Discuss.

[jfsolo]

Re: Discuss.

This morning my friend and I were talking in the parking lot after playing ball. An officer pulls a woman over into the lot where we're at, goes to the window and speaks to her for a minute or so. The conversation is short and civil and they both leave, clearly without her having received a ticket.

I told my boy, that although I've been pulled over/stopped on the street in a few instances that could be considered a "nuisance stop", only once did I get a ticket.

Even if you feel you've been wronged, following directions and being respectful is always the way to go. Being defiant and belligerent is just begging for something bad to happen. Choose your battles wisely.

Unless you've been unlucky enough to encountered one of those rare Super A-Holes who has made up his mind to jam you up, you can often ameliorate the situation, by just keeping an even keel.

Putting your hands on an Officer? You've just guaranteed an outcome that ranges from very bad to tragic.

[tsalbysp]

Re: Discuss.

Thank you, I needed a good laugh.

When she pushed the cop she committed the crime of assaulting a police officer, thus the force used in an attempt to subdue her was justified as it was reasonably proportional to the force she used against him. Prior to that he had the right to arrest her after he witnessed her jaywalking, especially if as said she was ignoring his request for her to produce identification. So as such all of his actions were justified and proper.

The officer never told the girls they were being detained. He never said they were under arrest.

According to Kato, he went over and physically grabbed the girl by the arm. Unless he is making an arrest, he has absolutely no authority to make physical contact. He was in violation of the law by physically grabbing her by the arm, and dragging her away. She was not resisting arrest because he was not making an arrest.

That initial blunder by the officer leaves her to be able to defend herself. She wasn't aware she committed any crime, she wasn't aware she was under arrest. All she knew was that a cop was physically assaulting her.

A cop can ask you to do anything, and unless s/he tells you that you are being detained or are under arrest, you aren't required to do anything they say. A cop can stop you and ask you for your ID, where you're going, where you just came from, and so on and so forth. However, you aren't obliged to say anything, and you aren't obliged to remain in their presence. Unless they specifically tell you that you are under arrest or being detained, you are free to go.

She was free to go.

[stewaat]

Re: Discuss.

No. That isn't by the letter of the law.

An officer cannot lay his hands on an individual, unless making an arrest or checking for weapons. His physical assault on the girl in brown was in violation of the law, and the girl in pink had every right to defend the girl in brown.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA



OMG I'm crying...

HAHAHAHAHAHA

[MassNole]

Re: Discuss.

One of the women, later identified as a 19 year old, began to walk away from the scene despite the officer's instructions, prompting the officer to walk over to her and escort her back to his patrol car.



The girl then "began to tense up her arm, and pull away from the officer while yelling at him," investigators said. The officer told the girl to place her hands on his patrol car, but she refused. When the officer tried to grab hold of her, "she pulled away and twisted, breaking free of the officer's grip several times," the blotter report said.

It clearly sounds as if he was in the process of either making an arrest or conducting a Terry stop, which her actions gave him the right to do. She resisted from there and that was that. If he is charged with anything it will be solely politically motivated.

[NoDakHusker]

Re: Discuss.

This morning my friend and I were talking in the parking lot after playing ball. An officer pulls a woman over into the lot where we're at, goes to the window and speaks to her for a minute or so. The conversation is short and civil and they both leave, clearly without her having received a ticket.

I told my boy, that although I've been pulled over/stopped on the street in a few instances that could be considered a "nuisance stop", only once did I get a ticket.

Even if you feel you've been wronged, following directions and being respectful is always the way to go. Being defiant and belligerent is just begging for something bad to happen. Choose your battles wisely.

Unless you've been unlucky enough to encountered one of those rare Super A-Holes who has made up his mind to jam you up, you can often ameliorate the situation, by just keeping an even keel.

Putting your hands on an Officer? You've just guaranteed an outcome that ranges from very bad to tragic.

+1. Even if you aren't in the wrong, or believe you aren't, showing respect for an officer is the best you can do. You might even get some leniency for being compliant(especially if it's a very minor offense). Obviously it depends on the officer you're dealing with and the extent of your violation, but getting physical with an officer is not acceptable..in any case.

[mgoblue]

Re: Discuss.

It clearly sounds as if he was in the process of either making an arrest or conducting a Terry stop, which her actions gave him the right to do. She resisted from there and that was that. If he is charged with anything it will be solely politically motivated.

I saw in an article that he was trying to give her a citation...so he was trying to do something.

[stewaat]

Re: Discuss.

The officer never told the girls they were being detained. He never said they were under arrest.

According to Kato, he went over and physically grabbed the girl by the arm. Unless he is making an arrest, he has absolutely no authority to make physical contact. He was in violation of the law by physically grabbing her by the arm, and dragging her away. She was not resisting arrest because he was not making an arrest.

That initial blunder by the officer leaves her to be able to defend herself. She wasn't aware she committed any crime, she wasn't aware she was under arrest. All she knew was that a cop was physically assaulting her.

A cop can ask you to do anything, and unless s/he tells you that you are being detained or are under arrest, you aren't required to do anything they say. A cop can stop you and ask you for your ID, where you're going, where you just came from, and so on and so forth. However, you aren't obliged to say anything, and you aren't obliged to remain in their presence. Unless they specifically tell you that you are under arrest or being detained, you are free to go.

She was free to go.

You are incorrect.

If a cop stops you, you are by law detained at that moment.

Saying "Come here ma'am" is in fact detaining somebody. Saying "Ma'am do you mind if I talk to you for a minute?" is not a detainment.

He observed the girls jaywalking, which is justification to detain them. He didn't randomly walk up to a girl and grab her, like you're making it sound.

[tsalbysp]

Re: Discuss.

I saw in an article that he was trying to give her a citation...so he was trying to do something.

The Katu article just made it sound like he asked the girls to come over and talk to him. If he wasn't attempting to make an arrest or issue a citation, and was simply asking the girls to come over and talk to him, they have no obligation to comply.

If he was actually trying to give her a citation, and made it clear she was being detained at the moment, then I don't think he is in the wrong. The Katu article made it sound like he never made it clear they were in violation of a law.

[stewaat]

Re: Discuss.

LOL btw did you even read that KATO article? If so...then wow @ your comments

[stewaat]

Re: Discuss.

"The officer was talking to the man when he saw four young women jaywalk across the same street at the same spot. The officer asked the women to step over to his patrol car, but the women were being 'verbally antagonistic toward the officer'. One of the women, later identified as a 19 year old, began to walk away from the scene despite the officer's instructions, prompting the officer to walk over to her and escort her back to his patrol car. "

How hard is it to understand this?

But yea you're right. I mean seriously these girls appear to be outstanding citizens who are completely respectful of authority figures. I mean jaywalking isn't serious...cars will never hit you and you won't cause accidents by obstructing traffic. I guess I'll never fit in this world as I can't be on the intellectual level of those who observe these incidents and draw these conclusions.

[NoDakHusker]

Re: Discuss.

The Katu article just made it sound like he asked the girls to come over and talk to him. If he wasn't attempting to make an arrest or issue a citation, and was simply asking the girls to come over and talk to him, they have no obligation to comply.

If he was actually trying to give her a citation, and made it clear she was being detained at the moment, then I don't think he is in the wrong. The Katu article made it sound like he never made it clear they were in violation of a law.

Since when do police officers randomly stop their car and ask people to come over and talk to them for no reason? If I see a cop stop his car, get out and asks me to come talk to him, I'd assume there was a violation of the law.

[tsalbysp]

Re: Discuss.

"The officer was talking to the man when he saw four young women jaywalk across the same street at the same spot. The officer asked the women to step over to his patrol car, but the women were being 'verbally antagonistic toward the officer'. One of the women, later identified as a 19 year old, began to walk away from the scene despite the officer's instructions, prompting the officer to walk over to her and escort her back to his patrol car. "

How hard is it to understand this?

You have no obligation to comply with such a request, unless the officer makes it clear you have violated a law and are being detained/under arrest.

You are only obliged to follow the orders of an officer when you are being detained. According to the article, it isn't clear whether or not he ever made it clear she was being detained.

Like I said earlier, if a cop comes up to you on a sidewalk and asks for your ID, you have absolutely zero obligation to show him anything.

[stewaat]

Re: Discuss.

Well clearly when he went over to her after the initial request she was detained. He can escort her over to his vehicle. Soft empty hand control is 100% justified in this matter, therefore there was no assault by the officer at this point.

Also, there is a huge difference between asked and told. The person quoted is more than likely incorrect in their usage of words.

[stewaat]

Re: Discuss.

Since when do police officers randomly stop their car and ask people to come over and talk to them for no reason? If I see a cop stop his car, get out and asks me to come talk to him, I'd assume there was a violation of the law.

I do. If I ask a person who walks away from me when I ask them if they wouldn't mind talking with me for a minute I can't do anything about it. I'm not trying to violate their 4th amendment rights.

In this case, she violated a state ordinance or law or G.S., which means the Officer was justified in detaining her. You don't need to tell somebody they are detained. You can order them to come over here, especially when they are in violation of a law/statute/ordinance.

You can detain individuals who haven't even broken the law but you have reasonable suspicion to believe they may have.

Traffic stops are detainment on reasonable suspicion. You don't have to violate the law to be pulled over.

[tsalbysp]

Re: Discuss.

Well clearly when he went over to her after the initial request she was detained. He can escort her over to his vehicle. Soft empty hand control is 100% justified in this matter, therefore there was no assault by the officer at this point.

It all depends on how the incident went down:

Situation A)

Cop: "Stop you're under arrest."
Girl: "Blow it out your ***."
*Cop grabs girl*

Acceptable.

Situation B)

Cop: "Hey, you, come here."
Girl: "Blow it out your ***."
*Cop grabs girl*

Not acceptable.

The article isn't clear whether or not the incident went the path of A or B. I'm just trying to point out that, if the officer never made it clear that she did something wrong and was being detained, she doesn't have to listen to a word he says.

If it turns out he did make it clear that she did something wrong and that she was being detained, I'll be on the side of the cop. Once he makes he clear that she's under arrest/being detained, she has the obligation to comply with his orders. I just don't know whether or not he made it clear or not that she was being detained.

Edit: The article made it sound like this could have happened:

Girl was walking with her friends across a street. Cop came up to them and started talking. She didn't care to hear what he had to say, so she walked away. Cop yelled at her "Hey, I'm not done with you!" and she kept walking and waved her arm in a "piss off" manner. Cop ran after her and grabbed her by the arm.

It isn't clear whether or not the cop ever said anything about jaywalking, violation of a law, detainment, being under arrest, issuance of a citation. If he had mentioned any of those terms, and made it clear that the girls were being detained and had violated a law, like I said, I'd be in his corner. However, for all I know, he simply went up to them and said "What's your name, give me your ID." If that's all he did, she had every right to tell him to piss off.