Outsourcing IT jobs

[DaHokieBird]

Re: Outsourcing IT jobs

Hey, did any of you guys that graduated with an IT degree have an internship/co-op during college? I feel pretty lucky to have got one for this coming summer with a large financial company (who is paying me VERY well by the way!). I know this summer will be a good learning experience to see what exactly I want to do. I interviewed with two other companys, one that does systems for the Coast Guard and another that does systems for the US Government (it was called the GAO). I seriously contemplated those two, since I knew working for a company associated with the government is a "safer" job, but money talks, especially for a poor college student.

Quick question, what is all this certificiation about? I have never heard anyone talk of that before.

Thanks,
DaHokieBird

[aukevin]

Re: Outsourcing IT jobs

Hey, did any of you guys that graduated with an IT degree have an internship/co-op during college?

I co-oped during my undergrad. It helped a lot in experience. I remember my first day co-oping, I was totally lost. I've always wondered if I would have felt like that on my first day of my job after graduation had I not co-oped. Instead, I fit right in on my first day of work and didn't really have to go through any kind of post-college adjustment.

I didn't end up working for the company I co-oped for although I had the opportunity. Sometimes you can pretty much pencil yourself in a job at where you co-op after graduation, so that takes a lot of stress out of your final days at college.

The big thing for me was that co-oping added two years of experience to my job before I was even hired. That got me a higher starting salary than I believed I would have gotten if I hadn't co-oped.

[fishepa]

Re: Outsourcing IT jobs

Hey, did any of you guys that graduated with an IT degree have an internship/co-op during college? I feel pretty lucky to have got one for this coming summer with a large financial company (who is paying me VERY well by the way!). I know this summer will be a good learning experience to see what exactly I want to do. I interviewed with two other companys, one that does systems for the Coast Guard and another that does systems for the US Government (it was called the GAO). I seriously contemplated those two, since I knew working for a company associated with the government is a "safer" job, but money talks, especially for a poor college student.

Quick question, what is all this certificiation about? I have never heard anyone talk of that before.

Thanks,
DaHokieBird

I had a programming internship during my final year at Auburn, it was awful, I hated it. However, it was beneficial because I didn't waste any of my career being a programmer. The starting IT salary that Joeboo stated really depends on where you live. It's not that much down here in a city such as Birmingham, but also the cost of living is much less as well. It's all relative to where you live. To put things in perspective, since I started about 4 years ago I have doubled my salary. To find a good job you have to be in the right place at the right time.

[ExtremeGamer]

Re: Outsourcing IT jobs

Pay really depends on where you live and the cost of living. An average starting salary for IT guys in Pittsburgh is 40,000-50,000. It's lower for "break/fix" technicians though. I'm talking about software engineers, network engineers, systems administrators etc... I assume the starting salary in more expensive areas (ie: NY) is much higher. I honestly don't know where Pittsburgh ranks in that regard.

My only advice is to stay on top of things and after graduating, don't think the studying is finished. You still need to go out and get the necessary certifications (Microsoft - MCSE, MCSA, Cisco- CCNA, CCNE etc....). I know a lot of people aren't a fan of certifications and prefer real world experience, but there's no denying that additional cert's will get your foot in many extra doors - not to mention increase salary.

Like others have stated, attend job fairs in college and try to get an internship. If you can't get an internship, it's not the end of the world, but it certainly helps.

I snuck into IT, I don't have a degree or any schooling for it period. I was in the right place at the right time. Starting salary is about the same here in Cleveland, I started in the 36K range a few years ago, and make more than that now. Our range is 36-70 in my department. One thing is I've gotten burned out on it.

[mjb2124]

Re: Outsourcing IT jobs

Quick question, what is all this certificiation about? I have never heard anyone talk of that before.

Depends on what you're getting into. If you want to do networking, it's a good idea to get a CCNA (Cisco Certified Network Associate). Basically it's a test to show that you are an "expert" at configuring Cisco switches/routers etc...

If you want to do more systems administration, server administration type work, it's a good idea to get Microsoft cert's. MCSA is a Microsoft Certified Systems Administrator. This is a series of tests (maybe 4?) that shows you know what you're doing. An MCSE is the top of the ladder and is supposed to show you're one of the better guys out there.

Basically to make this as short as I can, it's something you can put after your name (ie: John Doe, MCSE) that says "Microsoft or Cisco says I'm really good at this".

[p_rushing]

Re: Outsourcing IT jobs

I didn't really have a co-op but I had a job working for the Research Department of the school for about 2 years. I updated the database when patent docs came in, made sure everything was working, fixed computer problems, etc. It was an extremely easy job but looked good on a resume.

You don't have to have a co-op, but you need things that show your leadership. Join clubs or groups in your major/school. Also sign up for interviews now, even if you don't want the job or know you won't get it. Practice will help you get the job you want.

[DaHokieBird]

Re: Outsourcing IT jobs

Thanks for the quick info about the certifications. I'll see what exactly I want to do and if those will be something I need later on. I know for a fact that I don't want to program at the beginning of my career! My internship this summer might have me doing some, but I can handle that.

My real dream is to work in Europe. I will graduate with a Global Business minor (it's really just a showy minor), but whatever. Even though I still have another year, all this news and the stuff my professors tell us about kinda scares me. I feel like I will have all the necessary skills and experience to get a good job, but the thought of it not being there stinks. Plus, I need a decent paying job to help finance my nice car!

Thanks,
DaHokieBird

[GBrushTWood]

Re: Outsourcing IT jobs

Let me get my 2 cents in.

I agree there are IT jobs out there for willing and skilled people. But on the real...outsourcing is a joke. Especially to the consumers. When Dell outsourced their support center a couple of years ago the customer complaint rose to like 150%.

No offense to Indians, but if your going to work for an American company and your majority of customers speak English then it should be a requirment to speak FLUENT english.

These companies need to stop! It's bad for the economy. It's bad for the consumers. And it's bad for majority of the American people. The only people that benifits is the rich owners that owns these companies. So the deadly cycle of 'The rich get richer and the poor don't get a f-cking thing' still lives on.

You seem to think that customer satisfaction is the top measure of importance for CEO's and CIO's. Lowering costs in the name of creating higher profit margins is the most important thing. End of story. No questions asked.

If you're a CEO and can get 75% of the productivity by outsourcing certain IT or programming positions to India at 10-20% of the cost, it's honestly a no brainer. To compound this, when your competitors are beginning to outsource, this results in savings on their IT or programming expenditures. These savings result in higher profit margins seen elsewhere, thus your competitors are suddenly making more money than your company. The choice is real simple then: outsource or your company gets pwned.

It sucks choad, but it is reality. I anticipate that American programming positions will continue to see the outsourcing threat as very dangerous over the next 10-15 years. From an IT perspective, I anticipate less of an impact in the relatively near future simply for one of the above poster's stated reasons (I.e. - it is unwise to hand over the entire "IT keys" so to speak to a firm sitting across the world. IT doesn't work like this).

What I expect to see are lower level dinky positions continuing to outsource (and keep in mind, outsourcing doesn't necessarily mean hiring some guys in India. It means moving from in-house personnel to an external organization taking over the job) in high-tech. For IT, this likely means help-desk support (as it kind of exists now), and any job whose sole purpose relies on highly specialized knowledge. If you have the ability to possess highly technical knowledge along with business skills, it will be difficult to imagine having more strategic positions being outsourced, at least in the near future (10-15 years). Of course, this could all change with some sort of invention that some guy thinks of which results in another paradigm shift.

[Dice]

Re: Outsourcing IT jobs

You seem to think that customer satisfaction is the top measure of importance for CEO's and CIO's. Lowering costs in the name of creating higher profit margins is the most important thing. End of story. No questions asked.

If you're a CEO and can get 75% of the productivity by outsourcing certain IT or programming positions to India at 10-20% of the cost, it's honestly a no brainer. To compound this, when your competitors are beginning to outsource, this results in savings on their IT or programming expenditures. These savings result in higher profit margins seen elsewhere, thus your competitors are suddenly making more money than your company. The choice is real simple then: outsource or your company gets pwned.

It sucks choad, but it is reality. I anticipate that American programming positions will continue to see the outsourcing threat as very dangerous over the next 10-15 years. From an IT perspective, I anticipate less of an impact in the relatively near future simply for one of the above poster's stated reasons (I.e. - it is unwise to hand over the entire "IT keys" so to speak to a firm sitting across the world. IT doesn't work like this).

What I expect to see are lower level dinky positions continuing to outsource (and keep in mind, outsourcing doesn't necessarily mean hiring some guys in India. It means moving from in-house personnel to an external organization taking over the job) in high-tech. For IT, this likely means help-desk support (as it kind of exists now), and any job whose sole purpose relies on highly specialized knowledge. If you have the ability to possess highly technical knowledge along with business skills, it will be difficult to imagine having more strategic positions being outsourced, at least in the near future (10-15 years). Of course, this could all change with some sort of invention that some guy thinks of which results in another paradigm shift.

You bring up some valid points. Especially on the issue where you stated that, 'Lowering costs in the name of creating higher profit margins is the most important thing.' This is true. That's one of the problems with a capitalistic society. BUT if you realistically look at it the consumers control the market. Unfortunately, there are not enough educated consumers and too many 'trendy' consumers which switch the power of the market back to these companies. Fact of the matter is if people don't buy your product your not going to do s*it. I still remember when Compaq was the #1 selling desktop back in the mid-90's. Then Compaq started slacking off on their terrible desktop hardware and people stopped buying Compaq and went to Dell. Now Dell rules the market. The comsumers made Dell the power they are now.

Now if these same people who complained about Dell's poor technical support service stopped buying Dell then I would predict that they would work at improving. Which will mean that the more viable option is to bring the technical support department back to the states. But unfortunatley, like I stated before, too many 'trendy' consumers are a majority of the market because these consumers who complained are the same ones buying new Dell machines for themselves or their company next year because Dell is the trend. All this 'Dude your getting a Dell' crap has infested the minds of the trendy consumer and will keep Dell at their status for quite sometime.

Consumers needs to take back the market. If you don't like Dell and want to do something about it then don't buy it. Then don't stop there, tell your friend, co-workers and the companies you work for or work with that Dell is crap. I'm willing to bet you Dell will listen once their profits take a dip.

[Jistic]

Re: Outsourcing IT jobs

I've been in IT for 10 years now. In the late 90's/early part of this decade I made a fortune. Then I was out of the industry for a few years, went into business myself, and even did some sales....

Well I'm back now. And the money is pretty dam good again. Like Bk said the jobs are out there, and the market is at it's best since the 90's tech boom when I could name my price.

But now you need to know more than just how to replace a hard drive or know some cryptic DOS commands. Learn the business side, Project management is HUGE. Now you need to know Tech and business, and development cycles is huge too.

[Jistic]

Re: Outsourcing IT jobs

You bring up some valid points. Especially on the issue where you stated that, 'Lowering costs in the name of creating higher profit margins is the most important thing.' This is true. That's one of the problems with a capitalistic society. BUT if you realistically look at it the consumers control the market. Unfortunately, there are not enough educated consumers and too many 'trendy' consumers which switch the power of the market back to these companies. Fact of the matter is if people don't buy your product your not going to do s*it. I still remember when Compaq was the #1 selling desktop back in the mid-90's. Then Compaq started slacking off on their terrible desktop hardware and people stopped buying Compaq and went to Dell. Now Dell rules the market. The comsumers made Dell the power they are now.

Now if these same people who complained about Dell's poor technical support service stopped buying Dell then I would predict that they would work at improving. Which will mean that the more viable option is to bring the technical support department back to the states. But unfortunatley, like I stated before, too many 'trendy' consumers are a majority of the market because these consumers who complained are the same ones buying new Dell machines for themselves or their company next year because Dell is the trend. All this 'Dude your getting a Dell' crap has infested the minds of the trendy consumer and will keep Dell at their status for quite sometime.

Consumers needs to take back the market. If you don't like Dell and want to do something about it then don't buy it. Then don't stop there, tell your friend, co-workers and the companies you work for or work with that Dell is crap. I'm willing to bet you Dell will listen once their profits take a dip.

It's starting to change now. People are getting more fed up with bad support. Just like they are getting fed up with fully automated voice support systems, press 1 for this 2 for that. That's why you're seeing commercials for Credit Card companies that actually let you talk to *gasp* a human!

I think offering good support will be a bigger selling point for all business. I know my company is HUGE on support. When I worked for Hewlett Packard that was our #1 goal. Even moreso than quality products was world class support. I don't know how they are now as I quit in '96. But back then we were stellar.

[ODogg]

Re: Outsourcing IT jobs

It's starting to change now. People are getting more fed up with bad support. Just like they are getting fed up with fully automated voice support systems, press 1 for this 2 for that. That's why you're seeing commercials for Credit Card companies that actually let you talk to *gasp* a human!

I think offering good support will be a bigger selling point for all business. I know my company is HUGE on support. When I worked for Hewlett Packard that was our #1 goal. Even moreso than quality products was world class support. I don't know how they are now as I quit in '96. But back then we were stellar.

I agree it is changing. Dell was forced to move most of their support system back into America because of dwindling satisfaction and customer outrage. As for those worried about being an IT graduate, i wouldn't worry too much, the jobs are out there but you must be willing to relocate. I've been in the IT/telecommunications sector since 1998 and although i've been laid off and had to relocate i've never hurt for a job for more than 6 to 8 months.

[Dice]

Re: Outsourcing IT jobs

I agree it is changing. Dell was forced to move most of their support system back into America because of dwindling satisfaction and customer outrage. As for those worried about being an IT graduate, i wouldn't worry too much, the jobs are out there but you must be willing to relocate. I've been in the IT/telecommunications sector since 1998 and although i've been laid off and had to relocate i've never hurt for a job for more than 6 to 8 months.

And I remebered when Dell did that. And not to say that there profits were hurting BUT they knew if they kepted on screwing over the consumer Dell was going to feel it in the near future.

I've been in IT for over 10 years and I've taken a lot of twist and turns in my career BUT fortunately I've never been the victim of outsourcing. If you know your stuff and can show credentials then if your a graduate getting in the buisness then you should be fine. Or if your in the industry and you know your stuff you should be straight.

But I still believe that outsourcing is bad for the economy.

[caseyd]

Re: Outsourcing IT jobs

I snuck into IT, I don't have a degree or any schooling for it period. I was in the right place at the right time. Starting salary is about the same here in Cleveland, I started in the 36K range a few years ago, and make more than that now. Our range is 36-70 in my department. One thing is I've gotten burned out on it.

Same here. Started at the low end of the totem pole while I was going for a Masters degree in Counseling (just as a way to pay the bills while going to school). Decided I liked IT better and worked my way up to Tech Support Manager. Company I was with in Phoenix went bankrupt and I was able to get a job with local government here in Prescott Valley AND get promoted to IT Director. It has been great. Government is stable. I don't have to worry every day if something is going to happen with my job. That being said, I actually outsource a couple of our functions (RPG programming and some of our web development) because it's cheaper. For the amount of stuff we need done in those areas, it's much easier to have a contractor do it for one amount instead of paying salary and benefits to someone. I would never even think about that for tech suppport or network admin though.

[GBrushTWood]

Re: Outsourcing IT jobs

Interesting that so many OS'ers work in IT. I didn't have any reason to think that was the case.

Getting back to the Dell example - I don't think you give Dell enough credit for becoming a market leader in desktop hardware. They are not where they are today because people simply consider them trendy. They are currently successful because they offer great prices to customers, and have a tremendously well-run organization which uses its own IT to beat competitors. I did a case study on Dell for an MIS class I took this past semester. They really out-thought, out-worked, and out-executed HP, Apple, Gateway, and all those big bastiches.

On an anecdotal level - I worked in front line IT support + server and anything else you can think of type work for my last 2 co-op jobs, and I have to agree with the sentiment that IT causes burnout. I didn't take one day of vacation for about 5 months, and I was just terribly tired and sick of doing the same ol' ****e every day. Because I was a salaried employee, my hours were very flexible. This meant staying late quite frequently to get work done.

Of course, if I didn't screw around all day on teh Intarweb, I probably could have gotten work done on time and not stayed late.

Looking towards the future - I accepted a position with Staples at their corporate headquarters in their enormous IS division. This is my 3rd co-op job. My work will be much different from my first two co-ops in that I will kinda be in a program manager role which focuses on change management between internal IS groups and other business units in the company. This is more of a businessy position rather than strictly a technical one.

Should be interesting, I hope (I anticipate being in lots of meetings). At the very least, it is trying something different within the 'IT realm'.