The Xbox360 is "maxed out."

[Altimus]

Re: The Xbox360 is "maxed out."

Doubt it, not yet.

I agree though that the PS3 does have more potential because of the exotic hardware but the question is will that potential be tapped? We see signs of it with Uncharted and KZ2 but there is still a long way to go.

At the same time PS3 has more restraints than the 360. Bottom line is it will be a wash and as of now either console is maxed.

[Pared]

Re: The Xbox360 is "maxed out."

I think it could be possible that they have tapped out the 360 for now GRAPHICALLY. The next thing these devs need to do is start to use the memory on both systems to actually show some form of intelligent AI. So far this gen, games to me across the board, seem like they have sometimes lacked sound AI.

I'd like to see a game developed with the AI and mechanics of everything as the selling point and graphics secondary. The graphics are satisfactory for me right now. It's the logic and under the hood stuff that really needs major improvement this gen of consoles IMO.

With the built in memory limitations, there is only so far they are gonna be able to push these games graphically. Now what they can do, is they can come up with cool effects to trick the eye, stuff like normal mapping and certain filters. Those (in my understanding) use less of the processing power than fully rendering textures, etc.

Everyone I've spoken to has indicated that these systems can't do the sort advanced AI that I think you're referring to.

They could all be lying though. I honestly think it's easier to sell someone on eye-candy graphics than solid AI... and that's the real reason the industry has not moved forward in this area.

[mgoblue]

Re: The Xbox360 is "maxed out."

Doubt it, not yet.

I agree though that the PS3 does have more potential because of the exotic hardware but the question is will that potential be tapped? We see signs of it with Uncharted and KZ2 but there is still a long way to go.

At the same time PS3 has more restraints than the 360. Bottom line is it will be a wash and as of now either console is maxed.

PS3 has more potential, but I doubt we'll really see that maxed out completely. By the end of this console era it'll be like Xbox/PS2...Xbox had more potential, but more companies coded for PS2 and ported to Xbox. With This gen it's vice versa, but I doubt you'll see the PS3 versions become way better than 360. By the time it could be an issue I think we'll have new systems.

Everyone I've spoken to has indicated that these systems can't do the sort advanced AI that I think you're referring to.

They could all be lying though. I honestly think it's easier to sell someone on eye-candy graphics than solid AI... and that's the real reason the industry has not moved forward in this area.

I honestly think AI's hard as well. Even in non-video game arenas it's not easy getting a robot to "think" like a human. Yes, graphics are way easier and way easier to sell to people, but the truly solid AI is just massively difficult to do. That's the next big leap IMO, eventually we'll get a few bigger breakthroughs in AI. Not sure when though, could be a ways off.

[Altimus]

Re: The Xbox360 is "maxed out."

PS3 has more potential, but I doubt we'll really see that maxed out completely. By the end of this console era it'll be like Xbox/PS2...Xbox had more potential, but more companies coded for PS2 and ported to Xbox. With This gen it's vice versa, but I doubt you'll see the PS3 versions become way better than 360. By the time it could be an issue I think we'll have new systems.



I honestly think AI's hard as well. Even in non-video game arenas it's not easy getting a robot to "think" like a human. Yes, graphics are way easier and way easier to sell to people, but the truly solid AI is just massively difficult to do. That's the next big leap IMO, eventually we'll get a few bigger breakthroughs in AI. Not sure when though, could be a ways off.

Yeah but the thing was multigames usually looked and ran better than the PS2.

Last gen PS2 had more and better exclusives while the Xbox had the better graphics.

[Altimus]

Re: The Xbox360 is "maxed out."

Everyone I've spoken to has indicated that these systems can't do the sort advanced AI that I think you're referring to.

They could all be lying though. I honestly think it's easier to sell someone on eye-candy graphics than solid AI... and that's the real reason the industry has not moved forward in this area.

I think it's too much strain to have the best of both worlds, just not enough processing power. Next generation could be the generation we get both.

[Flawless]

Re: The Xbox360 is "maxed out."

In regards to AI, Bungie's Lead AI Programmer says the next step for AI, is animation.

Eurogamer

Eurogamer: Where do you go from there? Obviously physics interaction has been a huge leap for AI, and it's had to become much more adaptive. What's the next big step change for game AI?

Damian Isla: It's funny, because in a lot of ways the next step for AI is animation. Which is to say that AI has developed to a point where a lot of the big problems that we're solving are not really AI problems at all, they're animation problems.

In the past, historically, AI has had only a very high level interaction with its own body. It has said, "go in this direction and play this animation", and hasn't really had much freedom to say, "this is how you play this animation, and this is how you move in this particular direction". What we need to see is a much greater integration of AI and animation, in order to deal with much more dynamic environments.

The example that I give to a lot of people is that we have yet to see an AI, or any kind of character in a videogame, that can walk up to a table and pick a pencil off the table. We literally don't know how to do that, because it's such an incredibly complicated process.

I have to get my hand just to the right place, I have to approach the pencil with the right shape of hand, I need to approach it from the correct trajectory... And lifting a pencil off the table is going to look completely different from lifting a bowling ball off the table! I'd have to position my entire body for that one!

In other words, picking something off the table is as much an AI problem as it is an animation problem. I have to communicate to my body how heavy I expect this thing to be, that kind of thing... So a lot of decision making goes into working out how to do physical actions.

We're really running up against that. We've been trying hire an animation engineer for the longest time, and the funny thing is that very few engineers want to do animation. Everybody wants to do AI - that's really surprising to me. I've been telling them, "no no, you think you want to do AI, but you really want to do animation!" - because these days, all the interesting AI problems are in animation, rather than AI.

Eurogamer: Is that kind of idea something we can do on the hardware we've got now, or will we have to wait for another console generation before we can start picking up pencils?

Damian Isla: I don't think it's a question of processing power, I think it's a matter of the development of our own ideas. I think we need to do some fairly fundamental scientific research into all of this stuff - for a start, how do we do it? Academics have been working on this for many years, and we've entered into a series of collaborations with academics to look at what we know about animation, and how we can synthesise animation out of simpler pieces.

It goes right down to the neurology of it. When I reach for the pencil, that's not my brain that's doing that, it's my spinal cord - or at least, my spinal cord as much as my brain. So how does the real brain actually solve these problems? We have to be thinking about all of this stuff.

[stiffarmleft]

Re: The Xbox360 is "maxed out."

In regards to AI, Bungie's Lead AI Programmer says the next step for AI, is animation.

Eurogamer

Interesting, game design is so fascinating to me. I think we often take for granted how complex this stuff is.

[Misfit]

Re: The Xbox360 is "maxed out."

I think it takes a long time for developers to fully exploit what a system can do. Just go back to other consoles and look at the titles released late in their life cycle. Back on the PSOne, anyone here ever play Vagrant Story? That game looked amazing when it came out and really shocked people. Another Square title, Final Fantasy XII, wowed people just a few years ago on an aging PS2. Okami is another game that comes to mind. And then on N64 we had Conker's Bad Fur Day. Just compare that game with Mario 64 and it's like night and day.

I don't think either the PS3 or 360 has been fully exploited. We've probably been given a better idea of the max potential of the 360 just because most third party developers create their engines on the 360 as opposed to the PS3. With Sony's machine we really only get to see its potential with the first party stuff (or the rare PS3 only third party games like MGS4).

[Moses Shuttlesworth]

Re: The Xbox360 is "maxed out."

I think two important facets that Sony was unable to unveil through the PS3 was the works of MGS4 and Killzone 2, which show superiority to that of the 360.

[luv_mist]

Re: The Xbox360 is "maxed out."

One thing that doesn't seem like it's being considered is the fact that the 360 came out of the gates with some easy programming gear that made it so much easier for developers to reach that plateau faster and worry about the quality. The complaints about the PS3 were so rampant compared to the 360. Another thing that needs to be observed is the development teams that both houses have. Sony's first-party games are solid. They have some very talents people on their end that know how to not only make the hardware sing but make very gripping games. It's all in what the development houses bring to the table.

I really hope that the intellect improves more and more. I like the article that was shown. Definitely looking forward to seeing what advances are made in gaming. By the way, how was the 360 maxed? Did they say what "maxed" the 360?

[Pared]

Re: The Xbox360 is "maxed out."

I think two important facets that Sony was unable to unveil through the PS3 was the works of MGS4 and Killzone 2, which show superiority to that of the 360.

Yeah but how long were those games in development?

[luv_mist]

Re: The Xbox360 is "maxed out."

I was just listening to a podcast put out by 1Up that they made in 2008 near the end. They were talking about the difference between Sony and Microsoft in the help of making games. Sony purposefully left the hardware to the different companies with no real help because they wanted the companies to understand the systems by themselves. I kind of like that thought process except that it takes too long for these companies to really grasp the full power of the system.

I do like the idea that Microsoft had by setting them up with some great support to get those games out as soon as possible. I think they're ahead because of that thought process. I'm really wondering if Sony can survive the full 10 year plan and be profitable. The years are flying by faster and faster, yet the games aren't as plentiful it seems. It's quite an interesting concept in the two approaches that both companies have taken. I'm curious as to what the perfect middle ground would be. If there is one thing that has me anticipating the next consoles coming out, it would be the way these two companies present their systems to these developers. It's the developers who sell the systems.......

[jmood88]

Re: The Xbox360 is "maxed out."

Apparently the company that owns Criterion (EA -- duh!) and the company itself don't agree on whether or not the Xbox 360 has been "maxed out." Speaking to Eurogamer, Criterion's technical director Richard Parr said, "That's proof that you're not the best ... it means you're out of ideas."

Dedicated Joystiq Biomass™ members will remember when, just three days ago, vice president of EA Europe Patrick Soderlund said, "I think that we've maxed out the 360 but we haven't maxed out the PS3." So, what is it, folks? Is the 360 already meeting its limits? Will the rumored new Xbox console of Fall 2010 help to assuage Mr. Soderlund's claims? Will Criterion get in a slapfight with EA Europe? We'll just have to wait and see.

http://www.joystiq.com/2009/06/13/criterion-thinks-if-youve-maxed-out-the-360-youre-not-trying/

[luv_mist]

Re: The Xbox360 is "maxed out."

WOW!! Good find. Very dumb for the same company to have conflicting views like that.

[bkfount]

Re: The Xbox360 is "maxed out."

lol..

EA (Crytek) says: PS3 is maxed out
then EA says: 360 is maxed out
now EA (Criterion) says: neither of them are maxed out

Whether the platform is maxed out or not depends on the definition you are using. Crytek and others are literally speaking about maxing out hardware specs. Then yes, even the ps3 has been maxed out by a few titles. However, Criterion was talking about always finding creative ways to do more. This is the company that got the beautiful Black to run on the ps2 near the end of last generation, so they kind of know what they're talking about..