Market down 450+ pts

[fistofrage]

Re: Market down 450+ pts

Heh, yeah, I'm basically a socialist in terms of what I think is "right" in the world. I don't think that there's a reason for people to be that rich, more or less... tax equality be damned. And yeah, a good point about the rest of the world having to follow the same ethos if there is to be true capitalism in any real sense -- that's why I find it so frustrating to argue with someone who is acting as if that wasn't the case.

Hard to toe the TOS line in this thread.. kinda surprised it hasn't been closed yet actually.. heh..

Its OK to support socialism. Its going to happen sooner or later anyway unless the populations stop growing and technology stops reducing jobs. But there still has to be a major incentive for innovation. I don't mind people getting filthy stinking rich if they invent something of use.

Also the very rich in our country are taxed pretty high as it is. You'll notice that most have foundations that support their philanthropies. They have to or Uncle Sam will just tax it away. So there already is socialism to some degree. I would much rather these private foundations support the needy than the government. The government simply shouldn't be in charge of handling money in any capacity. They are completely innefficient with their use of funds.

[Stumbleweed]

Re: Market down 450+ pts

"But there still has to be a major incentive for innovation."

I agree, which is why I fully support tax breaks for companies who implement green energy improvements, aid in the research in those areas, etc. -- you definitely need to reward innovation, or nothing large-scale will get done. I don't support giving tax breaks to oil companies, weapons manufacturers, etc. because they aren't working in the public interest except in a very limited way (building $50 million fighter jets may one day save us from a yet-to-be-named enemy that still uses an air force).

I'm aware that many of the major innovations that mold our lives today came from weapons research, but that's in large part because the military-industrial complex is absolutely flooded with cash and has been for quite some time, making those types of contracts more attractive than others (green energy for example), epsecially with the trend of no-bid and limited competition contracts that took hold. Flood another industry that can be seen as inherently (or at least primarily) beneficial with that kind of money/incentives, and the innovations will follow.

Healthcare is where is really starts to get fuzzy in my view, because pharmaceutical companies are both a societal good and evil, whereas investing in something like education is argued to benefit everyone in a nation with public schooling. But yeah, this whole thing is insanely complicated and there are bunch of differeing solutions for our problems.. but I think we can all agree that someone needs to do something haha..

And I love that the billionaires of the world have to spend their money on things like the Gates Foundation to avoid it being taxed. They have more money than they need, so why not pass it along to people who need it more? They're essentially doing direct socialism instead of letting the government handle it, so in your view (and mine as well), it's more efficient that way. So yes, more taxes on the richest 1%. Seems like they're still doing okay for themselves despite that, and if their money can be put to good use by a charitable organization, then that's all for the better.

[fistofrage]

Re: Market down 450+ pts

"But there still has to be a major incentive for innovation."

I agree, which is why I fully support tax breaks for companies who implement green energy improvements, aid in the research in those areas, etc. -- you definitely need to reward innovation, or nothing large-scale will get done. I don't support giving tax breaks to oil companies, weapons manufacturers, etc. because they aren't working in the public interest except in a very limited way (building $50 million fighter jets may one day save us from a yet-to-be-named enemy that still uses an air force).

I'm aware that many of the major innovations that mold our lives today came from weapons research, but that's in large part because the military-industrial complex is absolutely flooded with cash and has been for quite some time, making those types of contracts more attractive than others (green energy for example), epsecially with the trend of no-bid and limited competition contracts that took hold. Flood another industry that can be seen as inherently (or at least primarily) beneficial with that kind of money/incentives, and the innovations will follow.

Healthcare is where is really starts to get fuzzy in my view, because pharmaceutical companies are both a societal good and evil, whereas investing in something like education is argued to benefit everyone in a nation with public schooling. But yeah, this whole thing is insanely complicated and there are bunch of differeing solutions for our problems.. but I think we can all agree that someone needs to do something haha..

And I love that the billionaires of the world have to spend their money on things like the Gates Foundation to avoid it being taxed. They have more money than they need, so why not pass it along to people who need it more? They're essentially doing direct socialism instead of letting the government handle it, so in your view (and mine as well), it's more efficient that way. So yes, more taxes on the richest 1%. Seems like they're still doing okay for themselves despite that, and if their money can be put to good use by a charitable organization, then that's all for the better.

What you got to understand is that the political spectrum isn't a straight line. Its really more like a circle. On the far left is communism, on the far right is facism. But when you look at communism and facism, they are almst the same, especially in they way they have been practiced in the 20th century.

So someone who is very left and someone who is very right could be closer to eachother than they imagined. The bottom line is that I think we can all agree that we want what will be best for society and especially for future generations. And big government inneficiently using our funds isn't going to help anyone achieve their goals.

[yamabushi]

Re: Market down 450+ pts

Heh, yeah, I'm basically a socialist in terms of what I think is "right" in the world. I don't think that there's a reason for people to be that rich, more or less... tax equality be damned. And yeah, a good point about the rest of the world having to follow the same ethos if there is to be true capitalism in any real sense -- that's why I find it so frustrating to argue with someone who is acting as if that wasn't the case.

Hard to toe the TOS line in this thread.. kinda surprised it hasn't been closed yet actually.. heh..

So wrong on so many levels.... my head hurts.
Taking away motivation to succeed, Brilliant.

[Stumbleweed]

Re: Market down 450+ pts

Having an income higher than 95% of others is still something that these people can strive for. that's something to be proud of I guess. But the disparity between those at the very top and the 90% of people who are wage-earners is WAY too big, which is why I say that "people don't need to be [i]that] rich". Sorry you don't agree, but that doesn't surprise me at all. Enjoy your New Gilded Age, Carnegie.

And I never said that you're wrong, and I'd assume that you could afford me the same level of respect, but was apparently wrong... but I've found that is typical of those who are are in your "location". It's all ideas, and neither one of us is "right", I hope you realize that.

And fistofrage, I'm a political science student and am well aware of the circular political spectrum. Stalin was technically a leftist, as was Mao, but the infusion of militarism and authoritarian rule makes them closer to Hitler than to Ralph Nader.. I get that. And I don't think we can agree that everyone wants the best for everyone else, because if that were true, the richest 5% wouldn't have more wealth than the bottom 90% combined. I think that many people are extremely self-interested and could honestly care less if the rest of the world evaporated into space as long as the money keeps rolling in.

[TheMatrix31]

Re: Market down 450+ pts

Gonna lock this up. It's gotten off the market subject and taken on discussion of socialism, capitalism, the political spectrum, and all sorts of other stuff.