Interesting; Concerning the Next Gen Consoles.

[NovaStar]

"Valve's Newell warns of next-gen crisis
Valve head-honcho Gabe Newell has warned that few people appreciate the problems faced for developers with the next generation of consoles.
The use of multi-core processors in PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360 may prove a stumbling block to developers hoping to get the best out of the new machines.

"Technologically, I think every game developer should be terrified of the next generation of processors. Your existing code, you can just throw it away. It's not going to be helpful in creating next generation game titles," Newell said. "Most of the problems of getting these systems running on these multicore processors are not solved. They are doctoral theses, not known implementation problems. So it's not even clear that over the lifespan of these next generation systems that they will be solved problems. The amount of time it takes to get a good multicore engine running, the Xbox 360 might not even be on the market any longer. That should scare the crap out of everybody."

He believes that many competent software engineers will struggle to write efficient code for the new systems, with many falling behind in the industry.

"Really good engineers are going to be much more valuable and engineers who used to be valuable writing game code in the previous generation may end up becoming thorns in the side of key programmers who can write multi-core game code," he continued.

The Valve boss also took a swipe at the hyperbole of console manufactures over which console is the most powerful. He believes that until we've seen optimised code running on the next-generation consoles it is not going to be clear who will be the winner in the silicon horsepower competition.

"Statements about 'Oh, the PS3 is going to be twice as fast as an Xbox 360' are totally meaningless," he said. "It means nothing. It's surprising that game customers don't realize how it treats them like idiots. The assumption is that you're going to swallow that kind of system, when in fact there's no code that has been run on both of those architectures that is anything close to a realistic proxy for game performance. So to make a statement like that, I'm worried for the customers. And that we view customers as complete morons that will never catch on and that we're lying to them all the time. That's a problem because in the long run, it will have an impact on our sales."

Source: Next Generation

[gooberstabone]

Re: Interesting; Concerning the Next Gen Consoles.

Who is this guy?

I don't know if he has any hidden agenda or anything, but that certainly makes me stop and think.

This is just one more reason for me to hold off buying a next-gen console for awhile.

This is an interesting quote from above: "...in fact there's no code that has been run on both of those architectures that is anything close to a realistic proxy for game performance."

So basically we have no clue as to what the next-gen is capable of, and really, neither do the programmers.

[NovaStar]

Re: Interesting; Concerning the Next Gen Consoles.

Who is this guy?

I don't know if he has any hidden agenda or anything, but that certainly makes me stop and think.

This is just one more reason for me to hold off buying a next-gen console for awhile.

This is an interesting quote from above: "...in fact there's no code that has been run on both of those architectures that is anything close to a realistic proxy for game performance."

So basically we have no clue as to what the next-gen is capable of, and really, neither do the programmers.

My concerns exactly! It makes me really curious as to how the 360 Madden will play or anything else for that matter. But, I find it hard to believe that the new processors can pose such a problem to programmers, we will see. I am so curious now to see how the next generation madden stands up to the proposed VC/Legends game as far as gameplay goes.

[gooberstabone]

Re: Interesting; Concerning the Next Gen Consoles.

My concerns exactly! It makes me really curious as to how the 360 Madden will play or anything else for that matter. But, I find it hard to believe that the new processors can pose such a problem to programmers, we will see. I am so curious now to see how the next generation madden stands up to the proposed VC/Legends game as far as gameplay goes.

I tend to believe this guy for whatever reason. And my feelings are that the launch/ first few waves of next-gen titles will (with very few exceptions) look and play like games that could've been developed for this generation if they'd have milked the systems for another couple of years.

I'll wait, thank you.

[Flawless]

Re: Interesting; Concerning the Next Gen Consoles.

Your existing code, you can just throw it away. It's not going to be helpful in creating next generation game titles

Nah, really Gabe. Everybody knows this already.

Good compilers and development tools can over come the difficulties for writting code on these next-gen consoles, which is what Microsoft and Sony is dumping millions into. 95% of the developers that are complaining are PC developers. There's no doubt that it's going to take developers a couple of years to grasp the architectures of these new consoles, and the first games that actually use these multi-core CPU's, won't be until 2006. Samething with this gen's consoles, it took developers awhile to actually push the hardware. Let me hear from somebody else that releases more than one game every 5 years.

I also think Gabe is mad, because their Source Engine they spent years coding is going to be a pain to port to these consoles, since it's not multi-threaded and that's probably the reason alot of people are licensing Epic's Unreal Engine 3.

It's surprising that game customers don't realize how it treats them like idiots. And that we view customers as complete morons that will never catch on and that we're lying to them all the time.

:y4:

That's funny comming from Valve.

[Jistic]

Re: Interesting; Concerning the Next Gen Consoles.

I think he's a whiner. Suck it up and make some good games sissy boy!

[gooberstabone]

Re: Interesting; Concerning the Next Gen Consoles.

Nah, really Gabe. Everybody knows this already.

Good compilers and development tools can over come the difficulties for writting code on these next-gen consoles, which is what Microsoft and Sony is dumping millions into. 95% of the developers that are complaining are PC developers. There's no doubt that it's going to take developers a couple of years to grasp the architectures of these new consoles, and the first games that actually use these multi-core CPU's, won't be until 2006. Samething with this gen's consoles, it took developers awhile to actually push the hardware. Let me hear from somebody else that releases more than one game every 5 years.

I also think Gabe is mad, because their Source Engine they spent years coding is going to be a pain to port to these consoles, since it's not multi-threaded and that's probably the reason alot of people are licensing Epic's Unreal Engine 3.



:y4:

That's funny comming from Valve.

Flawless, from all your posts (which I appreciate) it seems like you're in the tank for these new consoles for good or for bad.

But like you said, "There's no doubt that it's going to take developers a couple of years to grasp the architectures of these new consoles, and the first games that actually use these multi-core CPU's, won't be until 2006."

2006 at best... We always here, "we've only scratched the surface of using all of the power of the [insert console here]..." They never utilize the system's full capabilities. That's the developers fault I guess. Too busy trying to rush games out to make money (like yearly sports games) instead of taking more time to develop more in-depth games.

What do you think?

[mgoblue]

Re: Interesting; Concerning the Next Gen Consoles.

2006 at best... We always here, "we've only scratched the surface of using all of the power of the [insert console here]..." They never utilize the system's full capabilities. That's the developers fault I guess. Too busy trying to rush games out to make money (like yearly sports games) instead of taking more time to develop more in-depth games.

What do you think?

perhaps, but you try and tell EA to make Madden every other year...tell that to people here, i'm sure they'd like if Madden didn't release this year. No way does EA not sell Madden every year, it's like printing money.

Sports games are stuck in that yearly cycle because that's how the leagues are, don't think there's any way around it. With other sports (boxing for one) they do have a 2 year cycle, same with the street games...

[fishepa]

Re: Interesting; Concerning the Next Gen Consoles.

I think he's a whiner. Suck it up and make some good games sissy boy!

That is exactly what I was going to post. What a crybaby...

[gooberstabone]

Re: Interesting; Concerning the Next Gen Consoles.

perhaps, but you try and tell EA to make Madden every other year...tell that to people here, i'm sure they'd like if Madden didn't release this year. No way does EA not sell Madden every year, it's like printing money.

Sports games are stuck in that yearly cycle because that's how the leagues are, don't think there's any way around it. With other sports (boxing for one) they do have a 2 year cycle, same with the street games...

It may not be fiscally viable, or whatever, but the way I'd like to see it is this:

Come out with the game (say football) for $50.
Next year come out with a roster update disk for $15-$20
Year after that, come out with another $50 game that has been 2 years in the making that plays much better, and has a lot more features than the first $50 game.

Rinse, and repeat...

[luv_mist]

Re: Interesting; Concerning the Next Gen Consoles.

It may not be fiscally viable, or whatever, but the way I'd like to see it is this:

Come out with the game (say football) for $50.
Next year come out with a roster update disk for $15-$20
Year after that, come out with another $50 game that has been 2 years in the making that plays much better, and has a lot more features than the first $50 game.

Rinse, and repeat...

I feel that those types of gameplans would bring about more creativity and games similar to what we see in NBA 06. Honestly, I really hate the complaining from those who make quick excuses when they see hard times ahead. Just learn the concepts, step up the knowledge, and work for the bucks. I'm curious to know, what games did Valve develop/publish? Just curious. Don't want to speak too quick before I honestly understand everthing....

[The C]

Re: Interesting; Concerning the Next Gen Consoles.

Who is this guy?

He is, I guess, the head of Value. The company that made Half-life, and Half-life 2.

[The GIGGAS]

Re: Interesting; Concerning the Next Gen Consoles.

He is, I guess, the head of Value. The company that made Half-life, and Half-life 2.

No, if I remember right, Valve only distributed the game.

[b_assassin]

Re: Interesting; Concerning the Next Gen Consoles.

No, if I remember right, Valve only distributed the game.

I'm pretty sure Valve developed Half-Life and Half-Life 2. They did have a publishing agreement with Vivendi, but that relationship ended some months ago (badly it sounds).

As far as Gabe's comments, I would tend to agree with him that we are being mislead about the capabilities of the next-gen. Or, at least, the capability of developers to tap into their potential...

Of course, considering he is a PC developer, I can see him having an axe to grind.

I think I'll withhold judgement until I see some stuff actually running on the final hardware.

[NovaStar]

Re: Interesting; Concerning the Next Gen Consoles.

Are we all in agreement then that this generation of consoles were fully tapped, or fully utilized? or is there some more juice left in the systems. If they were not fully tapped in what? 5yrs, who is to say that the next generation consoles won't reach their full programming potential as well until say 5 or 6 years down the road? I mean are we just sheep being fatted for another fleecing?