, USA Today, New York Times, ABC, ESPN, People Magazine, Sports Illustrated, et al, so you can issue your bitter beefs about their Danica hype with them. IRL PR hyped Danica, but that's it's job, just as Champ Car PR will do its best to hype Legge this year.

                    And I'll be a hell of a lot less resentful toward any media attention directed this year toward Legge -- and she'll get her share, no doubt -- if she is winless through the season than you are toward Patrick's media coverage through her winless 2005. Whatever is good for either series is good for the sport, especially if a reunion is on the horizon.

                    P.S.: It was obvious Danica wasn't going to advance to Champ Car. She drove for Rahal in Atlantics, and Rahal's only top-flight open-wheel team at the time -- and now -- is in the IndyCar Series. A no-sh*t statement if there ever was one, because she was under contract to Rahal.

                    Take care,
                    PK
                    Last edited by pk500; 02-25-2006, 04:49 PM.
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                    • jcollins28
                      MVP
                      • Jan 2005
                      • 1023

                      #40
                      Re: This is why NASCAR will always be viewed as a joke to some

                      Originally posted by pk500
                      And you fail to grasp that the media creates the hype, not the sanctioning body, especially not an open-wheel sanctioning body in 2005.

                      If you'd like I'd be more than happy to supply you with the addresses and contacts for the AP, USA Today, New York Times, ABC, ESPN, People Magazine, Sports Illustrated, et al, so you can issue your bitter beefs with them.

                      And I'll be a hell of a lot less resentful toward any media attention directed this year toward Legge -- and she'll get her share, no doubt -- if she is winless through the season than you are toward Patrick's media coverage through her winless 2005. Whatever is good for either series is good for the sport, especially if a reunion is on the horizon.

                      P.S.: It was obvious Danica wasn't going to advance to Champ Car. She drove for Rahal in Atlantics, and Rahal's only top-flight open-wheel team at the time -- and now -- is in the IndyCar Series. A no-sh*t statement if there ever was one, because she was under contract to Rahal.

                      Take care,
                      PK

                      I don't care who is responsible for the hype. It is my opinion that she is over hyped and her lack of results just reinforces that opinion. Again I'm not bitter just wish they would leave her alone. The media hype is a double edge sword. Who is to say that all that pressure might just be holding her down. It is a lot to over come and most of the hard core race fans are turned off by the attention that is paid to her because for the most part she is undeserving of it. And no I did not get those comments from the last CHAMP CAR Town Hall Meeting.

                      I do not see Legge winning this year. PKV is no where near the operation that Rahal is and you could make a good argument that the CHAMP CAR grid is a bit deeper in talent then what we will see in the IRL this year. If Legge gets the same attention that Danica has recieved and she is wadding up cars and falling all over herself you see me call her and CHAMP CAR out for it. One thing that I believe will be different from the Danicamania is that Katherine has a very pleasant attitude and a very nice smile. I know that may seem somewhat sexist and "who cares what they look like", but the fact is, if you hear and see someone on television all over the weekend, you can get sick of them. But if they are pleasant and smiling and in good cheer, its much easier to tolerate.

                      That was my issue and still is with Danica. I don't remember when the last time she smiled. I don't remember the last time I heard something pleasant come out of her mouth. talent for talent, Katherine is likely the better driver. But that will hardly matter if she doesn't get the results in 2006. It got annoying last year when Danica finished 15th on average and then her soundbite was bitter and she look unpleased and unhappy. I don't expect a driver to smile much after finishing 15th. but if I have to see the same person interviewed after every race and they are always in a bad mood and unpleasant to look at, it gets tiring quickly.

                      P.S. Yes I know she was under contract with Rahal but what I was saying is that even if she was not she would not have advanced to CHAMP CAR. There was no seats and not even Jon Fogarty the Atlantics Champion had a seat open for him.
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                      • lnin0
                        MVP
                        • Aug 2003
                        • 1507

                        #41
                        Re: This is why NASCAR will always be viewed as a joke to some

                        I think Danica is a good driver but probably could have used another year before taking to the IRL. I also hate the attention she gets from the media and how it overshadows the actaul events. Sure, she probably did wonders for the 500's ratings but after that all the casuals stopped paying attention and the real fans, who tuned in to see the drama of a race unfold, were left with the Danica Show.

                        I think Legge is probably a better driver than Danica but still would benifit from another year before going to Champ Car. Unfortunatly, better or not, a starting seat for Legge in CCWS is going to come off as a pure publicity gimmick to match the IRL's - and probably rightfully so - .

                        When it all comes down to it I feel a little sorry. Sorry that two equally qualified male drivers will be without a job this season and that two ladies, while obviously very talented, were given rides because of the tits and ***. Hopefully Patrick and Legge can prove a chance is all they needed, no matter what the unscrupolous commercial reasons behind it.

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                        • mgoblue
                          Go Wings!
                          • Jul 2002
                          • 25477

                          #42
                          Re: This is why NASCAR will always be viewed as a joke to some

                          on the Knauss topic, shouldn't Nascar do something instead of their current "suspension" where Knauss just can't be on site, but can still talk to his assistant and put his imprint on things? The temporary crew chief (I forget his name) even said that Knauss deserves credit, he created the setups, tweaks, etc. Shouldn't they have some "can't be involved with the team at all" rule during the suspension? Seems like the current suspension isn't tough enough.
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                          • mercalnd
                            MVP
                            • Oct 2004
                            • 4262

                            #43
                            Re: This is why NASCAR will always be viewed as a joke to some

                            Originally posted by mgoblue
                            on the Knauss topic, shouldn't Nascar do something instead of their current "suspension" where Knauss just can't be on site, but can still talk to his assistant and put his imprint on things? The temporary crew chief (I forget his name) even said that Knauss deserves credit, he created the setups, tweaks, etc. Shouldn't they have some "can't be involved with the team at all" rule during the suspension? Seems like the current suspension isn't tough enough.
                            I'm not sure they could do that. They could probably prevent communications but even that would be hard. They can't watch every team member 24 hours a day. You also have to understand that when the new crew chief says Knauss created the setups and tweaks, he could also just mean through the notes they have for every track. They don't start setups from scratch every race. They keep every setup and every tweak they made along with the results. These guys have been together 4 full years so Knauss' imprint is on everything they do by now, even when he's not there.

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