Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

[kingkilla56]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

I don't see how Finn is force sensitive. Almost felt like the movie confirmed he was not.

Spoiler

him holding his own looking like a Jedi versus Kylo was a red herring. Showing the difference between a non force user does against a sith versus what a force user does against the sith, Rey. Finns job there was to confirm he wasn't the hero in a lightsabers kind of way; Rey was that hero. Finn is the guns expert. Remember when he had the lightsaber at first, he picked up a blaster of a stormtrooper because that's his thing. He's not Jedi.

As for Kylo sensing him at the beginning of the movie, in retrospect I feel like Kylo was sensing Finn's inner turmoil and outright fear in that moment. Two things Kylo Ren knows a lot about since his whole character is about inner turmoil between dark and light as well as being full of fear. Don't think it had anything to do with the force.

[DonkeyJote]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

I think you're selling him short. He had a lot more to add to the film than that. You must have napped through some of it.

I mean, he was good in it, but as far as moving the plot goes, once the tie fighter goes down, he's pretty much done. He could actually die there, and it doesn't change the movie one bit. He's not a main character at all, imo, which is what a Han Solo comparison would imply.

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[alifeincomplete]

Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

He is



And he didn't.


I agree with both of you for the same reasons.

Spoiler

I'm not sure this would make much sense. The existing characterization of Darth Plagueis was wiped out by the EU purge so any facets of him that were canon are now no longer. The only stuff that's true now is what Palpatine says in ROTS and what little bit is mentioned in the Tarkin book, since that is in the new canon. No one alive in Episode 7 would know who he is since Anakin is told the story by Palpatine. It wouldn't make for a sound narrative twist to have him come out to one of the heroes and say, "I am... Darth Plagueis!" They wouldn't know who that is, nor would the audience. Do you think the average fan -- heck, the average fan who JUST watched Episode III -- would know who that is? No, I would wager they wouldn't. It wouldn't serve any thematic purpose to have him conceal his identity for a big reveal that no one would care about, in character or in the audience. It would be like Darth Vader saying, "No, I.... am Plo Koon!" A reveal is only powerful if the audience has buy-in. They won't buy-in to a character that gets mentioned twice in once scene in one movie, set seventy years earlier. He's dead, he played no role in the movies other than an off-hand mention to plant the idea in Anakin's head that you save people from dying, and he isn't coming back.

Related - what are the odds that Anakin comes back as a ghost?

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[Money99]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

I don't see how Finn is force sensitive. Almost felt like the movie confirmed he was not.

Spoiler

him holding his own looking like a Jedi versus Kylo was a red herring. Showing the difference between a non force user does against a sith versus what a force user does against the sith, Rey. Finns job there was to confirm he wasn't the hero in a lightsabers kind of way; Rey was that hero. Finn is the guns expert. Remember when he had the lightsaber at first, he picked up a blaster of a stormtrooper because that's his thing. He's not Jedi.

As for Kylo sensing him at the beginning of the movie, in retrospect I feel like Kylo was sensing Finn's inner turmoil and outright fear in that moment. Two things Kylo Ren knows a lot about since his whole character is about inner turmoil between dark and light as well as being full of fear. Don't think it had anything to do with the force.

That's precisely my understanding of Fin and the incident on Jakku(?) in the beginning.

Spoiler

Kylo sensed the doubt and uncertainty in Fin.
It's why he had such a hissy fit when he found out that Fin was the storm trooper responsible for Pao's escape.
He knew he should have addressed Fin on Jakku but that's probably when his 'good side' took over and convinced him to leave Fin be.
The killing of Han released any good that was left in him, so he'll no longer make mistakes like that again.

[55]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

On my way to see this the second time. This time in RealD 3D.

[Dogslax41]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

*pushes up glasses*

Spoiler

This really wouldn't make much sense. The existing characterization of Darth Plagueis was wiped out by the EU purge so any facets of him that were canon are now no longer. The only stuff that's true now is what Palpatine says in ROTS and what little bit is mentioned in the Tarkin book, since that is in the new canon. No one alive in Episode 7 would know who he is since Anakin is told the story by Palpatine. It wouldn't make for a sound narrative twist to have him come out to one of the heroes and say, "I am... Darth Plagueis!" They wouldn't know who that is, nor would the audience. Do you think the average fan -- heck, the average fan who JUST watched Episode III -- would know who that is? No, I would wager they wouldn't. It wouldn't serve any thematic purpose to have him conceal his identity for a big reveal that no one would care about, in character or in the audience. It would be like Darth Vader saying, "No, I.... am Plo Koon!" A reveal is only powerful if the audience has buy-in. They won't buy-in to a character that gets mentioned twice in once scene in one movie, set seventy years earlier. He's dead, he played no role in the movies other than an off-hand mention to plant the idea in Anakin's head that you save people from dying, and he isn't coming back.

Related - what are the odds that Anakin comes back as a ghost?

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Spoiler

He doesn't have to be called Darth Plagueis. Saying Snoke is Plagueis is akin to saying I think he is going to be revealed to be Sidious' former master that was foreshadowed in the prequels as a super powerful Sith. The one that the viewer will remember as the one responsible for creating Anakin.

Snoke looks ancient and he is obviously extremely powerful with the force. A dude that powerful and that old doesn't just appear in the galaxy without anyone force sensitive knowing unless he was keeping himself hidden, which would tie with the hologram projection from what looks like a tomb.

I don't think the reveal is going to be intended to shock casual fan. I think calling him Snoke in Ep 7 was to throw off hardcore fans and the shock reveal will be for them. Casual fan is going to be impacted just as much when they remind them that it's Sidious' former master that created life from the force, cheated death and was more powerful than the Emperor. Add to that the Emperor was known throughout the galaxy as Emperor Palpatine or Chancellor, he is never called it, but every hardcore fan knows him as Darth Sidious.

But for me two of the biggest allusions that Abrams did was when Ren says "The Supreme Leader is wise" in response to Han cautioning him and if you compare the middle portion of Snoke's theme song with the background music when Palpatine is telling Anakin the story they are almost identical.

[kt-od]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

Spoiler

He doesn't have to be called Darth Plagueis. Saying Snoke is Plagueis is akin to saying I think he is going to be revealed to be Sidious' former master that was foreshadowed in the prequels as a super powerful Sith. The one that the viewer will remember as the one responsible for creating Anakin.

Snoke looks ancient and he is obviously extremely powerful with the force. A dude that powerful and that old doesn't just appear in the galaxy without anyone force sensitive knowing unless he was keeping himself hidden, which would tie with the hologram projection from what looks like a tomb.

I don't think the reveal is going to be intended to shock casual fan. I think calling him Snoke in Ep 7 was to throw off hardcore fans and the shock reveal will be for them. Casual fan is going to be impacted just as much when they remind them that it's Sidious' former master that created life from the force, cheated death and was more powerful than the Emperor. Add to that the Emperor was known throughout the galaxy as Emperor Palpatine or Chancellor, he is never called it, but every hardcore fan knows him as Darth Sidious.

But for me two of the biggest allusions that Abrams did was when Ren says "The Supreme Leader is wise" in response to Han cautioning him and if you compare the middle portion of Snoke's theme song with the background music when Palpatine is telling Anakin the story they are almost identical.

Yep, I agree with this... and Snoke is clearly a Muun that's been through a rough battle. To me it's the only thing that makes sense. I can't wait to find out.

[Yeah...THAT Guy]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

Poe is Wedge though. Then again apparently the original plan was to kill him so who knows where they go from here.

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My guess is that he'll die in one of the other movies. He's important enough to Finn and Rey that it will hurt them, but not an important enough character for fans to be in an uproar about it.

Spoiler

He doesn't have to be called Darth Plagueis. Saying Snoke is Plagueis is akin to saying I think he is going to be revealed to be Sidious' former master that was foreshadowed in the prequels as a super powerful Sith. The one that the viewer will remember as the one responsible for creating Anakin.

Snoke looks ancient and he is obviously extremely powerful with the force. A dude that powerful and that old doesn't just appear in the galaxy without anyone force sensitive knowing unless he was keeping himself hidden, which would tie with the hologram projection from what looks like a tomb.

I don't think the reveal is going to be intended to shock casual fan. I think calling him Snoke in Ep 7 was to throw off hardcore fans and the shock reveal will be for them. Casual fan is going to be impacted just as much when they remind them that it's Sidious' former master that created life from the force, cheated death and was more powerful than the Emperor. Add to that the Emperor was known throughout the galaxy as Emperor Palpatine or Chancellor, he is never called it, but every hardcore fan knows him as Darth Sidious.

But for me two of the biggest allusions that Abrams did was when Ren says "The Supreme Leader is wise" in response to Han cautioning him and if you compare the middle portion of Snoke's theme song with the background music when Palpatine is telling Anakin the story they are almost identical.

Spoiler

I agree with the overall theory that Snoke could very well be Plageuis, but I'm not entirely sure about the bolded. Regarding looking "ancient", I think they could easily explain that away as some other horrific thing that happened to him that resulted in deformities such as burning in lava like Anakin or some other horrific accident. Regarding him obviously being extremely powerful, did he really do anything in this movie that showed he's extremely powerful, or is this just the assumption based on the fact that he's the leader? I think it's probably safe to say that he's very powerful, but I'm not sure he's necessarily some ancient Sith lord.

[Dogslax41]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

My guess is that he'll die in one of the other movies. He's important enough to Finn and Rey that it will hurt them, but not an important enough character for fans to be in an uproar about it.

Spoiler

I agree with the overall theory that Snoke could very well be Plageuis, but I'm not entirely sure about the bolded. Regarding looking "ancient", I think they could easily explain that away as some other horrific thing that happened to him that resulted in deformities such as burning in lava like Anakin or some other horrific accident. Regarding him obviously being extremely powerful, did he really do anything in this movie that showed he's extremely powerful, or is this just the assumption based on the fact that he's the leader? I think it's probably safe to say that he's very powerful, but I'm not sure he's necessarily some ancient Sith lord.

Spoiler

Serkis and Abrams have both said he is ancient, has knowledge of events leading up to episode 7 and is extremely powerful. Not to mention the words used in the novel version of the Force Awakens. “Kylo Ren, I watched the Galactic Empire rise, and then fall. The gullible prattle on about the triumph of truth and justice, of individualism and free will. As if such things were solid and real instead of simple subjective judgments. The historians have it all wrong. It was neither poor strategy nor arrogance that brought down the Empire.”

[Yeah...THAT Guy]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

Spoiler

Serkis and Abrams have both said he is ancient, has knowledge of events leading up to episode 7 and is extremely powerful. Not to mention the words used in the novel version of the Force Awakens. “Kylo Ren, I watched the Galactic Empire rise, and then fall. The gullible prattle on about the triumph of truth and justice, of individualism and free will. As if such things were solid and real instead of simple subjective judgments. The historians have it all wrong. It was neither poor strategy nor arrogance that brought down the Empire.”

Interesting info. Thanks!

Spoiler

At any rate, it's an interesting theory that definitely has some merit. I think I still lean towards Snoke =/= Plagueis though. I agree with one of the other posters that the reveal just wouldn't make much sense, and I also think that having Plagueis survive Palpatine's attack kinda cheapens Palpatine's character.

At any rate, I suspect we'll find out one way or another in the next movie.

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[alifeincomplete]

Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

Spoiler

He doesn't have to be called Darth Plagueis. Saying Snoke is Plagueis is akin to saying I think he is going to be revealed to be Sidious' former master that was foreshadowed in the prequels as a super powerful Sith. The one that the viewer will remember as the one responsible for creating Anakin.



Snoke looks ancient and he is obviously extremely powerful with the force. A dude that powerful and that old doesn't just appear in the galaxy without anyone force sensitive knowing unless he was keeping himself hidden, which would tie with the hologram projection from what looks like a tomb.



I don't think the reveal is going to be intended to shock casual fan. I think calling him Snoke in Ep 7 was to throw off hardcore fans and the shock reveal will be for them. Casual fan is going to be impacted just as much when they remind them that it's Sidious' former master that created life from the force, cheated death and was more powerful than the Emperor. Add to that the Emperor was known throughout the galaxy as Emperor Palpatine or Chancellor, he is never called it, but every hardcore fan knows him as Darth Sidious.



But for me two of the biggest allusions that Abrams did was when Ren says "The Supreme Leader is wise" in response to Han cautioning him and if you compare the middle portion of Snoke's theme song with the background music when Palpatine is telling Anakin the story they are almost identical.

Spoiler

I've heard this fan theory since the name Snoke was revealed. I don't think it holds any more credibility now than it did then. It reminds me of the people adamant that Sidious and Palpatine would be revealed to be different people in the prequels. It didn't pan out, and I'm confident that neither will this. Unfortunately, nothing short of Snoke saying "I am not Darth Plagueis" on-screen will stop this theory, but far be it from me to damper down the wild speculation. If it suits someone's head canon to think that he's Plagueis, more power to you -- just don't get upset at the Sequel Trilogy when he doesn't turn out to be who you want him to be. :-) It's also not canon that Plagueis created Anakin, although it is implied in the movie. Just as it is stated that Palpatine's master was named Darth Plagueis, by name. It wouldn't make sense for Snoke to tell Rey that he's the dead Emperor's former master from three-quarters of a century before she was born. The audience won't care. Heck, a lot of hardcore fans won't care because they reject the prequels and want the ST to distance itself from them. There's just no real power to that as a reveal because the average viewer won't remember him, and the majority of fans won't care.

Secondly, saying he's Snoke because he's described as being wise is grasping at straws. By that token, Yoda, Obi-Wan, and Anakin are all good candidates for being Darth Plagueis. The only bit of credence to give it is the musical hint in 7. That's it. Everything else is meaningless conjecture. Snoke doesn't look like a Muun, but it wouldn't make a difference if he was; Plagueis is no longer a Muun. That's not canon anymore since the whole book was thrown out. So I suppose that works in favor of the theory, haha. Lawrence Kasdan didn't even know who Plagueis was when a fan mentioned him at Celebration. I think the fans that want this to happen presume too much. We can read the James Luceno book until we're blue in the face, but we need to remember that it's published fan-fiction at this point, and is as relevant to the saga now as Heir to the Empire or the God-awful Glove of Darth Vader.

Third, Palpatine outright says that Darth Plagueis is dead.

My assumption is this: Darth Plagueis is, as Sidious said, thoroughly dead. Snoke is Snoke, ancient he may be, but that will be detailed in 8 and 9. My guess is that Snoke came from the Unknown Regions, beyond the reach of the known galaxy. Han and Leia clearly know who he is. Perhaps he, too, had Luke's trust, like Ben Solo did, and betrayed him in the destruction of Luke's new Jedi Order.

Lastly, it would thoroughly undercut Anakin's purpose in the story (to destroy the Sith) if one of them survived in secret the whole time. They've already said that Kylo Ren isn't a Sith, and I see no reason to believe that his master is either.

EDIT: Forgot something.

[kingkilla56]

Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

I mean, he was good in it, but as far as moving the plot goes, once the tie fighter goes down, he's pretty much done. He could actually die there, and it doesn't change the movie one bit. He's not a main character at all, imo, which is what a Han Solo comparison would imply.

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Are we out of spoiler talk? Can we just have at it now because I'm honestly tired of spoiler tagging.

Spoiler

Poe is Leia's number one agent. She trusted him over everyone else in the resistance to find the droid in secret. Poe is Leia's number one military weapon and number one pilot. He led a squad of fighters to save Hans *** on the green planet (I forget the name) then sends him to destroy the Death Star version 3.

So while he is obviously not a main POV character from jump street, I think the movie plants seeds that he will be important going forward. Also Han Solo has such a huge role in this film that Poe just couldn't fit into a larger role in this one. The fact that he was supposedly going to die in first edits but retained tells you they have plans for him going forward.

I don't think he Finn and Rey are gonna be clones of Han Leia and Luke though. I feel like Poe will be a leader of the resistance when/if Leia is incapacitated or killed.

[DonkeyJote]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

Spoiler

He doesn't have to be called Darth Plagueis. Saying Snoke is Plagueis is akin to saying I think he is going to be revealed to be Sidious' former master that was foreshadowed in the prequels as a super powerful Sith. The one that the viewer will remember as the one responsible for creating Anakin.

Snoke looks ancient and he is obviously extremely powerful with the force. A dude that powerful and that old doesn't just appear in the galaxy without anyone force sensitive knowing unless he was keeping himself hidden, which would tie with the hologram projection from what looks like a tomb.

I don't think the reveal is going to be intended to shock casual fan. I think calling him Snoke in Ep 7 was to throw off hardcore fans and the shock reveal will be for them. Casual fan is going to be impacted just as much when they remind them that it's Sidious' former master that created life from the force, cheated death and was more powerful than the Emperor. Add to that the Emperor was known throughout the galaxy as Emperor Palpatine or Chancellor, he is never called it, but every hardcore fan knows him as Darth Sidious.

But for me two of the biggest allusions that Abrams did was when Ren says "The Supreme Leader is wise" in response to Han cautioning him and if you compare the middle portion of Snoke's theme song with the background music when Palpatine is telling Anakin the story they are almost identical.

Where in any of the previous movies is it said that Plagueis created Anakin? Pretty sure that was just another book thing. I see no way that theory is true. And Palpatine is called Sidious, by the Trade Federation, Greivous, and Dooku when he still has a secret identity, and then again by Yoda when the facade is gone in Episode III.

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[DonkeyJote]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

Are we out of spoiler talk? Can we just have at it now because I'm honestly tired of spoiler tagging.

Spoiler

Poe is Leia's number one agent. She trusted him over everyone else in the resistance to find the droid in secret. Poe is Leia's number one military weapon and number one pilot. He led a squad of fighters to save Hans *** on the green planet (I forget the name) then sends him to destroy the Death Star version 3.

So while he is obviously not a main POV character from jump street, I think the movie plants seeds that he will be important going forward. Also Han Solo has such a huge role in this film that Poe just couldn't fit into a larger role in this one. The fact that he was supposedly going to die in first edits but retained tells you they have plans for him going forward.

I don't think he Finn and Rey are gonna be clones of Han Leia and Luke though. I feel like Poe will be a leader of the resistance when/if Leia is incapacitated or killed.

I figured most of the discussion on that topic was out of spoilers, and people who haven't seen the movie aren't coming into this thread. My vote would be to drop spoiler tags and add "Spoilers" to the thread title.

Just in case, though, on Poe:

Spoiler

He's important to the resistance, and is portrayed as important to the universe, but that doesn't mean he's important to the plot. That'd be like saying Admiral Akbar is a central character to RotJ. It wouldn't surprise me if they have bigger plans for Poe. The way he greats Finn is to show a friendship there, and the way they've marketed the film, they've had him grouped with John Boyega and Daisy Ridley (who both did an amazing job in the film) for interviews and appearances a few times. But I think it's a stretch to compare him to Han, who is the main character of the originals behind Luke.

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[Dogslax41]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

Where in any of the previous movies is it said that Plagueis created Anakin? Pretty sure that was just another book thing. I see no way that theory is true. And Palpatine is called Sidious, by the Trade Federation, Greivous, and Dooku when he still has a secret identity, and then again by Yoda when the facade is gone in Episode III.

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It's not specifically stated but it's stated that Plagueis can use the Force to influence the midi-chlorians to create life and Anakin was a virgin birth. So if the force created Anakin it's pretty much either they go the route that Plagueis being the only one ever mentioned to have that power did so or the force itself created him as a means to return balance to the force.