Six Days in Fallujah

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  • Hooe
    Hall Of Fame
    • Aug 2002
    • 21554

    #16
    Re: Six Days in Fallujah

    Originally posted by canes21
    You practically just described every single piece of media about any war. They all bend the truth for a variety of purposes. There is a reason the saying "History is written by the victors" exists. I doubt there is a single historical record of anything that is 100% accurate as to what happened. Even events that have happened in our lifetimes are skewed when retold because people are always going to be biased whether intentional or not.
    You raise a valid point here which I agree with - all media is political. However, where we disagree is that I think that accepting that is all the more reason to analyze and criticize the values of any given work.

    The AAA video game industry in particular has a problem where it wants to pretend the games its releases aren't political texts; rather the big companies pretend their products are mere disposable consumer products, not art to be discussed and analyzed, in a weak attempt to blanket shield themselves from informed criticism and tough questions.

    Ubisoft in particular is one of the the biggest offenders of this idea recently, what with The Division very openly and loudly supporting the 2nd Amendment in its fiction to justify the rampant use and presence of automatic weapons and military equipment in real-world US cities, Far Cry 5 lifting a MAGA-adjacent middle American town in which to set its story, and Tom Clancy's Elite Squad co-opting raised-fist imagery (commonly associated with black protest movements in the United States) for its bad-guy organization (albeit this has since been removed after a lot of obvious and justified criticism). Ubisoft will tell you til they are blue in the face that their games aren't political whatsoever, yet they continue to lift political imagery and real-world discourse to give their games an air of authenticity so they sell more copies. It's entirely disingenuous, and the only reason they do it is because they don't want the uncomfortable conversation, they just want you to give them your money, shoot the bad guys without thinking about it, and buy the in-game cosmetics to look cool with your friends.

    Six Days In Fallujah has the same problem as those Ubisoft games, but to a greater degree. It directly engages with political ideas far more directly than any Call Of Duty, Battlefield, or any Ubisoft game by using the real-world setting and events of an actual United States military operation to lend authenticity to its action. However, it irresponsibly omits any uncomfortable part of that history which is inconvenient to their making as much money as possible, so much so that the story of their nonfiction game is arguably an outright lie. That is a legitimate problem, it deserves calling out, and it is not just uninformed "hating" or whatever.

    We simply live in an era where everyone wants to find controversy in everything for whatever reason. If someone simply disagrees with someone or something they will go out of their way to find anything they can to try and bring that thing/person down a notch if they can.
    Informed criticism is a valid response to a political text. Any work of art is a political text. Video games are works of art. Since video games are art and all art is political, all games are political texts. Therefore, informed criticism about video games is valid.

    Rather than just dismiss critics as "haters" or "just looking to make controversy", we should be more willing to engage with problematic beliefs, so we can address them and fix them. We'd all be better off for it if we would just listen for a second.

    In this thread I've got people insulting my manhood, my intelligence, and accusing me of hating my country because I relayed some verified facts about a real-world event which made them uncomfortable. Why is that okay, but me identifying the problematic value set promoted by a piece of media as problematic not okay? How do you begin to conclude that I, the person complaining about the problematic thing, am the one who is wrong here?
    Last edited by Hooe; 03-29-2021, 06:46 PM.

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    • canes21
      Hall Of Fame
      • Sep 2008
      • 22910

      #17
      Re: Six Days in Fallujah

      I'll try to keep my response simple. You and I clearly view video games and most media in very different lights. The reason myself and others like me couldn't care less about the issues you raise is because we don't view video games as anything more than entertainment. While you see MAGA in Far Cry 5, I see a parody of American culture that is just there for entertainment purposes. While you see Unisoft trying to make a BLM-like villain, I just see them taking a common symbol and using it for their bad guy and that's it.

      With CoD, BF, or this game, I don't look at them and critically think about what is authentic and what is being twisted. All I look for is does it offer what I want from entertainment, specifically video games, and that is engaging and fun gameplay.

      If they use real life influences to make some parts feel more authentic, that's fine, but it doesn't automatically make the game some form of art where we need to have a deep dive down the political imagery of the game.

      While you say the developers of these games are using a weak argument to avoid criticism, I see it the opposite. I see it as a very valid argument because I see the games in the light of that weak argument. To me they are not political statements(generally). They are just forms of entertainment that draw inspiration from real life events because why wouldn't they?

      Edit: I'll use an example of my own work. I create missions for myself and my group in ARMA 3. Every single thing I ever make is inspired by some real event that usually involved the US military. None of my missions have any sort of political motivations behind them, I simply draw inspiration from real world events to have a scenario that is more beleivable/engaging/etc.

      When I create a tropical guerilla faction that is inspired by Cuban revolutionaries, my mission isn't some anti-communism political form of art. It's simply a mission where revolutionaries are trying to overthrow a government and you're tasked with stopping them. While I'm not saying some of these devs aren't politically motivated at times, I'm simply saying for gamers like myself, we don't care to think about the politics surrounding these games because we only play them to shoot computer generated images and have fun.

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      Last edited by canes21; 03-29-2021, 08:45 PM.
      “No one is more hated than he who speaks the truth.”


      ― Plato

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      • peter42O
        MVP
        • May 2018
        • 1991

        #18
        Re: Six Days in Fallujah

        No interest in the game whatsoever as it's not for me but watching the video of the map changing every time you play it is pretty damn cool.

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        • Picci
          MVP
          • Feb 2003
          • 4517

          #19
          Re: Six Days in Fallujah

          I guess I should further explain a response to CM Hooe who I've respected in the years of his presence on these forums, the criticisms from my side without getting into politics.

          From what I've heard where its origins are - This is like a CoD game. CoD sells and gaming publishers looking for new ideas got a pitch from the soldiers about their experiences in the Fallujah battle. These vets are now looking to make money. They took orders in life and death situations and had to carry out their duty. Their whole purpose was to make money, not make political statements. No need to lambast whether its accurate or not. It's a game that may sell well because of it's CoD similarities and if more GI's can get $$$$ for help creating wartime gaming experiences, let it be.

          I also want to say, I hope they're no more wars. It's horror's should be cemented in mankind's minds for ever.

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          • bigbob
            MVP
            • Sep 2007
            • 10471

            #20
            Re: Six Days in Fallujah

            I completely disagree with Hooes opinion, but to say he hates America? Come on, now. When someone states facts, they hate a country? Just because I do not have a problem with said war crimes that were committed does not mean it was okay for them to be committed. I live by a very toxic thought process.. If it does not effect me, I do not care. Fortunately, there are people out there that do care who can make change that I do not care enough about to make.

            That said.. I cannot wait for this game. It will not be a day one buy (because I cannot keep buying games to add to my backlog, when in five years when I try and buy it, it will be cheaper), but it feels different than any other shooter I have played, so I hope it is successful.

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            • dickey1331
              Everyday is Faceurary!
              • Sep 2009
              • 14285

              #21
              Re: Six Days in Fallujah

              I dont know much about this game or why the controversy is such a big deal but the fact game journalist dont like it makes me want to buy it.
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              • Cusefan
                Earlwolfx on XBL
                • Oct 2003
                • 9820

                #22
                Re: Six Days in Fallujah

                CM's arguments are all valid, but it's nothing new. I don't play video games with morality in mind. When I play Heart of Iron IV, the most fun is playing as Germany and trying to conquer the world. My favorite FPS has always been Battlefield: Vietnam, despite the fact that America was certainly not the good guys there.

                I'll judge the game based on its merits, which is probably not a good thing for the developer, because I didn't really like what I saw. A realistic game based on Fallujah would piss people off, because most of the injuries and fatalities Americans has were due to ambushes. People would throw their controller at their TV after they got shot in the back or blown up by an IED for the 20th time.
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                • PVarck31
                  Moderator
                  • Jan 2003
                  • 16869

                  #23
                  Re: Six Days in Fallujah

                  Originally posted by dickey1331
                  I dont know much about this game or why the controversy is such a big deal but the fact game journalist dont like it makes me want to buy it.
                  When IGN was demoing Modern Warfare before it came out, one of the journalists said she wished she could play through the campaign without guns.

                  Umm, It's Call of Freakin Duty!

                  And nobody makes you play it. If you have a moral stance on a game, then just don't play it. I can respect that. But they were talking about how it's too real, and shouldn't be this real, and stuff like that. I mean WTF? Come on now.
                  Last edited by PVarck31; 04-06-2021, 03:42 AM.

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                  • Hooe
                    Hall Of Fame
                    • Aug 2002
                    • 21554

                    #24
                    Re: Six Days in Fallujah

                    Originally posted by PVarck31
                    When IGN was demoing Modern Warfare before it came out, one of the journalists said she wished she could play through the campaign without guns.

                    Umm, It's Call of Freakin Duty!

                    And nobody makes you play it. If you have a moral stance on a game, then just don't play it. I can respect that. But they were talking about how it's too real, and shouldn't be this real, and stuff like that. I mean WTF? Come on now.
                    See, the stuff I'm more concerned about with Six Days In Fallujah has nothing to do with the use of guns; it's a military shooting game, of course it has guns. The use of guns or even the mere presence of violence as a way to resolve conflict in a video game doesn't automatically make it morally questionable by default, and just because a game is morally questionable doesn't mean it should be blacklisted. I've played way too much DOOM and Mortal Kombat to ever argue that lol.

                    What I am concerned with is more specific things which are more directly applicable to the real world. For example, Modern Warfare 2019's story promotes the use of violent interrogation, no-knock raids, and many other questionable military tactics generally summarized by the phrase "might makes right". Every single time a good guy (specifically an American or British military operator) in that game's story takes a morally grey action such as those listed above, the action is rewarded with in-game success and the story progresses. The only exception is when an allied NPC uses a chemical weapon; that is where the line is drawn in the value set Modern Warfare 2019 promotes.

                    YouTuber Jacob Gellar authored an excellent long-form editorial video about Modern Warfare 2019 going into more detail about the themes and values the game promotes.

                    My point is so strongly presenting the criticisms of Six Days In Fallujah that many others have offered is simple: I don't think it's asking too much for us to be more aware of what ideas the story and lore of a video game is introducing and promoting, and I think we should more strongly criticize and question developers that make games which promote problematic ideas. Play whatever game you want, just be aware of what you're playing.

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                    • canes21
                      Hall Of Fame
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 22910

                      #25
                      Re: Six Days in Fallujah

                      Is it really promoting these things just because you include them? Do we think Activision is trying to convince us all that torture and no-knock raids are the way to go?

                      This reminds me of how people made a big deal out of the GTA V torture scene like it was going to create a generation of serial killers.

                      I'm not trying to tell you you're completely wrong, I'm just trying to present the other side to continue to drive the conversation.

                      I see where you're coming from with some of your points, I just think you're almost looking into things too deep and trying to find narratives and whatnot that really aren't there, not intentionally.

                      I don't think I possess some magic ability to separate games from reality. I think the average gamer can do that no problem. I think that's why we don't see mass hysteria over some of the points you bring up. The average gamer only uses CoD for entertainment purposes. Me and the other average gamers don't go into the game and get brainwashed into believing no-knock raids are perfectly fine. I would wager the vast majority of the people who played that mission never thought about no-knocks being used in real life. All of their attention was just on simply enjoying the gameplay.

                      We don't think GTA promotes a life of crime do we?

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                      “No one is more hated than he who speaks the truth.”


                      ― Plato

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                      • AUChase
                        Hall Of Fame
                        • Jul 2008
                        • 19403

                        #26
                        Re: Six Days in Fallujah

                        The truth for me is that gaming is mostly a sit down, crack open a beer, and unwind after a long day of work and helping my kids navigate life thing. If it ever reaches the point where I start questioning the motives or messaging of every developer then it’s not something I’ll be interested in doing anymore and I think that is true for a lot of other people. I don’t know these people personally nor have I had a conversation with any of them so it doesn’t even seem right or worth the effort.

                        I guess it may seems a little hypocritical considering I can't stand some people in video game journalism like Jason Schreier and I've never met him either, but that's just how it is for me.

                        I do not think most people who played the London House Raid mission in MW 2019 came away with a thought like “wow no knock raids (warrants if we’re being honest here) are a good thing and we should keep utilizing them.” They may have had a reaction to other aspects of the mission like killing an innocent civilian, but the concept of no-knock warrants probably isn’t on anyone’s radar. I just don’t think Activision or IW was seeking to send a message about them or to promote them positively.

                        If I’m sitting down to use my brain I would probably pick something like Crusader Kings and not a first person shooter like Modern Warfare.
                        Last edited by AUChase; 04-07-2021, 01:20 PM. Reason: My grammar sucks and I keep finding errors

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                        • canes21
                          Hall Of Fame
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 22910

                          #27
                          Re: Six Days in Fallujah

                          Originally posted by AUChase
                          The truth for me is that gaming is mostly a sit down, crack open a beer, and unwind after a long day of work and helping my kids navigate life thing. If it ever reaches the point where I start questioning the motives or messaging of every developer then it’s not something I’ll be interested in doing anymore and I think that is true for a lot of other people. I don’t know these people personally nor have I had a conversation with any of them so it doesn’t even seem right or worth the effort.

                          I guess it may seems a little hypocritical considering I can't stand some people in video game journalism like Jason Schreier and I've never met him either, but that's just how it is for me.

                          I do not think most people who played the London House Raid mission in MW 2019 came away with a thought like “wow no knock raids (warrants if we’re being honest here) are a good thing and we should keep utilizing them.” They may have had a reaction to other aspects of the mission like killing an innocent civilian, but the concept of no-knock warrants probably isn’t on anyone’s radar. I just don’t think Activision or IW was seeking to send a message about them or to promote them positively.

                          If I’m sitting down to use my brain I would probably pick something like Crusader Kings and not a first person shooter like Modern Warfare.
                          Essentially what I was trying to say, but you put it much better.

                          Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
                          “No one is more hated than he who speaks the truth.”


                          ― Plato

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                          • Hooe
                            Hall Of Fame
                            • Aug 2002
                            • 21554

                            #28
                            Re: Six Days in Fallujah

                            Per GamesIndustry.biz, the Council on American-Islamic Relations, a Muslim advocacy group, has called upon Sony, Microsoft, and Valve to not list Six Days In Fallujah on their respective online marketplaces, citing its problematic representation of Muslims and Iraqi citizens.

                            I very much doubt Valve listens to this. Microsoft and Sony could fail the game from cert given that misrepresenting real-life war crimes arguably is a violation of their content standards, but I also think that's an uphill battle.

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                            • canes21
                              Hall Of Fame
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 22910

                              #29
                              Re: Six Days in Fallujah

                              “We call on Microsoft, Sony and Valve to ban their platforms from hosting ‘Six Days in Fallujah,’ an Arab murder simulator that will only normalize violence against Muslims in America and around the world.”

                              It's hard to take that kind of hyperbole serious. If you want to bring up points about the inaccuracy of the game, fine. Saying something like that just takes your validity away instantly in my mind. The game isn't "normalizing" the murder of Muslims.

                              It's 2021 and people still think video games cause violence.
                              “No one is more hated than he who speaks the truth.”


                              ― Plato

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                              • dickey1331
                                Everyday is Faceurary!
                                • Sep 2009
                                • 14285

                                #30
                                Six Days in Fallujah

                                Originally posted by CM Hooe
                                Per GamesIndustry.biz, the Council on American-Islamic Relations, a Muslim advocacy group, has called upon Sony, Microsoft, and Valve to not list Six Days In Fallujah on their respective online marketplaces, citing its problematic representation of Muslims and Iraqi citizens.



                                I very much doubt Valve listens to this. Microsoft and Sony could fail the game from cert given that misrepresenting real-life war crimes arguably is a violation of their content standards, but I also think that's an uphill battle.


                                CAIR has an interesting past. I’m not sure they are a great organization to organize a boycott.


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                                Last edited by dickey1331; 04-09-2021, 10:43 AM.
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