Market down 450+ pts

[Double Eights]

Re: Market down 450+ pts

WAMU ex-CEO made $19 million for 3 weeks of "work" in this whole fiasco. He was hired 3 weeks ago with a 7.5 million signing bonus and a 11.5 million severance package. He made $44 per second while he was there.

This is the problem with the bailout, our tax $ are in this clown's pockets.

'No taxation without representation!'

What happened to this country?

[pfunk880]

Re: Market down 450+ pts

WAMU ex-CEO made $19 million for 3 weeks of "work" in this whole fiasco. He was hired 3 weeks ago with a 7.5 million signing bonus and a 11.5 million severance package. He made $44 per second while he was there.

This is the problem with the bailout, our tax $ are in this clown's pockets.

****!

[Stumbleweed]

Re: Market down 450+ pts

WAMU ex-CEO made $19 million for 3 weeks of "work" in this whole fiasco. He was hired 3 weeks ago with a 7.5 million signing bonus and a 11.5 million severance package. He made $44 per second while he was there.

This is the problem with the bailout, our tax $ are in this clown's pockets.

Yep.

RE: yamabushi, so you'd rather have your money and the financial sector in the hands of freeloading douchebags like this? I'll take the DMV.

[yamabushi]

Re: Market down 450+ pts

Yep.

RE: yamabushi, so you'd rather have your money and the financial sector in the hands of freeloading douchebags like this? I'll take the DMV.

Those freeloading d-bags were doing fine until Big Govt stuck their nose where it didnt belong.

Govt interference caused the crisis to begin with (see my sig) So more govt meddling will help slove it? I dont think so.

[Stumbleweed]

Re: Market down 450+ pts

Yes, the CRA is partly at fault, but you're kidding me if you think the greed from the speculators selling these bad loans at a profit as well as the constant interest rate lowering by the Fed didn't play equally as large of a part. Show me where your fabled free market has ever existed and succeeded in its true form (ie. completely without government 'interference') and then we'll talk. Regulation is a fact of life because human greed will always cause inequities that need to be addressed within society -- the private sector has repeatedly shown a disregard for addressing those needs, so the government steps in. It's clear that we have a fundamental disagreement about the nature of government and who it should serve, so I'll just table this since political stuff is against the TOS..

But it's nice to see that people who believe the same things you do are doing so well for themselves, getting millions of dollars of taxpayer and shareholder money for doing a terrible job and running their companies into the ground. In the last case with WAMu, the guy didn't even really do anything of note and still walked away with $44 mil. That's the 'free market' for you. I'm sure the pro-free market auto companies appreciate the $25 billion that we quietly gave them last week as well. Capitalism is surely working, and thousands in Michigan are out of work thanks to its wonders.

The housing issues exacerbated by the CRA is just a part of this -- it's the biggest part of it right now, but this is coming down the pike as well. This is just a symptom of a much larger problem of American entitlement (aka "the dream"), the dominance of corporate culture and the rights that they're afforded, and the influence of money and industry upon our elected officials. This will get worse before it gets better.. major changes are needed, and "getting the government out of business" isn't it.

(from: http://www.247wallst.com/2008/10/home-loans-join.html)

Home Loans Joined By Car Loans And Credit Cards

While the market was busy looking at all of those "For Sale" signs around most neighborhoods, it forgot that people also put three or four expensive cars in their driveways and bought $5,000 home entertainment centers.

Someone has to pay for all of that hardware, but it is not going to be the people who bought it. They are broke and jobless. The repo men are being sent from car loan companies and Best Buy (BBY) to get the stuff back. Unfortunately, used cars and consumer electronics have not held their value.

MarketWatch reports that "According to Innovest StrategicValue Advisors, banks will charge off $18.6 billion in delinquent credit-card accounts in the first quarter of 2009 and $96 billion in all of 2009, more than double the research firm's forecast for all of this year." That may be a drop in the bucket compared with what banks and operations like GMAC will be hit with from bad car loans.

The problem is not as simple as bad loans. These credits were securitized and chopped into tranches the same way that mortgages were. In other words, there is another wave of toxic securities emerging. The $700 billion government bailout almost certainly does not take into account a future catastrophic failure of a set of assets which are not tied directly to the housing market.

The IMF says that losses related to mortgages will cause $1 trillion of write-offs spread across the world's banks. Car and credit card derivatives may not represent as big a pool, but, like toxic paper tied to mortgages, no one knew how great the problem was until it was one top of them.

The credit default disaster has another chapter coming next year."

[yamabushi]

Re: Market down 450+ pts

CRA is more then partly at fault. And nobody said speculators dont share some blame.

Sadly I cant show you were a absolute 'free market' has exsisted and worked because govts wont allow it.
If a free market were allowed to exsist tax payer money wouldnt be going to any of these corps. The would sink or swim on their own.

Theres a fundamental question you & everyone must ask themselves: Who knows better what to do with Your money, You or the Goverment?

[Stumbleweed]

Re: Market down 450+ pts

Yes, but individual citizens can't pay for public use things such as roads, telephone lines, sewers, etc., on their own, so that's basically a straw man argument. Thanks for playing though.

EDIT: Heh, I like your "location" by the way. As if I couldn't tell...

[stewaat]

Re: Market down 450+ pts

Well they're gonna accept the bill tonight and hopefully there's a nice jump in the market tomorrow. I'll at least try and capitalize on this myself.

I did but National City @ $2.00 and currently it's $2.91

Hooray!

[yamabushi]

Re: Market down 450+ pts

Yes, but individual citizens can't pay for public use things such as roads, telephone lines, sewers, etc., on their own, so that's basically a straw man argument. Thanks for playing though.

EDIT: Heh, I like your "location" by the way. As if I couldn't tell...

Yes, because I clearly called for an abolishing of all govt run municipal services.....
and Im the one with the straw-man argument.

I also like how those in a different 'location' are the most out spoken against 'big' business and the corruption there in, But support and encourage the growth of the Biggest, Most Bloated, Most Corrupt business there is; goverment.
Sweet, sweet hipocrisy.

And you didnt answer my question.

[Stumbleweed]

Re: Market down 450+ pts

Yet the federal government has grown considerably over the last 8 years by nearly every measure... yep. Gotcha.

And to answer your question (which is extremely vague and doesn't provide the context necessary), some people know what to do with their money and others don't (as evidenced by this crisis). I think the government has a duty to provide certain services to its citizens as well as basic protection, and money must come from the citizens in order to accomplish that. I don't see what's so hard to understand there. It's a fact of life, and this idealized free market simply has not and cannot exist except in small enclaves, much like true communism will never exist outside of small-population communes.

Even the godfather of capitalism warned against corporate excess and argued that government regulation is necessary. I understand the argument that "the market will work everything out", but considering the glaring lack of evidence supporting that theory, as well as my basic convictions that the rich and greedy should not be allowed to build their fortunes on the backs of the poor unfettered, and I simply disagree.

[BTB]

Re: Market down 450+ pts

I think it's safe to say the current crisis is a combination of MANY factors. People on both sides need to step back and realize its neither all one sides fault or all the others. Its completely a combination. I don't think yamabushi or stumbleweed are either 100% correct in what they say, nor are you wrong.

But the reason our country has been the most prosperous is because we have people on both sides so adamant about their beliefs that we generally find a good common ground to solve our problems.

That's my belief at least.

[Stumbleweed]

Re: Market down 450+ pts

And yeah, it looks like this bailout will be going through... it's basically cleared the Senate today, but the House might still be a different story if their constituents are really blowing up the phones arguing against it...

[TheMatrix31]

Re: Market down 450+ pts

Cool down with the specific government/political talk.

[fistofrage]

Re: Market down 450+ pts

Yet the federal government has grown considerably over the last 8 years by nearly every measure... yep. Gotcha.

And to answer your question (which is extremely vague and doesn't provide the context necessary), some people know what to do with their money and others don't (as evidenced by this crisis). I think the government has a duty to provide certain services to its citizens as well as basic protection, and money must come from the citizens in order to accomplish that. I don't see what's so hard to understand there. It's a fact of life, and this idealized free market simply has not and cannot exist except in small enclaves, much like true communism will never exist outside of small-population communes.

Even the godfather of capitalism warned against corporate excess and argued that government regulation is necessary. I understand the argument that "the market will work everything out", but considering the glaring lack of evidence supporting that theory, as well as my basic convictions that the rich and greedy should not be allowed to build their fortunes on the backs of the poor unfettered, and I simply disagree.

The issue is we have never seen a completely free market nor will we. The market would work everything out, but every nation on earth would have to be playing by the same rules. Government interaction is necessary only to ensure that proper safety standards and work conditions are met. The market should decide the wages.


You say alot when you say your convictions are rich and greedy should not be allowed to build their fortunes on the backs of the poor unfettered. I think thats the socialist manifesto. Its worse when any government gets involved. The government doesn't know how to best spend money, privatize any government agency and you will see efficiencies obtained.

I could go on forever, but this has probably already gotten too political.

[Stumbleweed]

Re: Market down 450+ pts

Heh, yeah, I'm basically a socialist in terms of what I think is "right" in the world. I don't think that there's a reason for people to be that rich, more or less... tax equality be damned. And yeah, a good point about the rest of the world having to follow the same ethos if there is to be true capitalism in any real sense -- that's why I find it so frustrating to argue with someone who is acting as if that wasn't the case.

Hard to toe the TOS line in this thread.. kinda surprised it hasn't been closed yet actually.. heh..