Avengers: End Game

[The 24th Letter]

Re: Avengers: End Game

Enjoyed every bit of this movie...if I didnt know about the 3 hour runtime before hand you couldn't have convinced me I was in the theater that long because I was so invested....

Crazy how far the superhero genre has come...

As much payoff as there was throughout though, I was really surprised-

Spoiler

Hulk didnt get his moment of redemption after catching that fade from Thanos in IW....

Expected a scene of him at least getting a combo in...lol

[Yeah...THAT Guy]

Re: Avengers: End Game

We are soo on the same page with our feelings on this movie. I highlighted your comments about the "inconsistencies."

Spoiler

So the whole time travel thing while playing Homage to the first movie was a turn off, but then the logic they were using to explain their "tom foolery" was completely absurd. I understand time travel isn't real so rules don't exist, so every movie is able to tell it's own version of time travel but their reasoning and theory really turned me off.



They make it a huge point to mentioned Time traveling doesn't work the way it does in movies like Back to the Future, hence why "killing baby thanos" is mute because their past can't be changed or altered. That idea is fine and usually results in a "multiple time-line theory." The idea that changing the past doesn't affect the future but created another time line where the events that caused the future don't happen. A lot of movies and theories usually end up using the Back to the Future theory or the multiple time line theory which is perfectly fine.



However the huge inconsistency occurs during Banner's conversation with the Sorceress Supreme. She clearly illustrates the issue; By removing the time stone from her "reality/timeline" it would cause a branching timeline where she wouldn't be able to fight off the forces of darkness.



Bruce's response to her is where the problem lies, Bruce tells her, they can use the Infinity stones "the Gauntlet" to trim all of the branches so the timeline returns to normal, i.e. trimming the branches so only ONE time line is remaining.



Because of that, the movie completely eliminates the idea of the multiple timeline theory. Their conclusion is all of those events are happening "on top, under, and around" each other in one timeline.



So Nebula killing herself doesn't matter, 2014 Thanos dying in 2023, Loki disappearing from the first Avenger Time line. These 3 specific things somewhat distort everything. And their explanation is, It's fine because they're all happening at once which makes NO SENSE.



It sort of irked me because i've found the way the Infinity War was filmed to be very instrumental. It felt like every scene in Infinity War was crafted for a specific reason, as if everything in that movie including it's story/script was purposely done with the idea that everything was meticulously crafted.



Yet, Endgame feels like they sort of went all over the place.

End Rant- Again still a great movie though.

Spoiler

Granted it’s still pretty hand wavey and probably illogical (but isn’t time travel kinda illogical to begin with?), but my takeaway from that scene with Bruce and the bald woman was that it wasn’t about keeping just one timeline, but rather saving the day in his timeline while keeping her specific timeline untouched. By returning the stone to her at the same moment that he took the stone from her, nothing would have changed in her specific timeline.

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[DieHardYankee26]

Re: Avengers: End Game

Spoilers really aren't that serious. Does it suck when somebody does it? Sure. But grand scheme of things, pretty low on the scale.

Even crazier to me because we pretty much know what's going to happen going in. It's not like there are really any crazy surprises. I can't think of anything that happened that you would've told me about before the movie and it would've affected my viewing.

[Blzer]

Re: Avengers: End Game

Spoiler

Granted it’s still pretty hand wavey and probably illogical (but isn’t time travel kinda illogical to begin with?), but my takeaway from that scene with Bruce and the bald woman was that it wasn’t about keeping just one timeline, but rather saving the day in his timeline while keeping her specific timeline untouched. By returning the stone to her at the same moment that he took the stone from her, nothing would have changed in her specific timeline.

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Okay, so here is where one of my sets of problems lay with this film (I'll be brief with it, because I have many). Maybe somebody can sort this out (my main question will be in bold, but the others spin off of the idea):

Spoiler

If they all went back to different timelines to take the stones in the first place, how did they send Steve back to one timeline to return all of them? How would Steve jump planet to planet in doing so? How does he manage to get the power stone back into its damaging force field, or the reality stone/Aether back into Jane? How does he return the soul stone if it appears in hand after sacrificing someone? I guess somehow he just gives it to Red Skull or something but if he returns it then can't he get something in return ('soul for a soul')?

Also, when they send Steve back and he doesn't warp back or whatever, then how does older Steve appear on the bench in their timeline? The whole idea regarding their time jumps is that they don't appear in their own timelines, but rather new ones. Why are we getting old Steve in their own timeline? That, in essence, is altering their own past to change their own future. This contradicts everything they said about what they would be able to do when time-traveling, otherwise they could have killed baby Thanos or whatever they said before.

This is just one of my many sets of questions I have when I relived the movie during my driving the other day. I had a lot of time to think about this stuff. I'm sure these answers might be somewhere online, but I have yet to bother looking anything up at all. To me, most of it is just the movie contradicting itself though. It can't have its cake and eat it, too.

As for spoiler talk, people know where I sit. The main thing here, TC, is that I don't want to have an expectation going into the film as a first time experience, whether it's correct or not. I'll just sit there and obsess over it if I do. The fact that it doesn't affect you is great, but you need to be understanding that others do get affected by it.

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: Avengers: End Game

Yeah, when it come to spoilers, it’s not THAT big of a deal to begin with, but that doesn’t mean that I’m ok with seeing or hearing them prior to seeing the movie.

It’s one thing if it’s on the Internet, because it’s real easy to avoid spoilers there. But if I’m out and about, and someone in the vicinity happens to be talking about it out loud(Like in the instance above), then no I’m not going to like that. Regardless if it’s 10 secs or 5 seconds of a 3, 4, 5, or 6 hr movie.

Luckily in this particular case, I was able to see the movie opening night and was able to avoid ANY type of news/spoilers/reviews by not coming to this thread in the 24-48 hrs prior to it coming out or getting on Social Media as well. But when Black Panther dropped, it was almost impossible to avoid not hearing any spoilers because people love to talk(especially in “The Community”)and spoil ****.

[TMagic]

Re: Avengers: End Game

What was there even to spoil in the black panther anyway?

"He wins" 🤷🏾*♂️[emoji23]

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: Avengers: End Game

What was there even to spoil in the black panther anyway?

"He wins" [emoji1741]*[emoji3603][emoji23]

I guess my point was there are people out there who like to go into a Movie and not hear anything about it unless it was something they seeked out themselves.

Shoot, there was nothing to spoil in Endgame technically because we all knew what was going to happen. Doesn’t mean we want to actually hear any spoilers prior to seeing the movie for ourselves.

Or am I wrong in my assessment?

[DamnYanks2]

Re: Avengers: End Game

I really hate to say this. But I didn't like it. Infinity War is an all time favorite. But I hated the direction they went in on this one. And it had nothing to do with Tony Stark.

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[hardcor2]

Re: Avengers: End Game

Spoiler

I understand the issue with time travel in this one. I didn't care for it at first until I took time to sit back and think on it some more and made my own theory. I know Bruce said the rules for time travel but remember this is the same Bruce who turned Scott into a baby and an old man. Maybe he doesn't have a good a grasp on the rules as he thinks. Maybe it actually is different timelines running simultaneously.

The way I see it is the MCU is set in timeline A. When they go back to retrieve the stones they jump through the quantum realm to timeline B. The bald lady (can't think of name) tells Bruce losing the stone messes up HER timeline which implies to me that there's multiple timelines. So by the end Gamora B is in Timeline A and Thanos A & B are both dead. Technically there's a Black Widow B in timeline B somewhere they could potentially bring to timeline A down the road.

As for Cap I think he returned all the stones properly (yes I have issues with the logistics of the Aether and what not but I can let it go). Next he went back to Peggy in timeline B and lived his life out there then jumped back to timeline A as an old man.

[tdawg3782]

Re: Avengers: End Game

Spoiler

I understand the issue with time travel in this one. I didn't care for it at first until I took time to sit back and think on it some more and made my own theory. I know Bruce said the rules for time travel but remember this is the same Bruce who turned Scott into a baby and an old man. Maybe he doesn't have a good a grasp on the rules as he thinks. Maybe it actually is different timelines running simultaneously.

The way I see it is the MCU is set in timeline A. When they go back to retrieve the stones they jump through the quantum realm to timeline B. The bald lady (can't think of name) tells Bruce losing the stone messes up HER timeline which implies to me that there's multiple timelines. So by the end Gamora B is in Timeline A and Thanos A & B are both dead. Technically there's a Black Widow B in timeline B somewhere they could potentially bring to timeline A down the road.

As for Cap I think he returned all the stones properly (yes I have issues with the logistics of the Aether and what not but I can let it go). Next he went back to Peggy in timeline B and lived his life out there then jumped back to timeline A as an old man.

100% agree with everything you said.

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[dsallupinyaarea]

Re: Avengers: End Game

Even crazier to me because we pretty much know what's going to happen going in. It's not like there are really any crazy surprises. I can't think of anything that happened that you would've told me about before the movie and it would've affected my viewing.

Yeah, that's what baffles me. It's the MCU. They're literally all the same plot.

Different hero.
Different glowy thing.
Different bad guy.
Hero wins.

This isn't exactly groundbreaking cinema.

That's what made IW so special. Something unexpected happened for a change.

Anti-spoiler culture is way out of hand and borderline childish.

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[Blzer]

Re: Avengers: End Game

Spoiler

I understand the issue with time travel in this one. I didn't care for it at first until I took time to sit back and think on it some more and made my own theory. I know Bruce said the rules for time travel but remember this is the same Bruce who turned Scott into a baby and an old man. Maybe he doesn't have a good a grasp on the rules as he thinks. Maybe it actually is different timelines running simultaneously.

The way I see it is the MCU is set in timeline A. When they go back to retrieve the stones they jump through the quantum realm to timeline B. The bald lady (can't think of name) tells Bruce losing the stone messes up HER timeline which implies to me that there's multiple timelines. So by the end Gamora B is in Timeline A and Thanos A & B are both dead. Technically there's a Black Widow B in timeline B somewhere they could potentially bring to timeline A down the road.

As for Cap I think he returned all the stones properly (yes I have issues with the logistics of the Aether and what not but I can let it go). Next he went back to Peggy in timeline B and lived his life out there then jumped back to timeline A as an old man.

Spoiler

I'm good with Steve returning the stuff in their form, those were just questions where I was like: "Well, I guess their rationale is that if they don't show it then they don't have to explain it to us," and to me that's lazy writing. Like I said though, I can accept it... but still am seeking whether there is a logical way those things would happen. Don't know about him warping back though since they're out of jumps (I'll get to that later as my next big quibble) and he obviously didn't return back with Bruce.

I think that there are multiple timelines, but I don't think it's just timelines A and B. They must have traveled to C, D, E, F, G, and H as well. Clint does when he retrieves his kid's glove, several of them go back to Manhattan and then Tony and Steve go to the seventies, Rhodes and Nebula go for the power stone, Rocket and Thor to Asgard, Clint and Nat to Vormir, and Steve back in the "past" to return all of the stones.

I think the only thing Bruce said to Baldy is that he could return the stone to her at that proper moment in time (as Cap likely did) so that all will be good again, re-correcting her timeline's path. He understands there are different timelines (again, hence the "killing Thanos as a baby" won't work). That absolutely is true too, otherwise we would see many paradoxes at play.

And yes, they could have still gotten a Black Widow from the past, just as Gamora is back in the MCU from a pre-GOTG time. They are out of jumps though, or whatever they're called. And besides using a finite number of jumps to raise the stakes for the film, I suppose another reason they wanted to do that was to close the window for future MCU movies to not go back in the past when there's something wrong and just "correct" it. This way, now that they're all used and the time stone is returned in the past (with the other one destroyed by Thanos), our forward time is now kind of in a state of permanence. Though now that Hank Pym is back from the dusting, he could probably whip up some more, but that's neither here nor there.

However, this brings up that next issue I wanted to talk about. If Scott explains that Pym is the only one who can create these jump thingamajigs, then why didn't they go back to a timeline moment before Pym was dusted to get more of them, and bring them back to their current timeline? This seemed to be the biggest concern for their heist(s) because they only had one shot at doing everything, but they could have provided themselves dozens of shots and had all the time in the world to reconcile their failed attempts. And you can't say that they can't bring things back; clearly they bring themselves back, plus the stones, and Hawkeye brought that glove back. So they can bring these items back as well, and Lang knows exactly where in SF these were made and when.

I don't know man, this wasn't even a reach either. The very, very moment that he said this, I thought this is where they were going with the story. I thought Stark or someone smart in the room would catch Lang being goofy and not thinking about this, we'd get a laugh about it, and then carry on while the film would provide other stake-raisers. Nope, they looked right past it. And I wasn't even trying to poke a hole in this bit, I was just trying to play along with what the film was going to do... and then it never did. It's not even like Michael Douglas was unavailable, in deaging form or otherwise.

While some of my concerns are just things where I question the writers on their contradicting on things, this one bugs me on a character intelligence level. The only way to look past it is to say nobody thought of it, but that one seems like a massive, massive wallop.

[Blzer]

Re: Avengers: End Game

Anti-spoiler culture is way out of hand and borderline childish.

Correction: people spoiling things for people is way out of hand and borderline childish.

I'm not saying YouTubers can't post spoiler impressions and critics can't post spoiler reviews, and that two people sitting on a park bench in public can't talk about the film as I pass by. I'm saying when somebody respectfully asks not to be spoiled and the person proceeds to sabotage your experience by spoiling you anyway (or if you shout to a crowd line that is about to see the film), that is a major low-blow. If [your] aim was to piss me off and think considerably less of you as an individual in my circle, then congratulations... [you] did it. Oh, and if you think that former scenario doesn't happen, try entering a high school.

I'm not new to this "anti-spoiler" camp, and honestly for me it never started with movies. For me, it started with sports. It's 12:15 AM while I'm typing right now, and do you know what I'm doing? Streaming two baseball games on my laptop and watching the Giants on my DVR. These are games I couldn't catch earlier today, and I intend on getting the front and back of them in their full glory. If I accidentally run across one of the three scores I'm watching on a bottom-line sports ticker or out-of-town scoreboard, I'm going to turn off that game. I'll be upset at myself for running into it, but I won't blame anybody because it wasn't exactly their fault that I caught it. However, I also see no use in experiencing something whose outcome I already know about. I'll still check out the highlights and see fantasy impact and such, but my experience was destroyed from the result.

I'm happy for others that they don't have this issue, but I ask that you be considerate for others who do. We are courteous enough on OS to post spoiler tags, and that is a genuinely noble thing that we carry through. There is just nothing earned by telling somebody something that they don't want to hear, though.

[DieHardYankee26]

Re: Avengers: End Game

Blzer walking through AMC:

Spoiler

I see where you're coming from, I try to protect spoilers when possible, Marvel movies in particular just aren't about plot twists, it's about visual spectacle so unless someone showed me a scene, it wouldn't make a difference personally. It's more of a principle issue with you.

[Yeah...THAT Guy]

Avengers: End Game

Even crazier to me because we pretty much know what's going to happen going in. It's not like there are really any crazy surprises. I can't think of anything that happened that you would've told me about before the movie and it would've affected my viewing.

Spoiler

I hadn’t watched meant of the trailers so I don’t know if this was expected the whole time but when they killed present day Thanos like 10 minutes in, I was like “Was I wrong about what this movie is about?”

I feel stupid in retrospect because I knew time travel was coming but just didn’t realize that it would mean fighting a past version of Thanos

Edit: Hope I didn’t just spoil anything. I’m awake way before I should be and was too tired to remember to close the spoiler tags lol
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